Currently Obj279’s 130mm APCBC can go right through that turret ring.
That is physically impossible but according to Gaijin its realistic…
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Not true, some will most definitely perform better than others.
Without getting into Italian matchmaking/lineups, I never said I was an amazing player.
Assuming that all players in this comparison are of the same skill level. A BVM or Type 10 will get stomped by a 2A7/122 player of similar skill just as hard as an M1A2.
Let alone the CR2/3, T-90M, Merkava Mk.4s, Leclercs, VT-4 etc. Those tanks will easily get stomped a lot harder by a 2A7/122 than the M1A2/Type 10/BVM get.
this isn’t quantifiable. Type 10 and BVM can win against 2A7 and 122 tanks. It isn’t that crazy. same for abrams. Just saying, abrams is less likely than the BVM and Type 10 to actually do anything. I don’t want spall liners for it but just saying that the advantages of the other tanks outweigh the abrams.
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I don’t know about all that, the turret ring is pretty big
How big do you think modern APFSDS penetrators are?
105/120/125mm penetrators have widths in the 20-26mm range.
They rely on being thin to force energy into a smaller area and long to provide penetrative power.
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It wouldn’t penetrate the side of the turret where there is composite armor, but the side of the hull is only steel + side skirts. That’s why they installed ERA for additional RPG protection in urban environments.
All of these 3 tanks have 1 somewhat significant advantage over the 2A7/122 (reload for the Abrams/Type 10 and forward mobility) while also having multiple glaring weaknesses.
The M1A2s are pretty well in line with the Type 10s and BVM. The asymmetrical balance between these 3 is pretty good. So they do perform similar to eachother when facing the 2A7/122. Although I do have to admit that the map does have influence on that.
Also yeah I’m not saying they should or shouldn’t give the M1A2s spall liners. Imo they should add the SEPv3 as a 2A7/122 counterpart though.
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the side is made out of composites / steel they added ERA for more advanced A.T weapons. and IEDs the RPG-7V can’t penetrate anywhere on the abrams and the RPG VLs cant get past the tusk.
Oh id disagree, half of what killed me from 122/2a7v would be remedied by a type 10. It’s the follow up shot, and normally that follow up shot happens quite literally less than a half second before I can fire again from the sep. so a 4 second reload would have been a follow up kill shot.
I side shot them perfectly, their turret ring, breech and all is somehow fine, but a crew member or 2 died. They turn, 90’ find me and shoot me.
Now it’s dumb I don’t go back into cover cuz I think I’ll finish them in time, but it’s always like RIGHT before my reload occurs, which the type 10 would fix.
The rest, I agree with you. With the equal skill level depending on the style of play they use. If it was me, the type 10 would remedy the issues I have. With them, if it was bvm, I’d be screwed worse.
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Isn’t this only relative to tungsten penetrators? Uranium don’t mushroom since they can’t bend, but fracture. So a Du penetrator wouldn’t really expand a hole much either comparatively.
I read a conversation(not here) at one point about people discussing DU vs tungsten and while depleted uranium pens further in a vacuum(not literally, but meaning round for round into unlimited thick plate), tungsten will do about the same in modern day applications because the armor it’s penning isn’t infinitely thick.
So the problem of mushrooming isn’t such a big deal.
BUT
Wouldn’t this also create more spall? A thicker mushrooming penetrator creating a bigger diameter to push out, vs a DU penetrator that shears and relies on secondary pyrophoric effects once penetrated to cause damage.
Meaning a spall liner is more important for tungsten penetrators than uranium?
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That is true. DU sharpens as it goes through. I not sure what the exit hole would look like I would imagine smaller than the entry. DU would also ignite on the inside of the tank killing everything inside something not modeled in the game.
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Yeah I think it would be cool if they added something like this. Tungsten having better spall cones, but DU penetrators wounding everyone on the inside, so at a minimum the guys are yellow if you pen, And you’re more likely to kill with tungsten from a better spall cone.
Though I’m not sure how a spall liner catches a DU penetration or its spall. Since if the round fragments off. I’d wager insanely hot pieces of metal go through a Kevlar catch unless there’s diagrams that show otherwise which I’d love to see.
The same reason when I was in the Army we could do fuck all against EFP’s. The hot metal would go through everything and when I last read on it, glass was the only thing that relatively slowed it down by cooling it, but wasn’t practical. But my memory is fuzzy on it, it’s been over a decade since I deployed where EFPs were the talk of the town.
So I’m not really seeing how a spall liner is SUPER relevant for a DU penetrator. Once it’s in, it’s gonna fill with flammable particles and the entry hole shouldn’t be much smaller than the exit, the spall liner isn’t catching it, and what makes the round so effective has little to do with spalling by my understanding. And I’d assume the hot chunks of metal punching through would go through Kevlar like hot copper(EFP) did through metal, vests and sapi’s.
So if we were really looking to model things for the game, it would appear to me(and I’d love to learn from someone more knowledgeable) that a spall liner isn’t really doing much against a DU penetrator from what understanding I have on it. There isn’t huge spalling coming off a small hole.
But at this point I’m spitballing and hoping someone bites to learn me some new sheeeit. I’m not really knowledgeable and just parsing together the few things I do know.
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a D.U Penetrator would melt / incinerate everything behind it igniting any fuel and ammo, due to its pyrophoric effect post penetration… That’s why i have always said, there are no D.U weapons in this game.
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What ever a D.U Penetrator hits, also catches fire. Less spall = less things catching fire. I guess kevlar would melt if it did catch any spall from the D.U rod itself. I also think they did test on the m11a3’s spall liners, but that wasn’t with D.U i think Live Fire Test and Evaluation of M113A3 Armored Personnel Carrier Spall Liners (dtic.mil)
I read somewhere that the spall liner was built into the hull armor behind the internal metal plates, I cant remember where I saw that but I suppose that some metal or kevlar spall liner would catch the spall when the round pens the external armor and then have to deal with the inside layer of metal (most likely panels to cover electronics and wiring) after having all the spall caught by the liner in between the external armor plate and the wiring/interior panels. I saw a picture of the inside of the tank somewhere on the bug reports that showed the internal plating to be secured by screws so there must be some sort of spall liner since the US army likes redundant safety mechanisms. Surely they wouldn’t be so overconfident that they cant be penetrated that they say the PPE worn by crew is enough.
Issue with that is then the inner metal plate would spall. Might be less but proving such would be hard.
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Or even not at all. In War Thunder, plates with a thickness of 4mm and below don’t generate any spall at all;
So- if the Abrams DID have an internal spall liner behind a 2mm thick metal sheet covering them, they would be as effective (if not even more, since the 2mm thick plate would be an additional spall liner) as regular spall liners.
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In war thunder that makes sense. But if you put a thin metal sheet behind a spall liner i would think it would produce spall wouldn’t it?
Well, not really. If it’s a 2mm metal sheet, there really isn’t any metal to spall; rather, the shell would punch through it just like butter.
For example, a Shilka that was hit by an APFSDS shell; notice how the hole is just the perfect shape of the rod and the fins? There was no spalling at all, the shell just sliced in through.
And that’s 9mm… now imagine 1-2mm.
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