(poll) MiG29S should have been added (should be) now and the SMT should have been kept for later

DEV Server General Discussion
#1

Before anyone screams at me saying that I am a crying US main, I have USSR air all unlocked but I do not have any 4th gen US fighter, check my profile id u don’t believe it.

I’ll go straight to the point: the reasons I am saying this are 2:
R-73 and how the MiG29SMT will impact the gameplay.
We are going forward in technology too fast.

Both of them are fairly simple to explain.
The MiG29S, unlike the SMT, can carry R60Ms, is still fox-3 capable if fox-3s are coming anytime soon, and is also lighter meaning that is better in a dogfight. It is also a much older plane, and is the last Soviet produced MiG29, which I believe gives it also a lot historical importance.
From a gameplay POV the MiG29S would have featured a small upgrade in radar range over the MiG29A (which is more than enough to fire the R27er at max range, the Zhuk radar (yak141 and mig29smt radar) capabilities are overkill right now) and an extra 2 degrees of angle of attack, which would have created an interesting dynamic in dogfights where the F16C would be the better rate fighter and the MiG29S the better nose position fighter.

Instead what we got is a plane that is worse than the current MiG29 (since it’s heavier) in performance but has op missiles. It will also be extremely strong if fox-3s will come soon since it has a better radar than anything else in game (apart from the yak141 which instead has only 4 pylons and is very slow compared to the MiG29).

One reason someone might argue the SMT is a better addition than the S is the fact that the SMT is the only non very modern MiG29 that has comparable CAS capabilities to the F16C… and the fix for that would be very simple: don’t give the F16C the stuff to do CAS.

Would you have preferred the MiG29S instead of the SMT to be added now?
  • Yes
  • Yes but the F16C should have come without CAS capabilities
  • No

0 voters

If we take a simple look at the history of the MiG29, we see that with the SMT it’s the usual problem of “older airframe that has much more modern avionics and missiles”, except that in this case the older airframe is not a boat like an Ej Kai or a Tornado, but still an extremely high performance fighter. The MiG29SMT was a cheap way to upgrade older MiG29s with the avionics and other features that were designed, before the Soviet collapse, for a much more improved but more expensive version of the MiG29: the MiG29M.
The MiG29M had newer wings and fuel tank arrangement that gave it 8 missiles pylons and more fuel capacity (without the need of the ugly big spine of the SMT), fly by wire, the Zhuk radar and, unlike with the SMT, the added weight was more than compensated with the Rd33k engines and better air intakes, that led to a massive improvement in thrust.
Imho the SMT should have come at the same time of the MiG29M (aka when fox-3s are already here and after the F15C and Su27 are in the game), as a cool multirole vehicle in a folder after the MiG29S and whit a br in between of the MiG29S and the MiG29M.

Edit: for anyone interested to go deeper on why I am saying the SMT should have come with the M, this is one of the best topics of the old forum: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Fulcrum - History, Design, Performance & Dissection - Soviet Union - War Thunder - Official Forum

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#2

If the SMT were to be replaced with the S, there would be no significant difference, or reason to add it whatsoever. With the F-16C and SMT being moved to 12.3, this will hopefully give some new life to 11.0, which has been struggling massively for the past few updates. The R-73 is extremely powerful, but can still be flared quite easily. What I would suggest is maybe removing the R-27ER from the MiG-29 9.13 and 9.12A. A careful rework of the flight model of the R-27R/T giving them more range is definitely what I would prefer to adding a redundant aircraft. If I’m not mistaken, the base R-27s are lacking performance that they should have somewhat significantly. Also, adding things like Python 3s to the Barak II and other changes like that would improve the matchmaker for not just USA and USSR. Unfortunately, some nations being more powerful than others for a short time is very normal for WT and has to be dealt with.

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#3

What do you mean no reason to add it? It is different than the SMT flight model wise and the improvement in AoA and radar range can definitely be felt over the MiG29A.

All 12.0 could comfortably go to 12.3 and that would give 11.0 room to breathe (and to slaughter 10.0s without flares) without the need for an aircraft with R27ERs, R73s, and an overkill radar. The fact that it can often be flared easily does not mean that is not objectively much better than everything else we have in game. Also normal R27s got fixed (drag reduced) around February (if I remember correctly), but no one noticed it since everyone uses the ER (in fact, under 5 km the difference between the R27 and the R27ER is almost not noticeable, but the difference over 8km is still massive). If anything I would remove ERs from the SMT, not the MiG29As.

Unfortunately the power creep we are about to witness is probably to be as bad as the F-14 one from June to October of last year (or whatever was the month were his flight performance got nerfed a bit) if not worse.

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#4

The F-16C and SMT are being moved up, it is confirmed. Other aircraft are being considered for a raise but only these two are 100% confirmed. I already mentioned that the R-73 was extremely good. It’s objectively superior to all other IR dogfight missiles. Removing the ER from the SMT and not the A seems redundant. I don’t know why they would do that. Why would you use the SMT when the ER is the only reason anyone plays the MiG-29? They’re CERTAINLY not in it for the R-60Ms. Having only 2 horrible R-27s is not near reason enough to send a plane to 12.3 because it has thrust vectoring missiles. The reason the MiG-29 was given ERs in the first place was because the R-27 was arguably worse than the R-24. If they slightly nerfed the R-73s ability to ignore flares I would happily take the MiG-29SMT as is, but here we are and I have no reason to think anything is going to change. I’m trying to be realistic with my expectations, because it’s clear that Gaijin is going down the same route with aircraft that they did with tanks. Rapid and uncontrolled expansion of technology. FOX-3s are highly likely to come this year, rendering short range IR missiles nearly useless compared to a do-everything-short-long-doesn’t-matter-kill-all missile. They’ve clearly stated that these missiles will be added to EVERYONE at the same time. The meta will shift instantly and aggressively. You are absolutely 100% correct that power creep will be extreme and annoying. I agree wholeheartedly. I’m looking for ways to make it slightly less horrible without completely compromising the reason Gaijin is adding these vehicles with the weapons they are equipped with. I want the F-16C to get AIM-9Ms in order to give it better flare resistance and the Barak II to get Python 3s. I don’t just want USSR to take over top tier with overpowered jets that clearly outperform everything else. I’m sorry if I came off that way.

#5

SMT is no change in technology to what we’ve had in the game for over half a year now.
F-16A MLU is the most advanced fighter in WT currently, and F-16C is only as advanced if it is Block 50 with HMD.
R-73s are necessary for 12.3, and I’m unsure why you want to keep the BRs are 12.0.

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#6

Blockquote

What makes you say that? The only new relevant plane at top tier that is not the SMT is the F16C, and it’s not that big of an upgrade (until they add fox-3s) over the F16A. Other than that the planes on the matchmaking are the same we have now, and the MiG29 is anything but struggling right now. Never said I don’t want 12.3, if I was choosing the br of planes we would be at at least at 14.0 right now lol. We could bring all current 12.0 to 12.3 right now and no one apart from 11.0s would feel the difference.

#7

I would Say one thing start jamming that wez
(weapon employment zone) even r73 will be come usless if you stick close enough in dogfight)

#8

As long as all 11.3s are brought up to 13.0 as well, sure. Yes, I do mean all.
SMT has a worse airframe, so the missiles are carrying it.
Think of Mig-29SMT like F-14A, but with a Yak-141 radar and high-maneuvering Aim-9Ls until they’re out of fuel. Oh, and two less missiles.

#9

Blockquote

At least on my case the ER is absolutely not the reason why i am flying the MiG-29 lol. ERs were introduced before the drag on the R27 was fixed and before the MiG29 radar was modeled properly. The main reason the MiG-29 is so good is the same reason the F15 irl is better than the F16: speed and zoom climbing ability, and this can be seen by the fact that the r27er effectiveness is lower on the yak14, despite a better radar.

Thrust vectoring missiles, like it or not, means that we are going to have the best flight performance in the game (not for 1v1 dogfighting, but in terms of ability to actually do stuff in air rb), best radar in the game, best radar missile in the game and best IR missile in the game all in one plane.

BTW about what you call “horrible R27s”, those missiles, if fired at top speed in the MiG29, will reach an F16 firing aim7Ms at his top speed before the 7M reaches you under 7km.

#10

The MiG29SMT is worse and less fun in a dogfight, but while zooming around the map in air RB is basically as good as the current MiG29 and, as I already said, it has the best radar, the best ir missiles and the best radar missile in the game.

#11

The problem are not R73s in a dogfight, the problem are R73s in air RB. Good luck min ranging missiles there

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#12

Personally, I think MiG-29S (9-13S) place fill gap between MiG-29 (9-13) & MiG-29SMT (9-19) and it could be 12.3 minimum

And believe that MiG-29SMT could get new infrared homing R-73M, medium-range ARH BVRAAM R-77 replace SARH R-27ER & upgrade radar to N010M Zhuk radar in the future

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#13

They’ve already gone to the F-16 Block 50 which is basically the last Falcon before Block-52. The SMT is nice but I think it’s better we get the MiG-29M or M2 next with the SMT being the (worse performing) filler between 9.12 before it.

#14

We still have 29M and 35. Just like we have Block 50+ and Block 70

We skipped 29S and 29SMT (9.17). Just like we skipped Block 30 and 40

#15

Problem with the SMT is not the plane, it’s the missiles (or at least was, given how things are changing every second right now).

MiG-29M is way to strong for the game right now. It’s only 600kg heavier than the MiG29A but has engines capable of 9400kgf (instead of 8300kgf) of thrust and the larger intakes also mean that the installed thrust is not reduced nearly as much as the MiG29A (The 29A struggles to go over 6800kgf at low speed because engines lack air, the 29M won’t lose anywhere close to that much thrust).

Basically the MiG29M is a MiG29 with the engines nearly as powerful as an F15 lol.

#16

Should have been the MiG-29SM (9.13M)

#17

I guess we have to wait till the F-15 patch then, which I’m fine with. But I think for the time being the 9.12 and SMT are sufficient before getting the 29M. With 8 hardpoints and better thrust it’d be good progression after the SMT and sounds like it’d be a good competitor with the other opponents at that level. Given the US basically got it’s last F-16 and Israel got the Barak II, it doesn’t sound like the F-15 is that far off now.

#18

I wonder MiG-29SM (9.13M) avionics, radar, engine and short-range & medium-range Air-to-Air Missile like MiG-29S (9.13S) but with the ability to carry guided air-to-surface missiles, TV & Laser-guided bombs ?