In terms of seeker lock-range yes but missile seekers would still be degraded in terms of tracking through chaff since the chaff would present a larger RCS compared to the target.
The Rafale that was confirmed shot down by a pakistani PL-15E was claimed to have been shot from over 200km, both sides of the conflict agree on this point. Pakistan claims the shot was from around 200km, while India claims it was launched from even further (I seem to remember ~230km claimed, but cant find the claim atm). Basically straddles the claimed claimed 217km R-37M kill from a Su-57, which itself has no evidence of the kill or claim, and is afaik the longest range kill claimed for the R-37M.
So the Rafale kill is most likely top 2 longest range air to air kill in the history of air combat, depending on who is closer to the truth between the Indians and Pakistanis (Pakistan has reason to claim the launch range was shorter, India has reason to claim it was longer, so its probs somewhere between both imo).
Of note, this also means the PL-15, which is the mainstay of the PLAAF, and its degraded export version PL-15E both likely significantly outrange basically all NATO fox 3’s barring the MBDA meteor and the american AIM-174B Gunslinger, while putting it in a similar range class as the R-37M. I’d also hazard a guess at saying 200km isnt even close to its max range, seeing as it managed to actually score a kill against a Rafale, indicating that either;
- It had a hefty amount of energy to spare and the Rafale was not able to kinematically defeat the missile
or - Rafales SPECTRA was not able to pick up the missile until it was too late (or was not able to pick it up at all).
Both likely being massively worrying scenarios for western nations, seeing as they likely now have some knowledge of the fact that the Chinese either massively outrange them, or have a significant lead in missile seeker tech, or even worse, both, on their mainstay missile, while only the less numerous, very expensive, specialized, or prototype missiles actually stand a chance to compete.
Either way though, its a VERY bad look for the Rafale, which ppl on these forums have been touting as one of the greatest jets ever made, to be shot down from similar ranges to those a 1980’s soviet jet was shot down by a modern 5th gen russian jet at, suggesting that the almost mythologized SPECTRA system and all the stealth features the French mains have been claiming makes the Rafale “basically a stealth jet” likely isnt doing a whole lot of much to curb the advantage the Chinese have over western nations in air combat at this point, considering a downgraded export missile was able to embarass a Rafale as thoroughly as it did. Not that it couldnt have happened to any other jet, but simply that it DID happen to the Rafale, suggesting their magic plane isnt so magic after all.
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I heard the Chinese adjusted the Pakistani PL-15E to “unlock” more range out of it. It’s definitely concerning but I don’t think the range difference between those PL15E and PLAAF PL15 is that big
standard pl-15e is 145 km, while pl-15 is who knows. do note there’s multiple variations of pl-15e tho
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Pakistan clearly being a pretty big partner with China probably got the best PL-15E version then
Likely just software changes to the control section and flight path. PL-15E claimed range prior to the 200km+ kill was 145km, while PLAAF PL-15’s publicly claimed range is 200-300km.
Range isnt the only likely difference. The PL-15 likely has a better seeker than that of the PL-15E, as seeker performance is likely what China cares more about other nations finding out over simply rocket motor tech, and some articles claim the SPECTRA system is under review because it didnt even manage to detect the PL-15E that shot down the Rafale (which is now know to have an AESA seeker), so theres a good chance the PL-15 is a fair bit better than anything NATO currently operates, and likely already on-par with the stuff we’re currently working on (Meteor NG/AIM-260 “jobs program”)
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su-57 doesn’t even carry r-37m on misisons. that’s nonsense
there’s hud footage of both a su-35s shooting a r37m from 170ish km with a time to kill at 217s for a mig-29, i think you’re mistaking time to kill/hit and target distance?
Funny enough I don’t think I’ve heard much about the SPECTRA’s tested performance against other aircraft. I wonder why
if the pl-15e was actually fired from that distance at over 200km, yes that would be longer than the longest ranged r-37m kill (around 170km ish range)
time to hit != range
I think western news outlets confused the 217 and the actual 170ish km the footage shows
just double checked, yes that bottom right number is a coutndown of time
This is afaik the longest claimed kill with an R-37M.
Nah, I’m just repeating the number claimed in the article. Its entirely possible they got the jet wrong or mistook the time to target for the range in km, either way, the 200km+ kill against the Rafale was from a longer range than anything else besides the above articles claim, so the point still stands that the Rafale is the victim of the longest ranged air to air combat kill in history, and not a good look for its vaunted stealth features and SPECTRA system.
The Rafale is claimed to have completely bricked the Su-35’s Irbis-E in Egyptian trials (though if you say that, the russian fanboys start crying and screaming that its all lies). Rafale fanboys and Rafale pilots will also say stuff along the lines of it being the greatest EW/DASS system ever made. Personally, I believe the Egypt claims, and think its a good system, but China likely trounces it with what they have at this point.
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military watch magazine is a garbage source considering they don’t even know the difference between time to hit and actual range when the hud footage is right there
here is original video, time to hit is 217 seconds and range is 170ish km
Spoiler
(OG poster mistakenly said range is 217, nonsense)
pl-15e though from what you’ve said seems to be shot from further range… did pakistan release hud footage of the sortie?
very weird. i didnt even know jet engines were measured on anything other than KGF
Really? They are frequently measured in lbf and kN
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KN and LBf, all convertible and interchangeable.
Ive just only ever seen jet thrust from a torque perspective rather than a horsepower one
I mean, sure, either way it doesnt change the fact that the currently known longest ranged air to air kill was from a PL-15E fired against a Rafale, and not an R-37M fired at an early MiG-29/Su-27, idk why you’re so stuck on this issue?
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i just dont understand how pl-15e was shot from 200+km when max range is 145 km according to avic (exporter of pl-15e)
like quartas said apparently china did some software delimiters but that still don’t make sense
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2 words: They lied
Nobody is stupid enough to actually give proper range figures for their missiles publicly…
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Those damn Marketing lies
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You know most nations that can actually produce stuff underestimate capabilities in public figures to try and reduce the speed at which foreign nations try and advance tech. Trying to avoid another Dreadnaught or F-15 situation