Namer armor

[Just_Baron]

@FurinaBestArchon

If you’re not well versed, why are you making claims that you aren’t capable of backing up? You haven’t been asking questions here, you’ve been making statements that you yourself are treating more like facts.

I never made any 100 percent claims. I simply said SLERA was likely more impressive due to the way its constructed. Yes, I was in-fact misinformed about D-Tech. I had been led to believe it was the external applique armor on the 2A7 and not internal. Despite that, I still don’t see how D-Tech would be a better armor when compared to SLERA since it’s a combination of NERA and ERA. You get both the passive protection of NERA and the aggressive reaction of ERA. The Block of SLERA is also larger and heavier. The Leopard 2 weighs 65 tons roughly versus the Merkava 4M’s weight of 80 tons.

I would like to restate that I don’t believe German Armor is bad, but rather than the Leopards themselves have a hard time staying running due to maintenance issues. However, that doesn’t necessarily extend to 2024. My point previously, if you look back, is that the Bundeswehr had neglected their military for a long time, which significantly effects modernization efforts.

@FurinaBestArchon

Right, can you show me where I’ve made a statement like that?

You have been constantly saying that Germany has better Readiness rates than even the US. If that isn’t what you mean, then it certainly came off that way.

@FurinaBestArchon

I never named myself (and btw, I said insulting the intelligence!), but if you’re so interested and forgetful of your own words:

Yes, I did get slightly annoyed when I was told I was being put in my “place” when I’d done nothing to deserve such disrespect.

However, the Namer one is a given and I mean it. You cannot honestly tell me a vehicle weighing 60 tons has no armor when the vehicle was specifically designed to, at the very least, withstand hits on the side from warheads comparable to the RPG-29.

@FurinaBestArchon

None of them hold any water in the face of BMVG which I’ve called upon as a source already:

I cannot read German that well and rely on translations, which can be flawed.

Since this is getting out of hand, I would really prefer if we returned this discussion to Israeli armor.

I made a slip-up about D-Tech and will acknowledge that, however, that’s all that matters here. The rest of the discussion is pointless and does not add to the Discussion above.

[Jεcka]

@Just_Baron

I never made any 100 percent claims. I simply said SLERA was likely more impressive due to the way its constructed. Yes, I was in-fact misinformed about D-Tech. I had been led to believe it was the external applique armor on the 2A7 and not internal.

This again, sorry for saying this but, is an unsupported view. To make this easier to comprehend, SLERA during testing managed to decrease the perforation of an M322 by about ~47%, which when translated to numbers is about ~280mm, on the other than the wedges (which are a part of D-technology as a whole), had managed to increase the relative armour amount of the Leopard 2s turret by ~320mm (or ~40%). Those two armours are around 10 years apart in terms of development, yet their performance in actual numbers is quite comparable - so I personally, do not see why the former should or would be “better” as you have stated here:

Then don’t comment on a forum related the incorrect armor values for Israeli vehicles about “how I’m getting owned” when all I did was state SLERA is underperforming and should be better than the Leopard’s armor.

The Leopard 2 weighs 65 tons roughly versus the Merkava 4M’s weight of 80 tons.

This is due to armour density that anything else. Most of the Leopard 2s armour is heavily concentrated at the front, Merkava spreads its armour more evenly and armour the sides to a roughly the same level as the front. That’s not a bad thing per se, but it heavily limits how well armoured the front can be in comparison to say, the Leopard 2, whose frontal armour is much thicker & likely heavier.

However, that doesn’t necessarily extend to 2024. My point previously, if you look back, is that the Bundeswehr had neglected their military for a long time, which significantly effects modernization efforts.

Yes, and as I’ve stated before:

Bundeswehr’s own data from years 2021 & 2022, what are you using, then? Because to say that most of their tanks aren’t even combat ready would require us to go back to the period between 2013 and 2015, which checks calender was a decade ago.

Granted, 2018 was a particularly bad year for the BW.

You have been constantly saying that Germany has better Readiness rates than even the US. If that isn’t what you mean, then it certainly came off that way.

They have achieved better rates in the recent years (in fact US rates for the F-35A have fallen, per GAO 2023 they’re below 65% now), yes:

For comparison, the Luftwaffe:

EUROFIGHTER in diesem Zeitraum halbiert. Die vorgesehenen Flugstundenziele der Luftwaffe konnten daher nicht vollständig erreicht werden. Die Luftwaffe arbeitet aber mit Nachdruck daran, die ursprüngliche Solllinie wieder zu erreichen. Gute Klarstandsraten beim EUROFIGHTER von im Wochenschnitt teils über 80 Prozent tragen dazu bei.

I haven’t been able to find individual rates for the Tornado or A-400M, but due to BMVG stating that the main & secondary systems have achieved 70 - 80%+ readiness rates, we can speculate that both of them contributed to such a high number. The average for USAF on the other hand would be sub-70%. Admittadely, they have a lot more aircraft to upkeep, but for the sake of the argument we’re having this can be ignored.

Since this is getting out of hand, I would really prefer if we returned this discussion to Israeli armor.

Fair.

[Just_Baron]

@FurinaBestArchon

This again, sorry for saying this but, is an unsupported view. To make this easier to comprehend, SLERA during testing managed to decrease the perforation of an M322 by about ~47%, which when translated to numbers is about ~280mm, on the other than the wedges (which are a part of D-technology as a whole), had managed to increase the relative armour amount of the Leopard 2s turret by ~320mm (or ~40%). Those two armours are around 10 years apart in terms of development, yet their performance in actual numbers is quite comparable - so I personally, do not see why the former should or would be “better” as you have stated here:

SLERA has a chemical bias, but I’d genuinely like to see where you got this information. It’s hard to find much about anything. Despite the Chemical Bias though, it does still stop a lot of Kinetic penetration.

@FurinaBestArchon

This is due to armour density that anything else. Most of the Leopard 2s armour is heavily concentrated at the front, Merkava spreads its armour more evenly and armour the sides to a roughly the same level as the front.

That is true, yes. However, Gaijin has improperly modeled the Merkava’s weight and armor in-game. There’s a bug report that’s been acknowledged for roughly 10 months now about this.

@FurinaBestArchon

That’s not a bad thing per se, but it heavily limits how well armoured the front can be in comparison to say, the Leopard 2, whose frontal armour is much thicker & likely heavier.

I don’t doubt that the Leopard has a stronger turret face, but I still believe the Merkava should have around 700mm KE on the turret face.

That of course also means the Leopard’s turret face should be buffed as well.

If Gaijin would simply increase the max BR of Ground vehicles to a minimum of 13.0, we could fix a lot of the issues plaguing top tier.

@FurinaBestArchon

They have achieved better rates in the recent years (in fact US rates for the F-35A have fallen, per GAO 2023 they’re below 65% now), yes:

Might have something to do with the sheer numbers of US Aircraft and where they’re stationed compared to raw readiness rates. It’d be a bit short sighted to directly compare the two without acknowledging how vast the US Air Force is compared to the Luftwaffe.

TLDR: Gaijin needs to decompress top tier BADLY, properly armor modern Main Battle Tanks, fix known/ignored bugs with vehicles, and improve/enlarge maps at higher tiers.

I mean, seriously, Gaijin has known that the Merkava is 80 tons for almost 3 years (yet it remains 65 tons) and that the armor modifiers, which are worse than rubber and RHA on average, are wrong.

[Jεcka]

@Just_Baron

SLERA has a chemical bias, but I’d genuinely like to see where you got this information. It’s hard to find much about anything. Despite the Chemical Bias though, it does still stop a lot of Kinetic penetration.

Would take too long to explain this so tl;dr

Leopard 2 TVM in Sweden had been equipped with C-technology armour which resulted in a ~550mm KE turret front, when the D-technology applique had been applied the protection increased to ~865mm KE (~320mm KE)

For a more in depth explanation see this:

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/oMqKiGrKQSpU

For SLERA i’ve this:

[dotSHINI]

could u at least try to use reliable sources and not some indian nobody website, the others arent better either

[Just_Baron]

That SLERA image looks like a side plate ngl

[Just_Baron]

We’re past that.

And I was showing where I got my information from, not what’s the absolute facts. Hence why I said I was misinformed. Read for a bit.

[dotSHINI]

did you look at the wall of text you are posting

if you expect me to read trough all your paragraphs your are wholeheartly mistaken

[Just_Baron]

If you cannot read the entire threat, don’t comment.

[Just_Baron]

You’re heating a fire that has been put out. You are not needed here and are only causing drama. If you cannot read the entire thread for context, do not comment.

[Charge_Bison]

Classic gaijin

[Just_Baron]

What an outstanding individual. I’ll be waiting to see how many internet points you rack up for disrupting a genuine discussion :D

[dotSHINI]

in the first place, you are completly off topic here. You are discussing the leopard in the namer thread

[Just_Baron]

Gaijin trying to not give only 3 nations usable top tier tanks Challenge Impossible

[Just_Baron]

It’s my thread, for one. Secondly, talking about how the Leopard’s armor compares to the Merkava and Namer is completely Relevant.

[dotSHINI]

you are derailing it in the same sense how the russians try to derail eurofighter threads and try to make it about their stuff
just no clue why you do that to your own thread

[Just_Baron]

@x_Shini_

you are derailing it in the same sense how the russians try to derail eurofighter threads and try to make it about their stuff
just no clue why you do that to your own thread

Look in a mirror and politely walk out of this thread :D

[dotSHINI]

just saying how it is

[MyceliumActivist]

Everything in the Namer and Merkava mk.4 family uses self limiting explosive reactive armor (SLERA) which it lacks in game. Overall the Namer and Merkava mk.4 should be on the same level as protection as the modern Russian MBTs, but I’ll never be able to prove it in a way that’ll satisfy their arbitrary historical report procedure.

If you guys want you can at least bump this one to get the Merkava mk.4s armour renamed to SLERA on the X-ray
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/LIdizwh2nDJ6

[captainistaken]

Gaijin also has the wrong weight in the merkava 4s. the idf has a video on its YouTube channel and in the thumbnail it says that the merkava 4 is 80 tons and not the 65 which gaijin says

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L8CuRaqmXEU&pp=ygUc15jXoNenINee16jXm9eR15Qg16HXmdee158gNA%3D%3D

The thumbnail says one crew moves an eighty ton tank