Agaon proving my point, these arent insults, im pointing out how you keep spealing as if your words are as valuable as gold you provide no sources, yet keep making claims, this is the forst time ive seen you use the world opinion whem referring to one of your opinions, and this response further evidentiates that. Provide me with either a source for your claim, or a proof of your credibility, especially qhen your claims contradict what actual sources state.
Otherwise please try to put some effort into being more humble.
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No different than stating something obvious such as “the sky is blue”, or “grass is green”. Kevlar in front of, rather than behind a metal object will not prevent spalling that occurs from the metal that is BEHIND it.
The OP explains it perfectly well on its’ own… you have yet to provide a SINGLE source or picture that shows the Abrams has a legitimate internal spall liner (it doesn’t).
This isn’t about pride. If it was about pride, I’d be hiding in shame over the fact that my countries main battle tank has no true internal spall liner when stuff like the VT-4 does.
People are saying the Kevlar/composite sandwich is after, not before the 100mm steel plate…
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Except it’s not because last I checked the standoffs and weld marks are not possible if they were made of kevlar or composite materials. This is all visible on any picture / video of the tank to ever exist.
As you can see, there is no spall liner on the interior of the crew compartment. Nothing.
(There are spall vests, though)… :)
All of these images from the OP btw, where it is explained VERY WELL. Please if y’all wanna continue arguing just give it a read first…
check out mr coldwar post under this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/18lri4t/why_didnt_the_abrams_get_a_spall_liner/
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again you are using your own ARBITRARY definition of something you havent provided enough proof you understand nor you have given anybody reason to believe your opinion is in any way valuable, to define what a spall liner is and should look like, does your work include knowing how to reduce the spall from advanced composite armor being penetrated, do you have any relevant competence regarding this? do you have any proof besides “i believe so” that just because the “spall liner” is between the plates it isnt a “spall liner”?
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You are attacking my person and credentials on the subject but the burden of proof is on you to prove there is a spall liner. I’ve provided photo evidence that there is indeed no internal layer. Feel free to show me I’m wrong.
What is this supposed to show? The post was deleted.
and as i already said, you cant expect to find that degree of proof regarding the armor of the mbt currently in service by the strongest country on earth. count trackula has already done a fairly extensive job arguing all of OP’s claims. you havent, your cant fathom the idea that a spall line place before the armor can interact with the armor behind it. and again this kind of tech would’ve to do with the fabrication of the armor itself which would be ALOT to ask to know about a currently fielded Mbt.
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Not sure how you came to that conclusion. There is even a Wikipedia article discussing the different methods of welding advanced composites.
As for the standoffs: Permali, the company which produces spall liners for the UK, says this on their website:
Permali has closed moulding, CNC machining, assembly, coating and painting facilities to manufacture flat, curved and elliptically shaped spall liners. If specified by a customer, spall liners can be supplied complete with bonded in thermal and acoustic insulation, fixing point holes and metal inserts.
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im not attacking your person(unless calling you arrogant is attacking you which then yes i did), im not attacking your credentials, im attacking your argument which literally doesnt exist, all you do is say "this doesnt work, this doesnt exist see? nothing there(multiple reason why that is a stupid statement all of them have been debated already ) also burden of proof? the op has provided his research and he has properly explained his points, other people have already plenty discussed the op’s points already if you just scroll up a bit). also regarding the reddit you just need to scroll into the replies there is a dude named codename_coldwar which talks about most of the points in here already).
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Any idea what this serves? It looks like it’s purpose is to shield the gunner but why would it be thicker below and not all the way up?
I can put a magnet on the spots you think are composites and take a picture if you’d like me to, but it’s not necessary. The images above show you that the metal interior of the turret does not have a spall liner. From factory floor to production vehicles in service there is no change to the interior armor layout.
Permali looks like this.
Please reference my post wherein you can clearly see the metal top layer of roof armor, the welds attached to it, and the standoffs for everything including the hole in the turret where the thermals and gunners electronics hang.
That’s just the aluminum slide / guard that keeps the commander from putting his body somewhere where the breach can recoil and hit him. Here is another angle.
I’m sure you can, but that doesn’t really prove much when there is a huge chunk of steel behind any potential liners, and the sandwiched layers can also incorporate layers of metal in them. Unless your helmet has a built in ultrasound device, resting your head on the walls at work isn’t definitive proof of what they are made from.
That’s one specific product Permali produces. Their website says they produce spall liners of different types and dimensions based on customer needs. Then there is the fact that Permali isn’t the only spall liner producer in the world, and others are likely different.
Ultimately I don’t really mind if the Abrams doesn’t get liners. The reload speed buff is a much bigger boon imo. I’m just pointing out that seeing the fixing points and weld marks is not definitive proof there is no spall liner. In the last comment you assumed composites couldn’t be welded at all, which is wrong.
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Again, I don’t need to. The steel baseplate armor is all you get on the inside and that is very VERY evident from the photos I’ve shared. So glad you’ve completely ignored this any time it was mentioned.
Would you mind finding me an example that looks anything like the Abrams internal steel baseplate armor?
Glad you’ve come around to acceptance. Now for the others.
Pointing out that they are the same welds as the base armor of the turret from the production photos =/= composites cannot be welded.
I’m a bit sceptical the US government publishes photographs/gives basic crewmen tours of the factory for all production/assembly stages of their classified tanks.
You said:
I’m not sure if gaslighting and/or backtracking when corrected is against the rules, but it isn’t very professional, and it diminishes credibility.
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Look at the photos, then look at the photos some more.
I too would hang my entire thermal array through the roof of the turret from some kevlar / composite standoffs. I too would make my kevlar spall liner look like it has the same weld marks as the factory turret interior armor. /s
my brother in christ we’ve been seeing those same photos since the thread started.
