KFIR C10 Block 60 The Colombian Sky Lion, Analysis and Discussion

[Mr_Kiryu]

Thank you very much, I do have plans on making a bug report regarding these extra modes for our dear Kfir C.10 Block 60, however I think we should amass more screenshots and evidence so that our report can be as solid as it can possibly be.

Another factor behind this decision by my part is because I wish to gather at least a minimum of 3 different screenshots for every MFD mode, and I believe this CAN in fact be achieved, after all, the official channel of the Colombian Air Force has around 1,2k videos in total.

Out of which, if we consider the fact that most videos with cockpit footage are usually in the range of 15 - 22 minutes, then we have even higher chances to present more formal evidence.

The Colombian Air Force’s Official YouTube channel, the total amount of videos displayed are roughly 1200 according to YouTube’s estimates.

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Another reason I wish to delay the report per se, is that I also wish to integrate sources such as the ELTA EL/M-2052 radar brochure, IAI Lahav Division Brochure for the Kfir C.10, and other sources regarding this.

Why you may ask?

Well, I am pretty sure the Kfir C.10 with its MFD’s can properly handle NCTR capabilities due to the integrated ELTA EL/M-2052 radar, said capabilities could be reported and added thanks to the sources mentioned before.

• A few screenshots from the Lahav Division Kfir C.10 Brochure:

Kfir avionics showcase by the Lahav Division Brochure, most components can be see in their bare state.

MFD modes capabilities portrayed by the Lahav Division Brochure in great detail.

Detailed view of the air radar modes by the Lahav Division Brochure.

Detailed view of the air-to-ground radar modes by the Lahav Division Brochure.

DataLink capabilities shown by the Lahav Division Brochure.

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• Screenshot from the official ELTA EL/M-2052 AESA Radar Brochure:

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• And lastly a screenshot from the official IAI Kfir C.10 Brochure:

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I believe there is a lot of material to be found regarding the Kfir C.10 Block 60, and I will require EVERY SINGLE OUNCE OF HELP AND DEDICATION FROM EVERY KFIR ENJOYER, we have a valley of information to discover, and I believe it is our duty to supply the Kfir C.10’s correct capabilities as owners of this amazing aircraft.

Lastly, for those willing to venture out, check the Colombian Air Force’s channel, it seems to be our biggest mine of information.

I will remain here on standby awaiting any further developments from other community members, and of course, I will continue to provide updates.

Cheers.

[GranColombia]

I’m sure my friend, in fact, related to NTCR in the radar MFD (in the cockpit), has already accepted the report a few months ago, but they still haven’t fixed it, I ask you please to support him in remembering it.
MFD Kfir C.10 wrong: NCTR // Gaijin.net // Issues

[Mr_Kiryu]

Sweet, I think that with the sources brought forward by myself and this report you’ve mentioned we can do an extra report perhaps?

After all, it seems the best way to see a change implemented is to beg and nag constantly.

+1 for the extra info, will definitely look into the source provided by the report.

Also, let me know if you’ve got any means of contacting, so we can put all of our sources together.

Lastly, we use the same pfp haha, that’s pretty neat.

[GranColombia]

Of course, since now that this report is accepted, I like your idea of ​​a complete report on all the functions of the Kfir C.10 Blk 60 MFDs (by the way, they are ASTRONAUTICS MFDs), but I am not sure about this.

[Mr_Kiryu]

They look pretty similar to them, although we’d have to look up the specific model to be sure.

Best case scenario, we figure out the manufacturer and model, and we can then branch out from that even more.

We’re practically building an information network at this point.

[Mr_Kiryu]

I went browsing for a bit in the ASTRONAUTICS website, the MFD’s seem to be somewhat (but not quite) similar to the AFD 6800 display, although the website seems to redirect to an error 404

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AFD 6800 Displays by ASTRONAUTICS. They are clearly not a 1:1 product when compared to the Kfir C.10 Block 60 pictures provided before, but close enough I guess…?

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I think we’ll have to discard this bit for now, as it seems like a dead end, unless we do get a specific MFD model to work with.

[Mr_Kiryu]

Before I head to bed (just like last time haha), I will send all of the video sources I’ve used so far, some of them come from different or the same video in different timestamps, therefore the same video might be listed more than once, for that reason, I will add number markers to distinguish them from each other in the video timeline.

Format followed: {Channel Name} + [video name] + (instance number)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Sube a bordo de un Kfir

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — 90 años en servicio de la nación (1)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — 90 años en servicio de la nación (2)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — 90 años en servicio de la nación (3)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Fuerza Aérea Colombiana rumbo a Red Flag Rescue 2021| A Volar

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IAI — Kfir Aircraft - Master the Skies with this Advanced Fighter Aircraft | IAI (1)

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IAI — Kfir Aircraft - Master the Skies with this Advanced Fighter Aircraft | IAI (2)

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IAI — Kfir Aircraft - Master the Skies with this Advanced Fighter Aircraft | IAI (3)

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IAI — Kfir Aircraft - Master the Skies with this Advanced Fighter Aircraft | IAI (4)

IAI — Kfir Aircraft - Master the Skies with this Advanced Fighter Aircraft | IAI (5)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Autoridad Aeronáutica de Aviación de Estado, un pilar para la aviación de la Fuerza Pública (1)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Autoridad Aeronáutica de Aviación de Estado, un pilar para la aviación de la Fuerza Pública (2)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Relámpago IX-24, un entrenamiento de élite entre Colombia y EE.UU. (1)

Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Relámpago IX-24, un entrenamiento de élite entre Colombia y EE.UU. (2)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — 50 años de la Aviación Supersónica (1)

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Fuerza eroespacial Colombiana — 50 años de la Aviación Supersónica (2)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — 50 años de la Aviación Supersónica (3)

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — MI CORAZÓN LATE POR TI

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Fuerza Aeroespacial Colombiana — Fuerza Aérea realiza su primera misión Package Comander

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Once again, I highly encourage the rest to continue the search for more material to the upcoming bug-report, I am thinking to have it be done this weekend.

By tomorrow I hope to send the brochures I’ve partially shared before.

[Tim154g]

Thanks vor your Help Bro

[GranColombia]

Wow, lots of images that DO show many functions in the cockpit of the IAI Kfir C.10 Blk 60, this would be very useful for simulator battles.
Getting back to the MFDs, since I hadn’t looked closely at the ASTRONAUTCS products (that’s why I said I wasn’t sure), then they must be the same ones used by the Army’s “Arpía IV” helicopters. These were also developed with Israeli avionics technology. I’m talking about the ARNIC MFDs.

[GranColombia]

Colombian IAI Kfir C.10 Block 60 Air-to-Air Missiles

I’d like to start this thread regarding the addition of controversial weaponry (both for the F-16I Sufa and for Israel’s military industry in general), and even more so: the poor, isolated Kfir C.10 caught in the middle of this debate between Gaijin and the community. That’s right, I’m referring to the Python 4.
The specific case of the Kfir C.10 was very curious and unfair, since it has been added in a very incomplete way unlike other aircraft (at least I know that there are many similar cases) but it is very difficult to make visible.

• 3rd Gen cell
• Modern Avionics
• 5th Generation Weaponry
• Modernization/Maintenance

This combination of factors is very interesting, making the Kfir C.10 a unique aircraft in the world, with a lot of potential in the game. Great power, with an equal limitation that can be summarized (taking into account its role in the game) as follows:

Advantages:
Modern sensors (RWR, AESA radar, HMD, datalink)
Electronic countermeasures (ECM) capabilities
Electronic warfare (EW) capabilities
5th generation weaponry (Python 5)
BVR long-range weaponry (I-Derby-ER missiles)

Disadvantages:
Engine power
Weapon capacity (4 missiles)
Limited ground-guided weaponry
Limited active countermeasures (Chaff-flares)

Python 4/5 missiles

The problem with the Kfir C.10 in the game is that the specific variant (Block 60) never used the Python 3 IR missiles it has in the game (which aren’t bad, but it’s historically inaccurate), and the missiles currently used by the Colombian Kfir may be the Python 4 and its latest generation version, the Python 5 (the most iconic missile of the Colombian Air Force, along with the I-Derby-ER).
From what I understand, the Python 4 in the game might be more advanced than the existing missiles. Furthermore, there’s only one missile with similar capabilities (the Russian RVV-MD), and this would affect the balance. Therefore, it’s most likely that they won’t be added until after the 5th generation missiles (this is an objective assumption that has already been discussed).

Conclusion

Besides the fact that the Python 4 itself is controversial to add to the game (on platforms like the Sufa, F-15, and other future aircraft), what hope will one of the major operators of this missile in the real world (Kfir C.10 Blk 60) have? Furthermore, although very difficult, the Kfir C.10’s Battle Rating should increase.

And if this is the case with the Python 4, what will the problem be if the Python 5 is actually added in the future? Colombia, along with India, may be one of the major operators of this advanced missile. Should doubtful game balance prevail? Or perhaps, with the discipline and courage of our community, will historical accuracy prevail in this game that claims to maintain historical realism? On behalf of the small but worthy Colombian, Latin American and Kfir lovers community, we say:

OF COURSE THERE SHOULD BE A COLOMBIAN IAI KFIR C.10 BLK 60 WITH PYTHON 5 AND I-DERBY-ER!!!

- YouTube

I will try to defend this statement with the ideas I have so that this does not affect the Kfir in the game or the balance, but I believe that if this is possible, the Kfir C.10 should be in BR 13.7 or 14 if you want comment.
Thanks for your attention.

Sources

Spoiler

https://www.fac.mil.co/
https://www.webinfomil.com/
https://www.rafael.co.il/

[Mr_Kiryu]

The curious thing to be considered is that the Kfir C.10 is likely modeled after the Kfir 2000 / C.10 / CE, which operated with base Python 3, a historical inaccuracy when it comes with the actual Kfir C.10 Block 60.

I’ve had my suspicions of it ever since the Kfir C.10 Block 60 was put in the game, as if you check the stats such as engine thrust, engine name, sensor-suite, etc.

The most notable piece of evidence for this case was the fact that for a good while the Kfir C.10 Block 60 still had the two bars on the cockpit, when it really didn’t, later on it got updated, but the external visual model still had it. And if you wanna get REALLY SPECIFIC, as during sometimes where the textures bugged, you could see the cockpit bars faintly appear.

Now of course, these accusations are merely speculative, but I think these statements do show a nugget of truth, aircraft are being pushed in a rushed state more than ever, this specifically holds true in Israel regarding the F-16I Sufa since it took SEVERAL reports to get a full coverage of its true capabilities.

Ecuadorian Kfir C.10, directly based on the Kfir 2000 prototype for export. Ecuador being second most notable Kfir operator apart from Colombia and Israel

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Regarding the Python 4, which is the main topic of this post, I doubt we’ll get the following in the Python series due to “not being considered yet at the time” and any other variants of said response, which surprises me, mostly the benefits of the Python 4 like the 360° launch parameters of it seem only to be locked behind platforms with stronger electronics, like the F-35I Adir or the F-16I Sufa (which I doubt this can be reached with the JHMCS).

Lastly, I think the community is likely over-estimating the Python 4 performance, it is a great missile, but I feel it is often talked as German mains describe the Tiger or the Maus: Wunderwaffen / Wonder weapons.

The Python 4 is an exceptional missile with great service capabilities, however I disagree with this treatment of it as something completely mind-bending, as if it were something out of the generation, when we have dual band missiles such as the P-5EII already in the game, or excellent missiles such as the R-73.

Knights of the North Squadron F-16C Barak II carrying two Python 4 missiles on its pylons.

Which also opens the argument, if the Python 4 is added, which missiles should come next?

I’ll likely vouch for the AIM-9X Block II and the IRIS-T.

Why, well, knowing how Gaijin prioritizes efficiency (and by efficiency I mean the path of least resistance) they’ll likely just copy and paste the missiles we have for our modern SPAA’s, I find it TOO CONVENIENT that we’re getting modern missiles for ground which ALSO happen to be in aircraft platforms.

Flight Test Center “Manat” Squadron F-35I taking off a runway

The One Squadron F-16I Sufa loaded with SPICE-2000, Python 5, and AIM-120B’s.

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Lastly, just to finish off my thoughts regarding the Python 4, I highly doubt platforms such as the Kfir C.10 Block 60, F-16C/D Barak II, F-16I Sufa, and F-15I Ra’am will receive them anytime soon or will drastically change the way these are played, of course, I am basing this on assumptions from my part. However I think we SHOULD strive towards their implementation as this means a more varied arsenal for every nation in-game.

[GranColombia]

Of course, the Python 4 has great capabilities, but relating it to the Kfir C.10, I’d like to clarify: the Br in which it operates already has missiles with IRCCM, and in the case of the other aircraft in the Israeli Air Force, they at least have good IR missiles (superior to the P3) like the AIM-9 M/L. The Colombian Kfir C.10 Block 60 doesn’t have this (specifically the Colombian Air Force Kfir C.10, since if it were the general version it would have the capacity to carry the Sidewinders). So the case of the Sufa in the game is the debate about its Br 14 and the obvious need for the Python 4 to justify it. For the Kfir C.10 Blk 60, the Python 4 would also be sufficient to slightly increase its Br due to the limited capacity it could carry (4 max). Furthermore, I propose that the Improved version of the Derby (I-Derby) also be added to the game, along with its extended-range version (which would be the counterpart to long-range BVR missiles like the AIM-120 C and R-77-1 already in the game). Even so, there is much more to discuss.

[BasherBenDawg8]

@GranColombia

Disadvantages:
Engine power

Uhhhhh nah it’s still pretty bonkers even if it’s still form the C.7

[GranColombia]

Um, okay, maybe it’s not bad, but I assure you it’s far inferior to the aircraft it faces in top-level combat. That’s why I listed it as a disadvantage. I’ve also researched that the Colombian Kfir C.10 might be the GE J79-J1E/QD (an improved version). This is because there was a time when some aircraft crashed, and the Colombian Air Force (FAC) sent the J79 engines to Israel for repowering and maintenance. Hence, the source claims these engines should perform somewhat better.

[GranColombia]

As part of the new update, the Kfir C.10 will receive an HMD update, which is welcome because this was precisely what was missing. The problem is that, although the new Targo2 HMD system has Datalink capability, it seems to have been omitted from the Dev. Here is the report; if you can support us would be great. Community Bug Reporting System

[HuckebeinDerRabe-psn]

Even better? The issue with the Kfir is the low VnE, not engine power. It’s like putting a V10 into a Golf II

[GranColombia]

That’s true, we must always be careful that the aircraft doesn’t exceed the speed limit, but being a delta wing, it sheds a lot of energy in dogfights, and its recovery is very slow. Furthermore, at high altitudes it loses maneuverability precisely because the J-79 lacks power. That’s what I mean.

[Mr_Kiryu]

Good evening Kfir enjoyers and War Thunder community, I’m glad to announce that TWO Kfir C.10 bug-reports have been made, and it’s up to YOU, the player, to drive them forwards to being accepted.

Here are the following reports:

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• Kfir C.10 Block 60 — Missing MFD Modes:

As mentioned before in my posts, several images and sources have been attached to drive forward the implementation of new MFD modes, NCTR, and other related functions shown within the sources.

Armament view and Data Link shown in the main MFD’s of the Kfir C.10 Block 60.

HUD view and Data Link shown in the main MFD’s of the Kfir C.10 Block 60.

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• Targo II / JHMCS II Missing Blue Forces Tracking and Data Link:

Elbit Systems Expo showcasing the JHMCS / TARGO family of Helmet Mounted Systems.

Following that the JHMCS is in fact TARGO, the official JHMCS II specifications provided by Elbit Systems can be applied to the Kfir C.10 Block 60’s TARGO-II HMD, therefore, Data Link is a confirmed capability.

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Please share these reports so that we can better accurately model this aircraft, these are (for what we’ve found) valid sources for bug-reporting, therefore, we are currently relying on the community’s support for pushing these changes.

Thank you.

[Mr_Kiryu]

Gentlemen, in light of new evidence I’ve decided to make my own forum thread, this time compiling all the material and findings possible in regards to the Kfir series of aircraft

Topics so far covered:

• Kfir C.2 / C.7 RWR Screen
• Kfir C.2 / C.7 HUD
• Kfir C.7 Weapon Delivery and Navigation System (MFD Function)
• Kfir 2000 / CE / C.10 Cockpit images

[Mr_Kiryu]

Good evening Kfir enjoyers, I’ve recently published my best written report so far in regards to the missing Data Link capabilities on the Kfir C.10, for those interested, here is the report:

• [DEV] Kfir C.10 Block 60 Missing Data Link Capabilities

Please go show it some love, as it would make a great addition to such an amazing aircraft that is the Kfir C.10 Block 60, thank you.