Bruh we are left at this point of the conversation still believing that the R-27ER not only had high off boresight capability beyond the limits of what both the radar & IRST can see (even in game), but now they also lock on after launch for that extra spicy high off-bore sight capability???
High off boresight 350kg (771lb) SARHs that lock on after launch? That also go Hypersonic?
Hypersonic medium ranged SARHs with high off boresight capability? That lock on after launch?
@Flame2512@Gunjob is this the level of realism in the game we are at? This is not realism, this is delusion.
So lads.
We came from Mig-29 flight model suck to Mig-29 can’t use R-27ER to Mig-29’s radar can’t use HMD and now we slowly approaching Mig-29’s can’t use any radar’s slaving weapons ?.
The Mig-29 FM does not suck per se. But is definitely lacking. Have you noticed the roll rate of the Mig29 SMT? What about its poor angle of attack? The IRCCM of all IR missiles is lacking, the IRST detection & tracking & search of the OEPS-29/27. IRST search mode is completely useless. No one uses it in-game only HMC.
There was no such thing as “PD HMD” mode. The OEPS-29 works exclusively with IR missiles.
Just like the Soviet Union did not chose to mount rails on the exhaust intakes simply because of catapult launchers. They are less than optimal place to work efficiently with the HMS.
There is not ability for the Seeker to see in close quarters with targets at your 12 o’clock high. Ideally, this is the position you want the enemy to be in a dogfight.
It makes zero sense that IR missiles would be placed on the fuselage because of an inability for the seekers to see when they are most needed. In close quarters.
That is why no rail was placed on the exhaust for IR missiles. Not because Sukhoi could not somehow figure out how to launch IR missiles from the fuselage that day.
Well it would be no different then other fox1 missiles that are mounted on the rearward section of the fuselage in other aircraft such as phantoms and tornado’s. If the sparrows and skyflashes are perfectly capable of engaging targets above the nose where they lack direct los on launch, then there is absolutely no reason why a missile with a datalink system such as on r27’s cannot also. As not only will it be able to home in on the radar beam emitted once it is ejected from the rear station, same as the aforementioned missiles, but also will be receiving active telemetry on where it needs to fly towards even when the missile seeker cannot see the target;
(4+ Mig29 all variants)
Though naturally, the IR missiles do need to be mounted in an area where they have a good forward field of view, as they do not have the capability to ‘loal’ and need to first acquire a direct lock before launch. However, if they also were to receive sufficient upgrades with intergrated datalink systems along with more accurate INS, then i would imagine they too would also be capable of being mounted in the rearward stations. No different then how some modern aircraft are capable of firing IR missiles from their internal weapons bay, or indeed how the modern variants of archers are claimed to be capable of firing at targets behind the aircraft if designated by the rear facing radar.
In terms of the question of older radars being able to see & lock targets above it or as designated by HMS there are a few things which make me think that it should be perfectly doable. Firstly, if it could not slew upwards to follow a hms, how then does it achieve accurate tracking on targets within the angles above the horizon in normal operation? Or especially while already tracking a closing target which would present fast aspect changes relative to the radar. It seems they had some method for achieving this even with such an old radar design. And I haven’t read or heard of any pilots or authors noting any particular inability of the radar to maintain a lock in such situations. Additionally, the mig29G manual itself outright states the HMS can be used to designate targets directly to OESP, Radar and IR seekers of missiles;
Furthermore, the radar is designed to work directly in tandem with the Electro-optical system - with the radar constantly staying aligned to where the OEPS is locking something, so that an instant switch from OESP to radar lock is possible whenever needed - either for weapons delivery or for the proper maintenance of target tracking. If indeed there was no way for the radar to achieve sufficient lock and tracking of targets above the nose - which is the primary area serviced by the electro-optical system - then such a capability would not be possible;
You are correct, that’s why the PD HMD Mode is made up.
Are they? Can you source this?
This is not how the Data Link in the R-27 works.
The RF receiver is not sensitive enough to pick up illumination at longer ranges that the R/ER can kinematically engage at (another limitation in Soviet production of digital electronics 1980s).
The Soviets bypassed this limitation by equipping the R-27 with data link antenna for command guidance to cover the trip until the missiles gets into range where it can pick up illumination with its own receiver in the nose.
This ability, what people think is “lock on after launch” happens for targets the radar determines are at too far a range for the receiver of the missile to pick up.
It is incapable of launching at targets at close range with the missile’s receiver “turned off”.
This is not a theory lol. The games mechanic is theory.
Even OEPS-29 user manuals that others have shared states the exact same thing. They are used for R60M, R-73, R-27T & R-27ET.
The Su-27SK flight manual both Russian & English versions state that the sight rings are for IR missiles. A flashing light & audible tone will tell you have lock.
If radar weapons are selected, the radar is turned on and is in stand-by updated with the targets angular position so when it does cross its FoV it is captured immediately and locked.
You must point the nose at the target. There is no such thing as PD HMD mode & high-off bore sight R-27ERs. That is not what they were even designed for.
Additionally, you cannot fire the R-27R or ER in a dogfight pulling 5gs anyway. Here is documentation for you profession English translation Su-27SK manual.
The R-27E (Extended range series) introduced in service 1990 came in two variants the R-27RE (Alamo-C) Semi-Active Radar & R-27TE (Alamo-D) "with a more advanced version of the infrared finder, capable with helmet sight of pilot. "
The R-27ET is distinguished of the two as the only one capable of interacting with the helmet sight. The R-27ER is not.
I am not sure, yet. I have the English professional translated version of the Su-27 manual as well that says some very unflattering things… They would need to fix some major issues of the Mig-29 first beforehand. Because my goal is not to unjustifiably nerf these aircraft even though they are grossly overperforming in radar capability.
The reason is because they are suffering in-game historically too. They are my favorite & there is no guarantee they will ever get resolved if they had realistic radars modelled. However, my position is they will never get resolved ever if they are left overperforming in these subjects.
I think GJ put themselves in a dilemma & why we have not received the Soviet 9-12
GJ thinks the Mig-29 is doing well, so well in fact they believe they do not even need their historical missiles, the R-73. That is an issue don’t you think?
How is it that a Soviet aircraft is doing so well it does not need its historical Soviet missiles? But is ok with one missile it never carried or used ever under the Soviet Flag?
Because the R-27ER, a missile it never carried defines the Soviet Mig-29’s entire identity & existence in WT.There is no room for improvement in the Fulcrum with such a missile in its loadout.
Yes i know very well. The point is to illustrate though that the missile does not need to actually initially have an adequate lock on target at the moment of launch. Specifically, as it relates to closer range shots, once ejected off the rail the missiles as they clear the fuselage would have a much clearer view of the radar emissions to then track towards the target - no different than at longer ranges. If they were limited by the need to actually attain a direct track of the target before launch, then the rearward or undercarriage stations on many aircraft would not be useable in the first place as some even have the missiles recessed into the fuselage which directly obscures the seekers’ view.
In so far as the HMD is concerned, the main question needs to be on the ability of the radar to acquire targets above the nose. Which as indicated by the standard radar search angles would allow it to do so. As for whether or not it’s the EO system or the radar doing the initial lock of the target as directed by the HMS is a question i have also wondered. Though it is partially irrelevant since the radar will align itself in real time to any target captured by the IRST, and as such can activate for a lock immediately when a radar missile is selected for launch (creating a report for that functionality is next on my to do list after i finish my mig29 FM stuff). So even if the radar itself was not directly locking targets with HMS, at most its capability to instantly acquire radar locks while using HMD feature in game would be limited to the gimbal limits of the OEPS.
However, previously i had searched around the HMS functionality and haven’t come across any documents or information which actually outright disproved the radar is capable of being slewed to capture targets itself without interaction with the OE system. So its really just an interesting talking point but not much more at this stage. But obviously the HMS cannot be used to sling radar missiles around the same way as one could with IR missiles - especially since the IR missile seekers directly interface with HMS itself, whereas radar missiles are subject to the abilities of the onboard targeting systems.
