Damn so it is Russian bias because the f15, Eurofighter and the Rafale can all do that?
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Context is important:
British documents concerning the Leclerc’s armour is valid insofar as a few considerations are recognised:
- Data concerning the Leclerc’s armour was provided by a French government establishment, this being ETAS.
- The French were genuinely interested in cooperation with the British. If we refer to statements from Giat’s president at the time, the French found that the British were the only country in Europe that could actually bring something to the table in terms of technology.
- Leclerc was still in the prototype phase.
The Rafale is a different story, however:
a. There is no clarity as to what information was actually provided by the French government. Dassault itself was restricted from providing “capability data” without government authorisation.
b. I’ve yet to see information to suggest the French were actually interested in cooperating with a foreign partner for the Rafale (unlike the Leclerc). Albeit I’m not very informed on the Rafale’s history. Which brings us back to 'why would France provide capability data to the UK when the latter has its own possible competitor; and therefore, how much of the UK’s data is based on their own estimations which (at least when it comes to France) have known to be incredibly pessimistic estimations?
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Gripen was on parity with available credible sources regarding its fm (and very little else, as most other features were and are subpar compared to documentation) after the first few nerfs with the exception of energy retention which was overperforming, and now is well underperforming even the least credible sources. It is irksome that people insist that it is overperforming in the face of it quite blatantly not.
Disliking running into it does not make it overperforming. Otherwise following that logic Rafale overperforms by orders of magnitude from the bickering about it in other threads. Just a little irksome.
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We finally got somewhat of an update on the Rafale topspeed report, and you can read it here for yourself. We know currently:
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UK requested some information from France and supplemented missing data by using open source information. Information from France supplied seems to be limited data, and could possibly be data on Rafale A or even Rafale C with F404 engine mounted on the F-18 Hornet that provides subpar supersonic acceleration. The report tries to suggest Rafale has subpar supersonic acceleration.
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The open source information collected by UK would have been Rafale A or C using F404 engines, since in the 1990’s information on the M88 engines were highly secretive.
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Later document shows that France declined to give UK information on the Rafale. It would not make sense for France to have given information on the Rafale C with M88 engine earlier on but then decline to give the same data. The likely limited data given earlier is on highly probable to not be relevant to what is in-game.
All of this is to say that the report didn’t have any proof that the supersonic data in the report is directly from Dassault or that it pertains to the M88 engine.
Rafale C Top Speed Much Too High // Gaijin.net // Issues
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I hate to do this but if Fireball is gonna keep inaccurately reporting on the Rafale with faulty reports, might as well do an accurate report to correct Eurofighter’s MAWS.
Eurofighter’s radar-based MAWS should emit radar signature // Gaijin.net // Issues
If you guys can give this report a like, I’d appreciate the favor.
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Not against you, but being petty is not the mindset anyone should have.
But yeah it’s important to make sure things are reported accurately and i do thanks everyone doing such things as it can be hard to find sources and end up still find yourself in front of a wall with the way the devs can handle things.
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If the report is based on Sources from early '90s, its very likely faulty and based on partially incorrect interpreted Data. The information is very likely based on Rafale A or C01 testbeds; i.e. prototypes which have yet again nothing to do with service aircraft.
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Correct, both the limited data and certainly the open source data would have been from engines/aircrafts that have nothing to do with what we have. It is likely even that even if the data was on the Rafale A, the information would be quite old compared to newer sources we have.
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Random, but do you know if the Scorpion HMD on Rafale is the same Scorpion HMD that was put on ANG F-16’s, and tested on the F-22?
Yes, that is correct. Thales Scorpion was allegedly an HMD made by a US company before France had obtained the company and absorbed it.
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Oh ok. That explains why I saw 2 different manufacturers for it
One of the things ive found annoying int this EFT vs Rafale saga is that the Rafale stans seem to take any presumed accurate report on the Rafale as an attack on them, while the EFT stans seem to just shrug it off and keep working on other things.
Accurate modelling of your prefered aircraft should not be seen as a bad thing regardless of if its a buff or nerf.
The Rafale SEP report seems accurate, and thats likely the reason why the report was converted to a suggestion (ie: will be kept in the wings for balance) instead of outright denied. Its likely the Rafale is inferior to the EFT in supersonic/high alt acceleration, qnd afaik none of the Rafale stans have actually come up with any counterproof to it, theyve just tried to discredit the reported source.
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This report was faulty from the start. Everyone here knows I’m quick to report a nerf. I just recently submitted a report to have all Mirage 2000s and Mirage 4000 reduced in the number of targets tracked.
Mirage 2000s and Mirage 4000 have incorrect TWS maximum targets // Gaijin.net // Issues
I’m soon going to be on my THIRD attempt to remove the 2 extra missiles on the Mirage 2000-5F since it should only carry a maximum of 6 missiles.
I don’t know whether or not the supersonic performance of the Rafale is overperforming as I don’t have the sources either way, it very possibly could be, but the report was inherently faulty from the jump.
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I agree, i’m confident whatever happens, the Rafale will continue being fine anyway.
I mean if i understand well that is a given and everyone agree, from pilot to everyone that is why i want that better engine that will come with f5.
And still gaijin should at least do some kind of guess since the eurofighter just has a way better engine.
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It isn’t, in fact the report tries to suggest that the Rafale is incapable of reaching Mach 2, and is limited to Mach 1.72 or so. But we have direct evidence it is capable of achieving Mach 2 at altitude.
Here you go, Mach 2 at 10,300m.
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Maybe im missing something but i dont see you trying to remove the HMD or extra missiles off the french Rafale, which to my understanding the M2K5F have the same justification as the Rafale F3R for its additional missile.
The bug report did not state it could not hit M2.0, it stated with 4 missiles and 100% fuel it could not hit M2.0 at 11000m. Thats a pretty specific data point. He does say its possible the Rafale could reach M2 0 under other conditions tho.
I personally think the bug report was misnamed, the top speed wasnt as relevant or solid a claim as was the SEP at alt imo.
Appreciated on the actual source o7
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The HMD was tested, same for the M2K-5F and Gripen A which had tested them, same goes for extra missiles. French Rafale F3R also tested an Israeli towed decoy even if only in-service Indian Rafales use them. This is far different from M2K5F which was incapable of having 8 missiles, and was never tested with it. It is fantasy in that regard.
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Were the additional M2K5F missiles not from greek configurations?
The 4x Magic 2 configuration were from French and Greek Mirage 2000Cs. The pylons where the Super 530D can be carried was removed and made incapable for air to air missiles with the Mirage 2000-5s. No Mirage 2000-5s had that capability, even Greek ones.
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My understanding from this threads response is that the majority of this thread categorically disagrees with that statement.
Granted they could be disagreeing with the speed limit while agreeing with the SEP, but that does not seem to be the case at all. They seem to genuinly believe the Rafales SEP should be superior to all aircrafts at high speed/alt.
Its not unreasonable to believe both that the Rafale has a VNe of M2.0 and that it does not have the SEP to reach itbin level flight with full fuel and 4x missiles simultaneously, which is why I think the report discussing VNe in the title is a little misleading, as the report is mostly regarding SEP.
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