they show the armiger missile body
when the typhoon thread derails (weekly occurance) to talk about russian missiles for the like 3rd time
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It was referencing a patent about a dual pulse missile (happens to be a Russian patent) and the benefits of this type over a ramjet type. I don’t really see this as derailing unless y’all are going to get hung up on the fact that it was a Russian patent.
Anyhow, I was curious if Flame or anyone else had information stating the Meteor was useful at 25-35km alts. I understand this is irrelevant to the game, but it is pertinent as the Eurofighter utilizes this missile and if it can’t use it effectively against very high alt targets it would hinder its’ ability to intercept certain targets.
I meant it as this always happens in this thread and both parties refuse to go to a thread about missiles lmao
Because I was trying to ask Flame if he had any documents regarding the Meteor and it is most pertinent to the conversation of the Eurofighter as it is indeed the primary armament is it not? Perhaps there are Eurofighter documents with relevant information.
I understand that, BUT this is almost always how it spirals out of control. yes?
not trying to argue just trying to get people to remember that the thread gets blown up quite often
I don’t think it was spiraling, if you feel that it was feel free to point it out but the instant reaction from all the other people (who were the ones who got the German thread closed the first time, not me) is unwarranted.
There is simply no need to freak out when anything Russian sourced or related is posted. The game devs are Russian. There is an entire Russian forum. There are going to be comparisons to Russian equipment as that is the #1 threat from which the aircraft this discussion is about was built to counter.
I don’t have that much on Meteor to be honest. I think @DirectSupport and the French community probably have more.
You commented a link 3 minutes before I submitted my post. I had been typing it for a while before that and so did not see your comment.
End game performance is just the period of time while the missile is on terminal approach to the target. But however you want to define it the patent is only discussing end game performance at very high altitude, which as I mentioned is higher than any NATO aircraft currently operates so kind of irrelevant.
Nothing specific. What the patent says seems plausible, at very high altitudes there is little oxygen so ramjets don’t produce as much thrust. I don’t think you can draw any conclusions about lower (i.e. more practical) altitudes though.
The patent says that the main benefit of dual pulse rockets at high altitude comes from them having more thrust, due to not being air breathing. At lower altitudes ramjets will produce more thrust (while rockets produce less thrust) so that benefit is diminished or completely eliminated. The patent even says:
It should be noted that the advantage of the missile according to the proposed invention is most fully manifested at altitudes close to the maximum
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It is a point of concern for real world conditions but not so relevant for the game.
There are NATO aircraft that operated at that kind of altitude.
The U-2 operates close to 25km
The SR-71 operates beyond that.
The D-21 operated around 27km.
It is also worth noting the MiG-25/31 could operate at such altitudes briefly, as well as potentially the F-15, F-22, and others.
It makes sense why they have not equipped the MiG-31 with any kind of pulsejet powered air to air ordnance as far as I’m aware. I was hoping you had information on the Meteor that was relevant for comparisons though.
The SR-71 and D-21 are retired. And the U-2 can barely maintain level flight when operating at coffin corner let alone think about doing any sort of evasion, so your missile really doesn’t need much manoeuvring capability to hit it in those conditions.
I’m sure there are edge cases where having a missile capable of hitting targets at 25-35 km altitude would be useful, but they seem like they would be fairly few and far between.
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Future aircraft and ordnance is likely to be a concern that they’d want to address with the Eurofighter.
The other concern is that should a missile loft that high without a dual pulse motor, it will not be maneuverable enough to redirect against a lower altitude evasive target as easily.
The patent says that the proposed missile would be programmed to calculate its time to impact with the target and fire it’s second pulse such that motor burn out occurs within 1 second of impact. So it sounds like unless the second pulse burns for a long amount of time (which given the amount of fuel available would necessitate a lower thrust level, diminishing it’s claimed advantage over ramjets) the hypothetical dual pulse missile would be unpowered during the loft, only firing the second pulse on terminal approach.
Or as needed to ensure it still hits the target, sure.
Ever heared of the FACS and tempest programms?
Those include the development of new missles.
The Meteor at that point wont even be the main armament anymore propably
This debate gives me gajin stinger nerfs flashbacks: " Because strela can’t, stinger can’t" another timeless piece of Gajin logic
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I haven’t, could you describe them further?
Another good reason the patent is relevant to the Typhoon / Meteor discussion
they are two six gen aircraft projects, one from Germany, France and Spain (SCAF), while the other one is being develop by Italy,UK and Japan (GCAP).
As @x_Shini mentioned, both programmes include the creation of new air to ground and air to air ammunition (Meteor won’t probably be theyr main armament).
This is what I would say, and why I question MiG’s line of questioning altogether. Apart from lofting Air to Surface weapons, and perhaps Theatre Ballistic Missiles… what would actually target in that region of altitude anyway?
Even TBMs are a stretch, since you’re unlikely to be firing at them from launch, and they have a very high rate of descent in the diving phase, making the whole thing a bit redundant.
I can see lofting Air to Surface weapons, but most Air to Surface weapons tend to fly low now for the sake of evading missiles trying to intercept them… such as is MiG suggesting. The only other feasible case I could see Mig having a point is if you really wanted to intercept an in-flight A/A weapon… but… such a missile would also have to descend at some point.
To summarise: to all intents and purposes, the vast majority (unless someone has something developed otherwise that we don’t know about) of targets in that region either a) don’t manouevre sufficiently, or b) descend anyway, thus the whole issue is a non starter.
I would be curious as to what sort of target (other than loitering Drones and high alt reconnaisance aircraft, neither of which manouevre particularly well) that you might suggest a Meteor be fired at.
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Why would a pulse motor be larger in the first place?
It might be that pulse jets have more pure propellant weight for a theoretical same sized missile, as a ramjet has the additional mass of air intakes and gas generator, but the propellant is much less efficient per weight unit
A normal missile has to carry all its oxidizer in its fuel (for the Space Shuttles SRB, the only thing I found quick numbers, its ~70% of the propellant mixtures weight being oxidizer)
Meteor on the other hand has an oxygen-deficient propellant, so much more fuel per weight
This is also the same reason why Meteor performs this badly in very high altitudes, low air density = low amount of oxygen for the ramjet.
The same btw is also true for all kinds of jet aircraft. Even the MiG-31 has a service ceiling of just around 20km, with all other jets being way below that