Targetting pods and GMR are definetly still works-in-progress. Looking forward to GMR on the Tornados hopefully at somepoint. Trying to use PGMs on a slightly cloudly map is a nightmare, so I can imagine.
I agree, and am now leaning towards not needing them exactly until other aircraft have p-73s and other missiles at that level
And it’s a terrible airplane. It’s unpopular, it’s weak. Why have it at 11.7 when there’s the F-14B?
Yet the harrier has better flight performance than the su-25t, more ltz and a much better targeting system.
The huge disadvantage of the su-39 is the fact that you can only aim the Kh-25ML by literally flying at the target. Because of this, you can’t dodge SAMs
I have problems with English terminology, explain what it is
Ground mapping radar, basically the radar that the Su-39 has (but the Tornado Gr1 (IDS) had quite an advanced version for its era and was its main party trick)
GMR in the Tornado Allowed it see in a fair amount of detail what was in front of it when it flew at low alt. Allowing for true all weather capability. It could be integrated into TFR (terrain following radar) that allowed the plane to fly on auto-pilot at 300ft whilst avoiding hazards. The radar could lock onto tanks and ships but was most often used for its targetting computer which could be used to throw or “loft” bombs with incredible accuracy (within a few metres of the desired target)
(massively simplified I know)
yeah that has always been my objection to the R-73s. Need more jets with R-73s/9Ms first and we need some CM overhauls first
Its AGMs and other ground attack weapons. Its closest match is the Sea Harrier FRS1 at 10.7. So thats a full BR almost solely because of its A2G weapons.
For the record, it actually has the wrong targetting pod and the wrong AGMs, it was given much earlier/older versions for balancing reasons because what it should have was considered too strong when it was added. Still no word on if/when we’ll actually get any upgrades. Though it might actually be getting MAWS soon though
Okay, I get it. In Russian these abbreviations sound quite different and I sometimes get confused.
In general, yes, I don’t mind aircraft with specialized radar systems getting them. Including the Su-39
Yes, but attack planes need missiles to resist multi-purpose planes. How is a su-39 or harrier supposed to escape a f-16 or f-14?
Although the f-14 can carry a large set of bombs + medium range missiles
Another unhinged thread about buffing the Su-39 ffs
Like the first thread wasnt big enough
Yeah, pre-Su-39 I assumed that they may simple not think that GMR was a worthwhile addition, but now we’ve got it on the Su-39, should be added to Tornado and other jets, I think the A6 is another aircraft with something similar
This is a 2 fold problem. The first BR compression. There are many jets that should never meet but do due to a huge number of aircraft being spread accross only a few BRs.
The second is ground attack jets like the Su-39, Torando Gr1 or Harrier Gr7 being pitted against air superiority aircraft like the F-14 or F-16. Whether or not those jets can carry A2G weapons, I think is irrelevant.
I’d never expect a Harrier, or Su-39 to ever be able to truly fight any fighter like the F-14, and I dont think big AAM upgrades would change that fact, but it would punish those others in non-fighters.
The solution is a gamemode for CAS, that is not GRB or detached ARB/GRB BRs, so that aircraft like the Su-39 and Harrier Gr7 could sit lower 10.7 ish? in ARB but 11.3-11.7 in GRB.
Unfortunately though, I feel Gaijin prioritises GRB over ARB these days
I am the only one who has found information about Kinzhal radar and have read a lot about Khod container. I think in the English-speaking thread now I have the best knowledge about it
Whilst I somewhat agree, the other was
“Give the Su-39 R-73s and R-77s because it had them IRL and I just spent $70 on this jet and I want it OP as hell”
This one is more of a general discussion of the aircraft, like the Tornado or harrier ones over in the british section.
Yes, attack aircraft that in reality have to fly a mission into already busy skies why fight fighters.
Even in doubtful battles subsonic attack planes of top levels are bad.
Literally any airplane destroys them without a chance, nothing depends on the skill of pilots. I see the solution in giving a limited number of extra A2A missiles that could give a chance to su-39 or harrier.
The R-27R and the analog in the Brit.
You sacrifice A2G armament for A2A is fair. Plus in maneuver you don’t stand a chance all the same.
Yeah, Gr7 could get Aim-9M (R-73 equivalent) or even ASRAAM in the future. But nothing akin to R-27R
Moderation and incremental changes is what the Su-39 needs short term. Big jumps could be an issue. With no targetting pod, everyone would take Radar and R-27R. But in the future, that forced choice targetting pod vs radar pod, especially if a few of the better (maybe even adding fire and forget AGMs) required the targetting pod, then BVRs would not be quite as scary of an addition. My biggest fear is the idea that the su-39 would have a A2A loadout that rivaled most nations at the same time it having A2G loadout that also rivaled most nations.
That way the Su-39 could spealise without being totally overbearing. Some weapon systems though like R-27ER I dont think should ever be considered, that missile is completely broken at the moment
On the flip side, and this is a little selfish I know, but many jets are lacking in defence. Tornado Gr1 should have ECM (Sky Shadow pods) and 1200 chaff packets not the 28 it has currently. I’d be a lot less scared of something like the Su-39 getting one of the better BVRs in the game, if my usual go to jet, wasnt so vulnerable, and the same can be said for a number of aircraft.
Without a doubt though, the Su-39 should get 4x R-60Ms and maybe an option for something like R-27Ts, just to extends it IR power.
They have already confirmed that they’d never expect an “attacker” to be on par with a “fighter” and thus would not perform as well in ARB. but the question is, to what degree
In that case, the fighters should give up the bombs.
The F-14B is completely versatile and better than any other aircraft in the game for cooperative combat.
On 11.0 we have the Phantom 2 with 4 TV bombs and medium range missiles. Excuse me? Is that legal?
Su-39 should get thermal imager+MMW radar and R-27R. Then that would be two airplane builds that you can’t get at the same time.
Either you are air resisted (but again you can’t compete with the f-14 and f-16), or you have thermal imaging and radar that sees ground targets, but you are defenseless against the sky.
Now the Su-39 is not all-weather, and the Kopye-25 is just a toy that does nothing inherently wrong
The Su-39 is not an attack aircraft, it was designed as an all-purpose aircraft. i can send the project requirements here.
They included the ability to defend itself against enemy aircraft. So it has to have R-27R, but not at the same time as a thermal imager.
You have to choose one
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The only “but” i have there though, is that and correct me if Im wrong, its an early 2000s era jet?
Many jets of that era were starting to become multi-role, Britain for example moved away from Tornado Gr1 / Torando F3 and onto the EF Typhoon in 2003. One of the first “true” mutli-role jets in the world. So we need to be careful how strong you make the Su-39, when it should in theory be going up against not F4s and Tornados, but EF Typhoons and F-15s
I think we do need to be careful when considering the Su-39 a multi-role jet. I have no doubt it could carry an impressive range of AAMs that allowed it in theory to shoot down other jets. But I seriously doubt it would actually ever get deployed in such a role. I’d consider it a ground attacker that could defend itself, but to a greater degree than the Su-25s that came before it, and maybe in areas where air-superiority had not been established and thus enemy aircraft were more common and not what I’d consider a “true” mutli-role aircraft. A jet that can perform equally well in both CAP ( combat air patrol, AKA defending an area from other aircraft) or CAS. No matter what AAMs it could carry, it would never win in a 1v1 vs an actual air-superiority fighter, especially when at close range
and within the context of the game however, I dont think it should be considered that and quite frankly, do you want it to be considered that?
I do also wonder to what degree the Su-39s radar + AAMs were intended for taking out targets like Helicopters rather than jets?
It does raise the question of how to balance “True” multi-roles in the future. Do you go by its ARB performance or its GRB performance? For the Su-39, I think its best to balance for GRB. But what about others to come? Typhoon will likely be balanced for ARB, but what if its too strong in GRB?
This I dont doubt. BUT… that to me still does not translate to needing good performance in ARB. ARB by very nature is a WW2 era furball, few jets are actually suited for it currently in top tier. The Su-39 shouldnt ever be flown head long into that furball, even with powerful AAMs, This again is the perfect argument for an RB EC enviroment, something where the Su-39 can perform its main job of hitting ground targets, but can defend itself if attacked, the Su-39 though should never be the one on the offensive vs other air targets
I know what you’re talking about.
The Su-39 is not a multi-role aircraft in the sense that the Su-27 or F-16 are.
It is more of an attack aircraft for a wide range of missions. It was thought that it would deal with counter-terrorist operations and participate in localized conflicts.
It is convenient when you have an airplane that can carry serious weapons against air targets.
The Su-39 will never be equal to the F-14b, because the latter has class 4 flight performance indicators, has an outboard container with an excellent view, medium-range missiles and corrective bombs.
Don’t you think that for 2 steps of combat rating the f-14 gets a lot? It can literally do everything and in all situations.
I’m saying that the Su-39 shouldn’t be able to do all tasks at the same time, but it should be able to choose which one to do. Kopye radar can’t see upwards because of the hull of the airplane, don’t forget, plus you can’t have both thermal imager and kopye at the same time.
If I decide to fly with 2 R-27Rs and a Kopye, I will not have the thermal imager and sacrifice 2 A2G armament mounting locations. That’s fair.
Even with that said, the Su-39 and Harrier will not play on the same level as the f-16 against aviation, they just don’t have the flying qualities.
However, it will at least be some chance to fight back.
Right now the two R-60M’s are a joke, I literally shot down 1 or 2 times someone. everyone has tons of heat traps and I’m thinking of not even hanging those missiles at all. More chance of hitting Vikrhs by pointing manually.
Now these planes are simply powerless against any other aircraft - Tornado, f-16, mig-23, mig-27, mirage2000 - bet any of them.
Absolutely, though that is a BR compression issue. Especially when at top tier, they can be apprehensive about adding more tiers and pushing aircraft up.
As for the rest of it, you aren’t wrong, I have some concerns about Su-39+R-27Rs vs downtiers like the Jaguar Gr1a, but with that forced Radar vs Targetting pod choice, then we wont see Su-39s in GRB vs 9.7s/10 potentially just controlling the skies whilst firing off Vihkrs at tanks. That would truly be broken. and that would be my primary concern. So R-27Rs after targetting pod, and it shouldnt be quite as deadly of an addition.
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Now I’m pondering whether high level attackers, especially subsonic ones, should not be given the EW sub-weapon?
For example, the Su-39 had the Gardeniya active jamming station.
Types of jamming:
- pulse response jamming of amplifying and generator type;
- flicker jamming (provided when flying in pairs);
- antipode" interference (illumination of the underlying surface at flight altitudes from 50 to 500m);
- continuous noise interference;
- diverting by range and speed.
Sector of protection in the front or rear hemisphere, deg: - in azimuth 120;
- on the angle of place 60;
Weight, kg - not more than 70;
Operating temperature range, deg. C - from minus 60 to plus 60;
Maximum power, W - 65.
the outermost attachment point of the container instead of the R-60M. Seems like a fair trade.
Many jets are lacking ECM. Tornado should be able to swap a Boz pod for a sky shadow pod that provides much the same defence. It would be a big boost. Harrier gr7 is supposedly getting MAWS akin to that we see on helis soon as well. Also a big boost
But yes, enhancing its defences with ECM i think would be more balanced but no less effective than giving it strong AAMs