More than half of it is either Soviet-made (FAB bombs, GSh-23L cannon or the UB rocket pods), or derived from Soviet-made stuff (LVB-250F or the Grom mentioned by yourself comes to mind).
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Half of the weaponry, plus some assorted systems are Russian/Soviet, the engine and the ejector seat is British, the HUD and the avionics are French. It has enough ties to all three possible candidates. The Yugo TT would be the best place for it, but being in the Russian TT is also valid in my opinion.
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these as well as the T90 no one wnated mate.
Nothing was soviet made, everything was made in Yugoslavia minus the Maverick
GSh-23 cannons were Soviet-made - as their only manufacturer was the TsNIITochMash - among others, and the others - like the FAB bombs or the rocket pods - were license produced in Yugoslavia.
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You are correct about the cannons, but the FABs and pods were also produced in Yugoslavia. And the only reason Yugoslavia did not produce the GSh-23 cannons was due to stockpiles of them already in inventory.
The most complicated parts of the aircraft where localy produced like the British licenced engines, mix of French, British, and USA licenced avionics and other parts, especially the French ones for the modernised Orao…
And again, it has the least amount of link with the USSR. More then anything it should be in the British or French TT… Not to mention the Maverick…
The GROM uses some USSR parts and is nothing like the Kh23. It has a rear-facing booster and then in the middle a sustainer motor from the Kh23, different weights, warheads, guidance, and more.
Mate, I’ve literally said that the FABs and the pods were made in Yugoslavia under license.
As far as I can recall, the Orao used little if any US made subsystems/avionics. The engine was a modification of the Bristol Siddeley Viper, just like the radios (Racal, produced under license) the RWR and the chaff/flare dispensers were Soviet, the HUD and the fire control on the M1A variant is French (Thomson-CSF), and on the original it was at least partially British (Ferranti).
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Yes, and the Mavericks were just Christmas ornaments…
US:
Honeywell SGP-500 - twin-gyroscope platform/navigation reference system.
Rockwell Collins VIR-30 - VOR/ILS navigation and landing receiver; some references alternatively identify a Collins DME-40 distance-measuring unit.
French - Thomson-CSF VE-120T HUD
British - GEC-Marconi three-axis stability-augmentation system
Warning receivers were domestically made…
And plenty more.
It was made and designed on purpose to use Western avionics, in contrast to the Romanian version. That one should have been added to the USSR TT.
I’ve said subsystems and avionics. Since when does a Maverick missile is classified as a part of the avionics?
Soviet SPO-10 “Sirena” produced under license, just like on the MiG-21s in service with the YuAF back then. Case is similar with the IFF: SRZO-2M “Khrom-Nikel”, but that one was sourced directly from the USSR.
They’ve tried to fit as many Western nav/comms system as possible, yet still not every system was Western. Acutally they had a good enough reason to fit either original or license-made Western avionics: most of those were carried over from the abortive Folland Gnat deal.
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The upgrade to fit Mavericks was an entire subsystem, like you said… Also I stated just some of the US parts that are vital to the Avionics suite just underneath that…
And back to the main point of the entire conversation before you started cherry picking… The majority of the design, components, avionics, subsystems and any other words you want to find. Are of Western origin for the J-22 and even more for the J-22M1A.
And again like many here have already said. It makes 10x more sense for the J-22M1A to be in the British or French TT then the Russian one.
Game-wise, yes it fills the Russian lineup better then any other.
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And that doesn’t necessarily mean US components were used outside the missile proper. Singaporean Hunters were also able to carry the Maverick, but the necessary wiring and upgrade to the fire control system came from ST Aerospace, then known as SAI.
First of all, you’ve made a factually wrong claim when you stated, quote: “Nothing was soviet made, everything was made in Yugoslavia minus the Maverick”. If you call that cherry picking, so be it. Anyhow: at least half of the weaponry, parts of the avionics (IFF, RWR, chaff/flare dispensers) is either Soviet-made, Soviet-designed produced under license, or Soviet-influenced. Does it contain a significant amount of British and French equipment? Without a doubt, I did not deny that for a second.
You’ve just contradicted your first sentence with the second sentence.
And besides: why would it make 10x more sense to add the J-22M1A to the French or to the British tree, when game-wise the avionics matter a lot less than the armament? As we’ve discussed: half of the armament is Soviet or Soviet-derived, the other half is Yugoslav, plus there’s the Maverick.
Sourced from Arsenal 97, Magazin Odbrana, MOD sites, old manuals, and translated via ChatGPT and formatted. And these are old sources, mostly for older J-22 Oraos, from base versions to upgrades till the late 90s
And this is not a list for the J-22M1A that has even less to noone Soviet/Russian influence
ENGINES
* Viper engines → United Kingdom / licensed Yugoslav production
EJECTION SEATS
* Martin-Baker seats → United Kingdom
STARTER / GENERATORS
* Lucas systems → United Kingdom
FLIGHT CONTROL / STABILITY
* Marconi stability system → United Kingdom
* Dowty actuators → United Kingdom
NAVIGATION (different sources for Attack type/Reconnaissance Type)
* Collins VIR-30 → United States
* Collins DME-40 → United States
* Marconi AD370B → United Kingdom
* Marconi AD-660 → United Kingdom
* VARK-01 → Yugoslavia
COMMUNICATIONS (different sources for Attack type/Reconnaissance Type)
* Kondor → Yugoslavia
* Mini Kobac → Yugoslavia
HUD / SIGHTING (different sources for Attack type/Reconnaissance Type)
* VE-120TY / VE-120T → likely France / Thomson-CSF
* Ferranti ISIS D-282 → United Kingdom, reported in some sources
RECONNAISSANCE (different sources for Attack type/Reconnaissance Type)
* Ericsson SLAR → Sweden
* ICLS-401 IR scanner → United Kingdom
* Vinten cameras → United Kingdom
* A-39 camera → USSR
* AŠČAFA-5M camera → USSR
SELF-PROTECTION / EW (different sources for Attack type/Reconnaissance Type)
* SO-1 RWR → Yugoslavia (No evidence it is Soviet-licensed or Soviet-derived.)
* POYR-S → Yugoslavia (No evidence it is Soviet-licensed or Soviet-derived.)
* POYR-L → Yugoslavia (No evidence it is Soviet-licensed or Soviet-derived.)
* UPOR → Yugoslavia (No evidence it is Soviet-licensed or Soviet-derived.)
AIRFRAME
* Airframe → Yugoslavia / Romania
PYLONS / STORES INTEGRATION
* Pylons and integration → Yugoslavia / Romania
WEAPONS:
WESTERN
* AGM-65B Maverick → United States
* LAU-117/A → United States
* Mk 82 → United States
* BL-755 → United Kingdom
* Durandal / SAPY → France
YUGOSLAV
* Grom / A-77 → Yugoslav, Kh-23-influenced
* BRZ-128 Munja → Yugoslavia
* PLAB-200 → Yugoslavia
* PLAB-350 → Yugoslavia
* IC-1 flare → Yugoslavia, no information of origin, developed and produced in Yugoslavia
* PA-1 chaff → Yugoslavia, no information of origin, developed and produced in Yugoslavia
* FABs→ Yugoslav, USSR-influenced
SOVIET / EASTERN
* GSh-23L / GSh-23LY → USSR
* R-60 → USSR
* R-60M → USSR
* FOTAB-100 → USSR
I found absolutely 0 Soviet-made avionics, 0 official sources on any licensed Soviet avionics, as everything is Western or Yugoslav-designed. As for influence, maybe the main point of the J-22 Orao was to be a CAS aircraft. Designed to fight the Warsaw Pact, as that was the main threat… No point in having Soviet licenced systems / or Soviet made RWR… When it was designed to fight the Soviet Union… Hence, the predominance of Western-sourced parts.
Why do you think it has specific weapons like the AGM-65B Maverick, BL-755 cluster bomb, Durandal / SAPY. This was a specific design choice to stop the vast soviet armored/mechanized forces if they ever crossed the border. Look at the Airfield placements(Željava Air Base, one of the few), design choices, and you will come to realise that this aircraft was made to rely on Western-specific parts and weapons and not Soviet ones. Hence my comments about being 10x more sense for the J-22M1A to be in a British, French or even US TT.
As the original version was made to fight the Tanks that it will fight alongside now in-game.
As for the Modernised version, it will use 0 Soviet/Russian-influenced parts. And again will be dependent on many Western ones…
If you call the above half or more… I don’t know what to tell you. But one thing is for certain, the plane was made originally to fight the USSR. And to fight the same tanks that it will play alongside in-game
If all the armaments were added, it would have more Wester/Yugo ones then Soviet origin ones. And if that matters so much to you, the newer version the one that is comming to the game has 0 USSR/Russian weapons.
And for that matter, please tell me what weapons have Soviet/Russian influence or parts for the J-22M1A. All of them were new designs/redesigns and fully Serbian-made.
.
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Some info was either lost in translation, or omitted - whether accidentally or intentionally, irrelevant.
J-22 Orao, used flares derived from the Soviet PPI-50 if a ‘91 issue of the World Air Journal can be trusted as a source. The list also omits the L-57-16 rocket pod, which is a direct copy of the Soviet UB-16-57 rocket pod, plus while the FAB bombs were Yugo made, the design is Soviet. SO-1 RWR drew heavily from the SPO-10 “Sirena”. Your list also contains no references to the IFF system, which was the SRZO-2M "Khrom-Nikel’" like I’ve mentioned. No wonders, that must’ve been classified when your older sources were originally published.
If there was no point in having Soviet-licensed/Soviet-made systems, then why is it wired to carry the R-60, why does it carry a GSh-23L as the gun armament, why have they based the Grom missile on the Kh-23 (the original Grom was essentially a Yugo-produced Kh-23 missile, the Grom-B contained a lot of local refinements and improvements)? A Mauser BK-27, a British ADEN, or a French DEFA, or even a WW2 vintage Nazi MG FF could’ve been mounted instead, if the main goal would’ve been total independence from Soviet-made or Soviet-derived systems. Same is the case with the R-60 and the Kh-23/Grom: a Matra Magic or a Nord AS-20 would’ve served the same purpose, yet they’ve went with Soviet and Soviet-derived stuff. Why exactly if there was no point in having Soviet or Soviet-derived equipment? What you say does not make any sense.
The plane was made to fight the USSR? To an extent, yes, but to the very same extent it was made to fight NATO as well, and on top of that, it actually fought against NATO-backed forces after the dissolution of SFRY.
And for that matter, the laser-guided bombs carried by the M1A were based on FAB bombs, not to mention that the Orao-2 variant had the capability to carry R-73 missiles, which was most likely retained by the M1A.
The sources I quoted are MOD magazines and official Serbian sources. So no it cant be trusted more then the Serbian ones. But even then the Serbian sources did not say anything about the design origin (for the Flares and Chaff) just that is made in Yugoslavia
I did forget to add the rocket pods, still of Yugo production/ USSR origin. And again, these were always more of training aids and for training than intended for use in any combat mission.
And again no official sources on whether it was licensed or even copied that I could find anywhere. The only source I could find was that it was: Yugoslav/Iskra system domestically produced and designed.
I found no official sources on the IFF, hence why I did not add it, the SRZO-2M “Khrom-Nikel’” was used in Yugoslavia for the MiG-21; from what I know, that does not = it was used for the J-22.
Also a note: Arsenal 97, Magazin Odbrana, MOD sites are all MOD origin sources.
Need to check some other forum posts, I think someone posted about the IFF
That is one of the problems. Please find me an image of the J-22 Orao carrying an R60. I would be grateful. I personally could not find a single one, and I think it is listed as a “possible capability” rather than anything else. Even the modernised J-22M1A somehow lost the ability to carry them on the wingtips, with 0 mentions of whether it can even carry them on the main pylons at all.
And a big reason Gaijin is not adding the R60s for the J-22M1A is that there is not enough information/video evidence that it can even carry it in the first place.
And even in airshows or military days when they show off armaments for planes they never add the R60s for viewing purposes, only list that it can carry it.
Like I said before, due to a large stockpile of them already from the Mig-21s
Again, tell me, did the Yugoslavs make their own systems or buy them from the USSR?
The J-22 was fully independent from any USSR components, as for the R60s I already said above it is even in question if they can use them, and the second thing is they were made to be CAS aircraft and any Air-to-Air capabilities were not needed at all.
Again with the cherry-picking, what does the R60s or even the cannons have to do with being independent from the USSR, the most important components, the avionics, are from the WEST, the Engines are domestically produced Western-licensed, as is almost every other system, and you pick the cannons to talk about?
The most advanced weapons, like the Mavericks and Cluster bombs from the US and UK respectivly where sourced from those states, and there are tons of photos of them carrying the stated weapons in contrast to the R60…
They are not an exact copy; they look different, and the name in Russian(фугасная авиационная бомба) is the same name for them in Serbo-Croatian, as the languages are similar, so they called their own redesign based on the Soviet FAB… The same…
Grom is nothing like the KH23, like I stated above, it has some soviet parts, some unknown ones, and some most likely US parts due to the way it functions (Booster is of unknown origin, and at the back, then the KH23 motor is used as a sustainer instead of as the main propulsion). IT IS NOT A COPY, it is a lot different than the KH23, also the way it is guided cannot be the same as it has a booster on the back instead of the command module. But that is just speculation based on how it looks, as even today, the original Grom has little to no info on it.
As for the GROM-B, it has removed all USSR/Russian parts and does not have the KH23 sustainer motor. Grom-B does not “contain local refinements and improvements”, when in the first place it was designed and made in Yugoslavia(Grom), and then the Grom-B is a fully new and modern weapon produced from scratch, not from old kits. (As was stated in some articles by Tango)
To an extent, it was made as an all-round CAS aircraft. But one thing that is for certain is that it was made to counter any Armored/mechanized assaults. And do you know witch alliance had the biggest border with Yugoslavia ?
Again, the naming does not mean it is an original USSR/Russian design; in Serbo-Croatian, it means Fugasna Avio Bomba (FAB). It was influenced by the USSR FABs, but it is not the same…
USSR/Russian FAB =/= Yugo/Serbian FAB (Domestic Yugoslav “FAB” bombs used the same naming convention as the USSR ones), different fillers, materials, and shape…
As for the R-73, I honestly don’t know.
But all in all I still think that it makes way more sense for the J-22M1A to be in a British, French or US TT than the Russian one…
This is the last post I will be making, and I did not have time to go into detail or to research it more. If you find more interesting sources, please post them. I like reading them when I have the time for it.
Ended up fighting the western coalition instead full stop.
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See this one, for example, which was uploaded to the following topic:
R-60 on the wingtip launch rail.
And so? If the main goal was to be totally independent from Soviet systems and ordnance, there wouldn’t have been any stockpile. Not to mention that, they wouldn’t have bought the MiG-21, if they wanted to be totally totally independent from Soviet hardware. Your point is leaky at best.
Again, tell me: does license production and/or modification of a Soviet design or equipment make it Yugoslav? FAB bombs were identical to the Soviet counterparts. GSh-23L cannons were Soviet-made. The IFF was also Soviet-made. The RWR was heavily based on a Soviet-design.
Just following your example.
The avionics are not the most important components, neither in reality, nor in-game. The weaponry is more important, and so is the fuselage and the engine. The avionics come fourth on the list of importance in the best case.
Yes, those are an exact copy of the Soviet M-54 and M-62 series of FAB bombs, down to the last bolt, just like the BDZ ejector rack on which its mounted.
What you said is true for the Grom-B, but not for the Grom. The Grom is a Yugo-made version of the command-guided Kh-23, while the Grom-B is basically the Yugoslav copy of the TV seeker from the Maverick mated to the body, rocket motor and warhead of the Kh-23.
It is a copy, rest assured. The Grom, just like the Kh-23 is command-guided. The Grom-B is TV guided, uses a seeker derived from the AGM-65 Maverick, but the missile body, the rocket motor and the warhead is essentially the same.
But let’s close this case, for once and for all, here’s a Yugoslav Grom:
Here’s a Soviet Kh-23:
Here’s a Grom-B:
The Yugoslav Grom and the Soviet Kh-23 is visually identical as you can see. Grom-B could trace back its origin to the Maverick (seeker head) and the Kh-23 (missile body, canards) at the same time.
All in all, I’ll stand by my point: it is good where it is, the only better place for it would be an independent Yugo techtree.
Non-functional prototype for viewing and testing purposes, the wingtips were there just to show what an upgrade can do. Never implemented. The project manager himself said it would be scrapped most likely years ago in an interview for Tango, if I remember correctly.
And again, no sources stating or images of any Air-to-Air missiles on any pre-existing pylon, not to mention that a mockup of a non-functioning plane that you share is known to everyone. And mistakenly reported 20x already.
If you equate cannons to avionics/engines that are 100x more complex to produce, then I don’t know what to tell you. I guess Yugoslavia was not sophisticated enough to produce cannons and replacement parts for an already existing inventory of weapons.
FABs were not identical at all. They were based on the Russian FABs, which is true.
As for the IFF and RWR, please share your source. Official Yugo/Serbian sources say they were produced and designed locally for the RWR, and no official information on the IFF.
(SO-1 RWR → produced and developed by Iskra, Yugoslavia.)
with no sources.
(The weaponry is more important) Are you serious? You went from stating that half of the Avionics is Soviet to then saying it is not important when I gave sources for said avionics… Not to mention the IJ-22 manuals before the aircraft even was armed, 1/3 of the instrument panel was in English, the other 2/3 in Serbo-Croatian… And here are pictures from the manual of some “important” parts… Like the aiming sight panel, and the arming panel… That use said weapons…
Totally wrong. You did not even have the decency to read what I wrote about the Grom, which has a booster and uses the KH23 motor as a sustainer instead of the main propulsion.
Also, it has a different mode of command as it DOES not have the KH23 command module on the back(Because it has a booster instead)
Look at the motor placement, the command module in the back… It looks totally different.
The Yugo Grom had the sustainer in the middle of the body, and a booster in the back, the command recievers where most likely in the stabilizers.
And even the image above you posted about the GROM shows that it is different, even from a wrong perspective
All I will say is that you must be blind or trolling for the sake of it.
Game-wise, I fully agree it is in a better place in the USSR TT by a long shot, lore/design-wise, not even close. As for a Yugo TT, yep.
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And please do tell, do the following bombs look like exact copies of Soviet FABs?
Like I said, the word FAB is the same in Serbo-Croatian. And even bombs that had no design influence from the USSR have the same name
https://krusik.rs/index.php/sr/vojni-program/fab-250-m79
https://krusik.rs/index.php/sr/vojni-program/fab-100-m80
And here the “new” locally designed “FAB-100 M80” on the first test aircraft for… Testing…
NOTE: They were able to use older stocks of Soviet type bombs, but the new bombs were designed and produced for the J-22 as new, more modern bombs.
Also, an image with new type domestically designed and produced bombs with the old Soviet type next to them:
Also, I read somewhere that the CCIP was correctly configured only for the new design bombs, but I can’t find that source
As of testing this thing; i’ve had 25km kills with it , why in christs name is it 9.0 xD, or is it once again only showing me the ARB BRs
Aye it’s bugged for me, it’s meant to eb 10.7 ? even then with 25km range weapons how even xD