Namer armor

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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Thank you for holding Baron accountable…he is well intended I am sure, but he makes many leaps and states them as facts. This gets tiresome.

As far as knowing someone in the German Army…who (what position/job) and what rank Baron? I served a full career in the US military and I am now retired. There is a significant difference from talking to a low ranking enlisted member or low ranking officer versus more senior and experienced personnel. Also, most members are not versed in procurement and some of the other issues you are discussing. An intel analyst, combat arms member, procurement officer, and technical lab nerd doing R&D would all have very different insights on the topics you discussed above with Furina, so who you are talking to matters greatly.

The soldier’s view, no matter the country in my first hand experience, is one of pessimism and griping about many things (some valid and some not). I highly doubt that the German soldier you talked to shared in-depth details of armor composites, let alone knew anything about German vs Israeli armor compositions. If he/she did, he/she is in quite a bit of trouble to be honest for discussing these with you.

Again, none of this means the Namer’s armor (and the Merkava armor) is not incorrect. It appears incorrect, but many of your statements above about Leo armor, etc are pure conjecture on your part and not presented as such until Furina called you on it.

You (Baron) are well read and are clearly a tank enthusiast, so you should be proud of that knowledge level, many people do not even have that, but the internet and even some published unclassified, open source documents are incorrect or guessing as well, so be careful.

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Constantly insulting me is not “keeping me accountable”. I’m not really sure where you guys get the Super Germany idea from.

Being in the US Military does not translate to knowing the innerworkings of the Bundeswehr. Although I mentioned knowing someone in the German Army, it isn’t relevant to this discussion. The only thing relevant is Germany’s readiness rates, which are poor and have officially been acknowledged as poor by their own Government.

Even if we assume D tech is equal in terms of tech to Israeli SLERA, it doesn’t change the fact that SLERA is 600-800mm thick compared to D-Tech. The size is vastly different and so the protection should mirror that.

Once again, Irrelevant. It isn’t the Soldier who stated they weren’t ready, it was their government. Almost every single Eurocopter is grounded. Their budget and supply lines are poor. Most of the EU has this issue.

This has nothing to do with that. It’s whether or not the Bundeswehr is as “Super” as you people seem to believe, which isn’t the case. They have many issues that make their military only capable of small Peace Keeping Operations. However, on the topic of which armor is better, I will once again rephrase, SLERA is much larger and more aggressive. It’s a mix of ERA and NERA, which is inherently going to be better than just NERA.

Tell me with a straight face that the Namer, which weighs 60 tons, cannot stop a WW2 Bazooka on the side.

You’ve done nothing to add to this conversation other than stroking the Ego of someone who has no intention to construct a positive Dialogue. I very clearly stated I was open to learning and being proven wrong, but instead of showing me how I’m wrong, I got told I’m pulling shit out of the Void.

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I haven’t insulted you even once, so I would rather that you do not make up things so you can score brownie points in the eyes of people who will/have stumble(d) upon this thread.

The only thing relevant is Germany’s readiness rates, which are poor and have officially been acknowledged as poor by their own Government.

The readiness rates as reported by their own government are currently the highest they’ve ever been in years (in 2021):

https://www.bmvg.de/de/aktuelles/einsatzbereitschaft-hauptwaffensysteme-steigt-auf-77-prozent-5325080

“The average material operational readiness of 38 main weapon systems was above the target of 70 percent, while eleven weapon systems - mostly older models - were below 50 percent. The operational readiness of combat vehicles was on average 71 percent, and of support vehicles 82 percent.”

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Again, what data do you have to show that their readiness rates are poor? Unless having some of the highest rates in the whole of NATO is “poor”?

Here’s French readiness rates for comparison:

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Here’s 2022 for the Eurofigher:

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https://ila-berlin.de/en/ila-blog/luftwaffe-and-its-industry-partners

The Federal Ministry of Defence explicitly highlighted the outstanding results of this Performance-Based Logistics (PBL) approach in its “Material Readiness Report II/2021”. The close co-operation with the industry partners significantly increased the availability of spare and replacement parts as well as the availability of weapon systems. The Eurofighter achieved exemplary “readiness rates ” of over 80 % on a weekly average, which corresponds to highest international standards.

Meanwhile US readiness rates:

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Even if we assume D tech is equal in terms of tech to Israeli SLERA, it doesn’t change the fact that SLERA is 600-800mm thick compared to D-Tech. The size is vastly different and so the protection should mirror that.

What do you even know about D-technology, because I’m having this weird sense of deja vu that i’m about to read “it’s only add-on armour!!!11”.

It’s whether or not the Bundeswehr is as “Super” as you people seem to believe, which isn’t the case.

Nobody but you have made this type of statement here. Think about it for a second.

It’s a mix of ERA and NERA, which is inherently going to be better than just NERA.

It’s also inherently thinner than most NERA armours, which by themselves are rarely just NERA, nowdays ceramics and heavy metals are favoured, and more energetic types of elastomers, fx:

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Germany has previously (in 1990s) developed a NERA sandwhich with a new type of elastic material which reduced CE performance by ~91% in a worst case scenario, and 97.7% in a best case scenario. Do you have data to show that SLERA can achieve comparable results?

You’ve done nothing to add to this conversation other than stroking the Ego of someone who has no intention to construct a positive Dialogue.

I’ve been nothing but respectful here so far, but you on the other hand have accused me of “insulting you” (which I haven’t), and of not being constructive (which I have). What have you done so far? Make baseless accusations (which are not constructive dialogue) and insult the intelligence of others. I’ve attacked the logic behind your arguments, not you. I’ve asked you where you are getting your data from, you haven’t answered me.

I’m quite comfortable with using this term now honestly: you’re a hypocrite.

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Quite agreed. Neither Furina nor I were disrespectful to you. You clearly have your opinions, to which you are entitled.

One final note, you are the one who brought up knowing a German military member when your opinion was questioned not me or Furina, so you are the one that made it relevant to the discussion. I will also argue being in any military gives one insights civilians just do not have. As I said, you are certainly entitled to your opinions though.

I personally have more important things to do than forum wars, so I hope you have a nice day and get what you want out of the not so realistic game we both play.

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baron I would recommend that if you are going to have an argument or a discussion with someone, keep your personal opinion out of the equation and try getting the sources for your information and explaining your point of view on the theme. They obviously have different points of view than you do, and that does not mean they are insulting you. They asked for you to provide a source, and I haven’t seen you put a single source in what I’ve been reading so far of the conversation, i really dont think victimizing yourself its a good way to attempt to demonstrate that they are wrong in anything of what they have said, do your research and get whatever you need from thrustworthy sources.

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uh huh.

uh huh.

Highest in years doesn’t mean it’s adequate.

Bundeswehr ‘underequipped for NATO misson’ – DW – 02/19/2018

Slight budget increases, while useful, do not fix the problem outright.

They have been doing better, but it is still not enough to fix their current situation.

These reports found that the Combat Readiness rates of Leopard tanks weren’t great. The Average estimate was around 30 percent with the highest being 44 percent even as late as 2023.

Not what the sources are showing, but feel free to share your own.

Like I said, I’m not that well versed and would love to learn more, however, you seem more interested in trying to belittle me than explain things.

You’re entire point is that Germany is a Military Superpower in Europe, but that isn’t the case.

Are you familiar with what NERA stands for? It’s any Non-Explosive

Reactive Armor. If it isn’t an active armor like ERA or SLERA, then it’s NERA.

Unfortunately, not on hand. However, you can find video evidence of Merkava tanks being unaffected by Kornet ATGM. If I find them, I will share them. I would, however, appreciate if you were less provocative.

This is untrue. You may have given some statements, but your tone has been rude overall, and you’ve made several attacks on my character.

Untrue, and I’m not sure where you’ve seen me insult you.

Untrue as seen above.

I’ve linked several sources, of which there are more.

Do explain.

Incorrect, as seen above.

The German Army being underequipped is not an opinion. They’ve been boosting their military funding for a reason.

Yes, I did do that. However, it was more intended to be involved in the Leopard discussion, not so much the German Military Funding Discussion.

I live in a military family, however, knowing how to fix an American Car doesn’t perfectly help you understand a German Car. While true that you know more, it doesn’t mean you’re an expert in the other.

Then don’t comment on a forum related the incorrect armor values for Israeli vehicles about “how I’m getting owned” when all I did was state SLERA is underperforming and should be better than the Leopard’s armor. It’s thicker and newer.

I don’t believe I’ve stated any significant opinions other than the D-Tech versus SLERA issue. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

I have listed how they’ve been rude and uncouth. If you haven’t read the replies, then that’s on you.

And you will receive sources. It takes time to gather them.

If you continue to drift this conversation into German Technical Superiority, when the Discussion is intended to provide Gaijin with information about the Israeli Merkava and Namer, then I will not be replying further. You have your forum pages for German Equipment. This is about Israeli armor underperforming and being mismodeled in-game.

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How is that an insult? Man you’re just reaching for things here xD

Highest in years doesn’t mean it’s adequate.

Bundeswehr ‘underequipped for NATO misson’ – DW – 02/19/2018

Slight budget increases, while useful, do not fix the problem outright.

How is 2018 relevant to now? My sources are dated to 2021/22 (as I’ve showed, scroll) and all of them show 70%+

As for the rest of your sources:

  • ua.defence is not reliable when BMVG’s own data contradicts it

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The rest is really more of the same to be honest and they’re just repeating what the first souce has already stated. None of them seem to account for the fact the tanks have to be pulled from active service for maintenence & upgrades either (2023 - > 2025 is when over 100+ tanks have been scheduled for upgrades to 2A6MA3 variant).

On top of that, the article they’re quoting (Spiegel or Bild) isn’t available anymore, so we can’t even verify if they translated what had been said there properly.

Like I said, I’m not that well versed and would love to learn more, however, you seem more interested in trying to belittle me than explain things.

If you’re not well versed, why are you making claims that you aren’t capable of backing up when questioned? You haven’t been asking questions here either (as far as I can see…), you’ve been making statements that you yourself are treating more like facts.

You’re entire point is that Germany is a Military Superpower in Europe, but that isn’t the case.

Right, can you show me where I’ve made a statement like that?

Reactive Armor. If it isn’t an active armor like ERA or SLERA, then it’s NERA.

No, it means that the armour itself doesn’t have a way to generate energy like armours with explosives in them, it however can absorb and use the gained energy against the incoming threat. That’s the principle behind NERA, an elastomer absorbs energy, buckles & “moves around” it put as much material in front of the CE/KE as possible, hence why “more energetic”, but a more accurate term here would be “more reactive to energy” so that’s on me.

This is untrue. You may have given some statements, but your tone has been rude overall, and you’ve made several attacks on my character.

So we’re back to making things up about me not being respectful? Alright.

Untrue, and I’m not sure where you’ve seen me insult you.

I never named myself (and btw, I said insulting the intelligence!), but if you’re so interested and forgetful of your own words:

You’ve done nothing to add to this conversation other than stroking the Ego of someone who has no intention to construct a positive Dialogue.

Tell me with a straight face that the Namer, which weighs 60 tons, cannot stop a WW2 Bazooka on the side.

This has nothing to do with that. It’s whether or not the Bundeswehr is as “Super” as you people seem to believe, which isn’t the case.

Constantly insulting me is not “keeping me accountable”.

You’re entire point is that Germany is a Military Superpower in Europe, but that isn’t the case.

I’ve linked several sources, of which there are more.

None of them hold any water in the face of BMVG which I’ve called upon as a source already:

image

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I never made any 100 percent claims. I simply said SLERA was likely more impressive due to the way its constructed. Yes, I was in-fact misinformed about D-Tech. I had been led to believe it was the external applique armor on the 2A7 and not internal. Despite that, I still don’t see how D-Tech would be a better armor when compared to SLERA since it’s a combination of NERA and ERA. You get both the passive protection of NERA and the aggressive reaction of ERA. The Block of SLERA is also larger and heavier. The Leopard 2 weighs 65 tons roughly versus the Merkava 4M’s weight of 80 tons.

SLERA
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I would like to restate that I don’t believe German Armor is bad, but rather than the Leopards themselves have a hard time staying running due to maintenance issues. However, that doesn’t necessarily extend to 2024. My point previously, if you look back, is that the Bundeswehr had neglected their military for a long time, which significantly effects modernization efforts.

You have been constantly saying that Germany has better Readiness rates than even the US. If that isn’t what you mean, then it certainly came off that way.

Yes, I did get slightly annoyed when I was told I was being put in my “place” when I’d done nothing to deserve such disrespect.

However, the Namer one is a given and I mean it. You cannot honestly tell me a vehicle weighing 60 tons has no armor when the vehicle was specifically designed to, at the very least, withstand hits on the side from warheads comparable to the RPG-29.

I cannot read German that well and rely on translations, which can be flawed.

Since this is getting out of hand, I would really prefer if we returned this discussion to Israeli armor.

I made a slip-up about D-Tech and will acknowledge that, however, that’s all that matters here. The rest of the discussion is pointless and does not add to the Discussion above.

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This again, sorry for saying this but, is an unsupported view. To make this easier to comprehend, SLERA during testing managed to decrease the perforation of an M322 by about ~47%, which when translated to numbers is about ~280mm, on the other than the wedges (which are a part of D-technology as a whole), had managed to increase the relative armour amount of the Leopard 2s turret by ~320mm (or ~40%). Those two armours are around 10 years apart in terms of development, yet their performance in actual numbers is quite comparable - so I personally, do not see why the former should or would be “better” as you have stated here:

Then don’t comment on a forum related the incorrect armor values for Israeli vehicles about “how I’m getting owned” when all I did was state SLERA is underperforming and should be better than the Leopard’s armor.

The Leopard 2 weighs 65 tons roughly versus the Merkava 4M’s weight of 80 tons.

This is due to armour density that anything else. Most of the Leopard 2s armour is heavily concentrated at the front, Merkava spreads its armour more evenly and armour the sides to a roughly the same level as the front. That’s not a bad thing per se, but it heavily limits how well armoured the front can be in comparison to say, the Leopard 2, whose frontal armour is much thicker & likely heavier.

However, that doesn’t necessarily extend to 2024. My point previously, if you look back, is that the Bundeswehr had neglected their military for a long time, which significantly effects modernization efforts.

Yes, and as I’ve stated before:

Bundeswehr’s own data from years 2021 & 2022, what are you using, then? Because to say that most of their tanks aren’t even combat ready would require us to go back to the period between 2013 and 2015, which checks calender was a decade ago.

Granted, 2018 was a particularly bad year for the BW.

You have been constantly saying that Germany has better Readiness rates than even the US. If that isn’t what you mean, then it certainly came off that way.

They have achieved better rates in the recent years (in fact US rates for the F-35A have fallen, per GAO 2023 they’re below 65% now), yes:

image

For comparison, the Luftwaffe:

EUROFIGHTER in diesem Zeitraum halbiert. Die vorgesehenen Flugstundenziele der Luftwaffe konnten daher nicht vollständig erreicht werden. Die Luftwaffe arbeitet aber mit Nachdruck daran, die ursprüngliche Solllinie wieder zu erreichen. Gute Klarstandsraten beim EUROFIGHTER von im Wochenschnitt teils über 80 Prozent tragen dazu bei.

I haven’t been able to find individual rates for the Tornado or A-400M, but due to BMVG stating that the main & secondary systems have achieved 70 - 80%+ readiness rates, we can speculate that both of them contributed to such a high number. The average for USAF on the other hand would be sub-70%. Admittadely, they have a lot more aircraft to upkeep, but for the sake of the argument we’re having this can be ignored.

Since this is getting out of hand, I would really prefer if we returned this discussion to Israeli armor.

Fair.

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SLERA has a chemical bias, but I’d genuinely like to see where you got this information. It’s hard to find much about anything. Despite the Chemical Bias though, it does still stop a lot of Kinetic penetration.

That is true, yes. However, Gaijin has improperly modeled the Merkava’s weight and armor in-game. There’s a bug report that’s been acknowledged for roughly 10 months now about this.

I don’t doubt that the Leopard has a stronger turret face, but I still believe the Merkava should have around 700mm KE on the turret face.

That of course also means the Leopard’s turret face should be buffed as well.

If Gaijin would simply increase the max BR of Ground vehicles to a minimum of 13.0, we could fix a lot of the issues plaguing top tier.

Might have something to do with the sheer numbers of US Aircraft and where they’re stationed compared to raw readiness rates. It’d be a bit short sighted to directly compare the two without acknowledging how vast the US Air Force is compared to the Luftwaffe.

TLDR: Gaijin needs to decompress top tier BADLY, properly armor modern Main Battle Tanks, fix known/ignored bugs with vehicles, and improve/enlarge maps at higher tiers.

I mean, seriously, Gaijin has known that the Merkava is 80 tons for almost 3 years (yet it remains 65 tons) and that the armor modifiers, which are worse than rubber and RHA on average, are wrong.

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Would take too long to explain this so tl;dr

Leopard 2 TVM in Sweden had been equipped with C-technology armour which resulted in a ~550mm KE turret front, when the D-technology applique had been applied the protection increased to ~865mm KE (~320mm KE)

For a more in depth explanation see this:

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/oMqKiGrKQSpU

For SLERA i’ve this:

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could u at least try to use reliable sources and not some indian nobody website, the others arent better either

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That SLERA image looks like a side plate ngl

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We’re past that.

And I was showing where I got my information from, not what’s the absolute facts. Hence why I said I was misinformed. Read for a bit.

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did you look at the wall of text you are posting

if you expect me to read trough all your paragraphs your are wholeheartly mistaken

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If you cannot read the entire threat, don’t comment.

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You’re heating a fire that has been put out. You are not needed here and are only causing drama. If you cannot read the entire thread for context, do not comment.

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Classic gaijin
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What an outstanding individual. I’ll be waiting to see how many internet points you rack up for disrupting a genuine discussion :D

plan gif marketing strategy

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in the first place, you are completly off topic here. You are discussing the leopard in the namer thread