Eurofighter Typhoon (UK versions) - Technical data and discussion (Part 2)

[Morvran]

and no one is disputing that.

ASRAAM was not designed for ultra short range dogfighting, which is why they opted to not have TVC. It was designed for shoot first kill first.

THough the fact it can still engage in a 360° envelope despite not having TVC I think is more impressive.

[Morvran]

Yep, and unlike the Rafale, the Typhoon’s more advanced MAWS will detect a MICA IR coming at it, but the Rafale wont detect an ASRAAM

[Scuzz]

@Morvran_

but the Rafale wont detect an ASRAAM

why?

[Morvran]

UV MAWS will only detect it when the motor is burning. After that it wont. So if its fired beyond its range, then the MAWS on the Rafale is useless. Typhoon’s MAW will detect it throughout its flight even after the motor has finished burning.

[luque13]

Are we still going on about ASRAAM and MICA…This is like the French dude that wouldn’t shut up about PIRATE and how it’s 70s technology.

Both are very good missiles, you want to see how fast ASRAAM is go and compare an ASRAAM launch in Ukraine with a IRIS-T SLS launch in Ukraine.

ASRAAM is insanely fast

[sudo_su1]

@MBDA_MICA

I haven’t seen anyone mention this, but I think it is fair to say, that ASRAAM will be caried in bigger numbers than MICA. I will be playing 6x ASRAAM + 4x AIM-120B. On Rafale I would play 2x MICA-IR and 6x MICA-EM.

This will result in more kills easily.

Yeah, as I said in the comment(s) that started this heated debate about ASRAAM vs MICA, later Typhoon as a platform will have more things going for it vs later Rafale, one being the ability to carry more missiles.

@sudo_su1

Well
When AESA Typhoon comes, it will have a better radar than Rafale
Striker II will also be a better HMD (depending on how it gets implemented)

More missiles
Better air to ground weapons (If IR AASM gets nerfed)

Flight performances are close and the small difference might not matter as much at that point. Plus EF is faster …

As I said earlier, the only potential advantage Rafale will have will be IR MICA (NG)'s longer range and thrust vectoring (And MICA EM’s thrust vectoring)

@sudo_su1

The mechanical steering of the CAPTOR-E would give it the ability to maintain lock / view of the target while staying in the notch (though not as good as Su-35’s 60 + 60 = 120 deg steering):

Spoiler

Rafale’s RBE2 is limited to 70 deg for comparison.

It will also carry more missiles than Rafale.

The main advantage of Rafale will be the IR MICA and IR MICA NG, though the effectiveness of those remains to be seen, given most of the planes that they face will have MAW.

[sudo_su1]

@Morvran_

It was designed for shoot first kill first.

Kill first, die second :)

(Because the enemy also already launched; And if he’s not aware of you, then MICA should get the same job done as ASRAAM)

@Morvran_

THough the fact it can still engage in a 360° envelope despite not having TVC I think is more impressive.

I think the “360 deg envelope” is a bit misleading

It obviously has significantly larger minimum range than something with TVC like MICA in off boresight shots …

And hitting targets “behind the aircraft” mainly refers to hitting targets “behind the wing line” …

[Morvran]

@sudo_su1

I think the “360 deg envelope” is a bit misleading

It can engage in a 360 degree area. Fact.

[sudo_su1]

@Morvran_

UV MAWS will only detect it when the motor is burning. After that it wont. So if its fired beyond its range, then the MAWS on the Rafale is useless. Typhoon’s MAW will detect it throughout its flight even after the motor has finished burning.

I think it’s IR

[Morvran]

Same difference

[vizender]

@MBDA_MICA

fair to say, that ASRAAM will be caried in bigger numbers than MICA. I will be playing 6x ASRAAM + 4x AIM-120B. On Rafale I would play 2x MICA-IR and 6x MICA-EM.

But the MICA EM and IR are interchangeable… meaning that the rafale can a carry 8 MICA IR (or 6 for earlier variants), if he choses to not carry any EM.

@Morvran_

UV MAWS will only detect it when the motor is burning. After that it wont. So if its fired beyond its range, then the MAWS on the Rafale is useless. Typhoon’s MAW will detect it throughout its flight even after the motor has finished burning.

That’s untrue when it comes to the DDM NG equipped on rafale F3 and later, since we have primary sources stating that the MAW can detect missiles with their skin temperature.

@luque13

Are we still going on about ASRAAM and MICA…This is like the French dude that wouldn’t shut up about PIRATE and how it’s 70s technology.

Indeed, the son versatile is going a bit in circles. I originally just wanted to challenge the discussions on the actual performance of the ASRAAM, which brought very good informations, but right now it’s just everyone doubling down on their own beliefs

@Morvran_

It can engage in a 360 degree area. Fact.

So can the MICA, and IRIS-T, and AIM9X… however how tight the turning circle is also very important. I think the ASRAAM would have the largest turning circle since it’s faster and lacks TVC.

[sudo_su1]

@Morvran_

Same difference

https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO%20Technical%20Reports/RTO-AG-300-V28/$$AG-300-V28-ALL.pdf

[luque13]

@vizender

So can the MICA, and IRIS-T, and AIM9X… however how tight the turning circle is also very important. I think the ASRAAM would have the largest turning circle since it’s faster and lacks TVC.

F/A-18 / AIM-132 ASRAAM Integration, Test and Clearance Program

EDIT this isn’t the full document…let me try and find the testing side

Declassified document on ASRAAM testing on Australian airframes.

It’s time to stop speculating and go and find some data and come back with focused point and not just what you think

[vizender]

@luque13

EDIT this isn’t the full document…let me try and find the testing side

MP-AVT-108-06.pdf

@luque13

It’s time to stop speculating and go and find some data and come back with focused point and not just what you think

Wow, that’s indeed a great document that contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation, since it does not mention the capabilities of the ASRAAM itself whatsoever.

And forgive me from using the assumption that faster Non TVC missile turns in a longer radius that slower missile with TVC. It’s not like there’s a physical explanation to that and should be contested with completely irrelevant documentation

[luque13]

Because it is the same old chat for the last several posts. Yes you can have your views but without data it is speculation.

You can believe the MICA is the best missile in the world and that is fine. However you cannot prove what it can do and what it cant do. The same as no one here can prove what ASRAAM can do or can’t do.

There is a previous document outlining firing envelopes I thought it was on the acceptance test criteria one.

[Morvran]

@luque13

The same as no one here can prove what ASRAAM can do or can’t do.

Flame can, he’s got the docs from various sources. Those are going to be some fun bug reports to read.

[luque13]

Depends if Gaijin think it’s possible look what they said about Stingers and other missiles that use lift body principles

[sudo_su1]

@luque13

You can believe the MICA is the best missile in the world and that is fine.

That title obviously belongs to Fakour-90 :)

@luque13

However you cannot prove what it can do and what it cant do. The same as no one here can prove what ASRAAM can do or can’t do.

I think everyone agrees that MICA is much better in close range HOBS shots than ASRAAM …

Sure, IRIS-T is even better in that situation, but the difference between MICA and IRIS-T is smaller than the difference between MICA and ASRAAM in that regard …

I.e. MICA sacrifices a little close range performance vs IRIS-T as a trade off for much longer range
ASRAAM sacrifices a lot more close range performance vs not just IRIS-T but even vs MICA and it doesn’t even get as much range as MICA …
In return, ASRAAM gets the ability to hit targets a bit faster than MICA in (most likely) part (not all) of its range / envelope …

@sudo_su1

I think you are assuming that ASRAAM will have shorter time to target than MICA throughout its entire envelope / range, which is not necessarily correct.

For example Magic II accelerates faster than AIM-9M and hits a higher top speed, but it also loses its speed faster and while it has better time to target for the first half of its flight, it has worse time to target for the second half.

Likewise ASRAAM will likely have better TTT than MICA for the lower part of its range, but worse TTT for the upper part of its range …

[Morvran]

Yeah… Though at the same time look at anything with TVC.

MICA IR and IRIS-T are screwed

[sudo_su1]

@Morvran_

Yeah… Though at the same time look at anything with TVC.

MICA IR and IRIS-T are screwed

They will probably have to improve the TVC implementation given the new IRIS-T SPAAs