It is implemented :) Including the armor in the middle of the turret (tricky to see it, you have to clip into the turret with Nvidia Ansel, but it’s there).
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So, the vessel is released on the dev server, and… it’s layout makes it super-easy to ammo-rack from almost any angle by pretty much every single BR 7.0 AP shell.
🤦♂️☠
It’s survivability is effectively zero in 1 vs 1 against any BR 7.0 battleship or battlecruiser.
BUT plenty of other battleships have ammo racks that can be depleted - perhaps this is our solution for the problem, as she stores magazines and shell rooms side by side, so they could just make it depelte the upper magazine and shell room first, and only then use the lower one.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/ZmpqOFdNp1cn
Please, click the link above, and press “I have same issue!”, so that she would be given at least some fighting chance 🙏
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There is also a bug report about the lack of pen of the SAP shell :
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/IpFPSqCeC7hI
540mm of pen a 1000 is just blasphemous, if anyone can find or have a proper french source for the 330 mm/50 (13") Model 1931, please let them know !!!
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French Battleships 1914-45 – Ryan K_ Noppen, Paul Wright
I dont know if its proper source, but if i have more sources, i ll gonna post it here
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Here you go once again, the good old Gajin hate for French TT…
So someone litteraly called the french “Services Historique de la Defence” and they answered they don’t have any numbers about the AP values … (Basically we are scewed Gajin Devs will do what they want)
Then the topic shifted towards the fact that the shell is identified as a SAP shell but IR it is more or less an APCBC shell and most likely acted like one, even the germans classified it as an AP shell.
But a Bug Reporting Manager brushed aside in the old cold fashioned way this idea, because “YoU Don’T HaVE SouRcES”:
Time to send them the actual shell that rust somewhere in a museum
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The game uses its on calculator anyway. Proving that the shell was APCBC, instead of SAPCBC would be more effective.
It’s a good point, but I searched through 10 different books, and NONE of them point to the shell being either SAPCBC or APCBC.
Everyone just call it “Armor-piercing” (as is the shell designation - Obus Perforant / OPf).
As far as my awful translation skills go, Les cuirasses Dunkerque et Strasbourg by Robert Dumas also calls it simply the Obus Perforant.
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I am natif french, i have this book and i can confirm your translation is ok ;)
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That whole “it’s SAP shell” seems to come from NavWeaps’ original research, not backed by any sources. On a purely factual level, it might be correct, I do not have the competency to judge that.
But it seems quite inconsistent given that Izmail’s shells are marked as HE (not even HE-BF), because that’s what is in the Russian sources, even though effectively they are SAP (see the table at the end of this comment). Yet Dunkerque’s shells are AP in the French sources, and yet, we don’t get them marked as AP. 🤔
Whether the % of explosive filler in the shell is high enough to suggest these are SAPCBC is also highly debatable, I think.
(Image of the Dunkerque’s 330 mm from the French Battleships, 1922–1956 by John Jordan and Robert Dumas showing the cap and ballistic cap (CBC) part of the shell)
If we’re playing with doing the original research, like NavWeaps did, here’s a table of a number of shells of somewhat comparable calibres that we already have in the game, and the percentage of the HE filler:
| Gun | Clibre | In-game shell type | Total mass | Mass of the bursting charge | % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 330 mm/50 Model 1931 | 330 | HE | 522 | 63,5 | 12,16% |
| 12-inch/52 pattern 1907 | 305 | SAPCBC | 470,9 | 55,2 | 11,72% |
| 36 cm/45 Type 41 | 356 | SAPCBC | 635,58 | 68,64 | 10,80% |
| 14-inch/52 pattern 1913 | 356 | HE (Izmail) | 732 | 75,85 | 10,36% |
| 12 inch/50 Mark XI | 305 | SAPCBC | 386 | 36,3 | 9,40% |
| SK L/45 | 380 | SAP | 750 | 67,1 | 8,95% |
| 12-inch/50 Mark 8 | 305 | HE (Alaska) | 426,38 | 35,31 | 8,28% |
| 13.5 inch/45 Mark 5(H) | 343 | SAPCBC | 635 | 50,3 | 7,92% |
| 14 inch/45 Mk.12 | 356 | HE (Texas) | 635 | 47,62 | 7,50% |
| 330 mm/50 Model 1931 | 330 | SAPCBC | 560 | 20,3 | 3,63% |
| 305 mm/50 SK L/50 | 305 | APC | 405,5 | 13,6 | 3,35% |
| SK L/45 | 380 | APCBC | 750 | 25 | 3,33% |
| 13.5 inch/45 Mark 5(H) | 343 | APCBC | 635 | 20,2 | 3,18% |
| 12 inch/50 Mark XI | 305 | APC | 389,8 | 12 | 3,08% |
| 12 inch/50 Mk.7 | 305 | APC | 394,62 | 11,34 | 2,87% |
| 12-inch/52 pattern 1907 | 305 | APCBC | 470,9 | 12,96 | 2,75% |
| 305 mm/50 SK L/50 | 305 | SAP | 410 | 10,8 | 2,63% |
| 305 mm/54 B-50 | 305 | APCBC | 470,9 | 12,2 | 2,59% |
| 14 inch/45 Mk.12 | 356 | APCBC | 635 | 15,55 | 2,45% |
| 13.5 inch/45 Mark 5(H) | 343 | APCBC | 639,6 | 15 | 2,35% |
| 12-inch/50 Mark 8 | 305 | APCBC | 517 | 7,89 | 1,53% |
I don’t know about you, but the Dunkerque’s shells have a more typical filler for the AP rounds the the SAP. Yes, it is on the high end of the AP - as multiple sources directly state - but it seems to be more of an AP round none the less. 🤷♂️
Heck, now that I look at these numbers, I have more questions about HE shells from USS Texas and SAP shells from 305 mm/50 SK L/50 than I do about Dunkerque’s being APCBC 👀
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It’s getting severely screwed on the penetration values.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-109.php
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That is a result of handling rooms below the barbette being included as part of the magazine/shell room’s hitboxes. This allow shells penetrate the barbette to detonate magazines with blast and splinter damage. In this case her citadel armour becomes irrelevant. She’s not the only ship having this problem but she’s certainly one of the most severely affected ones.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. Would you be so kind and elaborate / capture a picture in the x-ray view of what I should be looking at?
Because what I see in the X-ray seems to be matching the plans from French Battleships, 1922–1956 and Les cuirasses Dunkerque et Strasbourg pretty much spot-on. In the game there is no ammo directly in the ammo elevators.
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Yep it’s officialy dead and buried guys…
Dunkerque will be awfull to play …
It’s not even live and I’m already grieving it, and probably won’t even touch it.
GG Devs ! ( Or should I say WW2 french naval equipement historians )
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Do you think someone gets paid extra to make naval bad? People really want to like it, and Gaijin goes out of their way to screw it up.
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It has more to do with the facts that Gajin Devs can’t help themselves but bash anything French related even when they try not to, If they ever try.
Making up stats for ships that never sailed, with magical numbers: Check
Accept a little detail that may help a ships that look terrible on the Dev Server and so mabye make it more attractive and competitive: Nuh uh
They have full controll on what a vehicle has to be in-game, It’s challenge impossible to change their minde.
I just can’t take their acts of bad faith and gaslight anymore, They are sooo predictable.
Anyway If someone has a 330 mm/50 1931 OPf that’s rusting in it’s atics, It’s maybe time to shine!
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You want to take a trip to Les Invalides?
330mm shell for French Battleship Dunkerque and Strasbourg. Taken by me in September 2006 at the French Army Museum at Les Invalides.
Edit: added picture and link description.
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It looks like there are some ammo in the elevator, at least in the plans. But I don’t know of it model in game.
It is from a book name “Cent ans de Cuirassés Français”
and for the canon:
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Yea, that same graphic is in the Les cuirasses Dunkerque et Strasbourg - my interpretation is that it just illustrates the process, it doesn’t mean that the ammunition handling procedures on the vessels allowed for the shells to be being permanently stored in the elevator. Also, I said “In the game there is no ammo directly in the ammo elevators.”
HK says that the “handling rooms below the barbette being included as part of the magazine/shell room’s hitboxes. This allow shells penetrate the barbette to detonate magazines with blast and splinter damage”
But the way Gaijin implemented it, seems to be actually quite beneficial to the vessel, as I do not see her to store any ammo in the elevators (barbettes or directly below the barbettes), so I’m not sure what he is referring to.
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I think he refer to this discussion about the shell room:
Where they talk about shell room under the barbette exploding on the american BB iirc.
The visual appearance of the X-ray model is not relevant to the hitbox’s dimension. The space you’re looking at is part of the hitbox of the magazine and shell room even if there’s nothing visually present there.
You can inspect the actual hitbox of modules in CDK:
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I hope for add ap sheel, the dunkerque never have the sap, onely AP, it’s an abuse of langage
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_projectiles.php
and