Cannon damage below 30mm is being done wrong

Also yeah, you are right on the new sever damage system. The threshold needs to be raised significantly, if not outright reverted back to the old system

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Agreed for sim from a holistic pov.

But where do you want to stop? If you go this far for structural damage you have to consider hydraulic damage way more realistic too. You might argue that these “control cable damages” are considering hydraulic damages to a certain degree, but you would have to make certain planes with electric steering of control surfaces way more survivable and all others way less…

I share your view regarding Air RB and instructor, it is way too easy for those mouse aim pilots to keep damaged aircraft in the air. Putting the instructor off in case of hits with delayed effects(simulating hydraulic leak and comple failure) might be a way.

This looks reasonable on first sight - but you can’t stop with cannons then.

As long as you have these totally unrealistic combat ranges for 0.50 cals in wt you would simply nerf the 20mm cannons and make 0.50 cals op. And you would have to get rid of mouse aim and non-hisorical convergence settings to compensate this, etc - an endless circle…

That’s why i always have problems with being more “realistic” for specific issues as it makes no sense to pick just one aspect without looking at the broader picture.

I can’t say I’m right but from my point of view, the opposite is the case.

When Germany developed Mineshells, like with many nations, they looked at their own planes to what they considered to be the weapon of the future.
Instead of light Bi-Plane designs or planes built from wood, they considered monocoque full metal planes to be the future, with good structural integrity and high straight level and dive speeds.

Wood is very brittle and cracks easily while metal structure will deform but stay intact.
A hit with fragmentation rounds will create lots of holes in either strucutre but wood is more likely to be severily damaged from fragmetns cutting through it.

So the Mineshells actually work particullary well against the full metal structure, because the pressure from increased amount of explosive is trapped like a balloon until it bursts, causing catasthropic damage. So in oder to destroy these kinds of planes, Germany developed Mineshells to increase the lethality against them.

Wood would immediatly shatter from the pressure, releasing it without the same amount of pressure built-up.

Of course that doesn’t necessarely mean that wooden structure is less vulnerable to Mineshells.

On my research for HMG caliber bullets I came across an image that supposedly depicts a Yak-9 wings that was hit by a Soviet 12.7mm MDZ explosive-incendiary bullet which carries 1.5g of PETN + 1.2g of Flashpowder.

I find that kind of damge very hard to believe but it could proof the point that wooden airframes are infact very vulnerable to explosive force, since they can’t absorb the blast by deforming and break appart instead.
The Soviet Union deployed 12.7mm explosive and later explosive-incendiary rounds, perhaps for the same reason as Germany did develop Mineshells, that these rounds are quite effective against their own planes, which for them served as the gold standard for fighter planes.

In contrast to US and British 7.7-12.7mm ammunition, which didn’t use explosive rounds but just incendiary, since metal planes would not be as vulnerable to the damage caused by a small blast.

As the war progressed we see a design philospy change in all nations, with a switch from explosive ammunition to incendiary ammunition, or at least replacing pure explosive ammunition with explosive-incendiary ammo.

This is also mention in a German ammunition study from WW2 where they say that “(…) the desire to add additional incendiary effects to fighter ammunition can be observed in our enemies as well”.

Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union all deployed fighter planes at the start of the war that would be more vulnerable to explosive bullets and they all used explosive bullets for their light and heavy machine guns.

This is in contrast to a quote from:

(…) The high explosive incendiary bullet MDZ-3 ignites gasoline in unprotected fuel tanks only. When fired into a duralumin aircraft wing, the MDZ-3 bullet creates an entrance opening with a diameter of approximately 20mm and an exit opening of up to 110mm diameter. (…)

From this quote the damage against duralumin is much lower than what we see against the wooden YaK-9 structure, where the entrace hole is around 4-5cm and the exit hole 30-40cm or more and quite catastrophic.

Going from the 12.7mm to the 20mm ShVAK came with many disadvatages, like lower RoF, increased weight and worse ballistics. However one important advantage is the greater inflicted damage to full metal planes that could be damaged by the larger fragments of the shell, where the destructive power of the 12.7mm comes mostly from the blast.

At the moment the damage mechanics of WT are still super simplified and are tuned more to feel satisfying instad of making any sense.

I guess instead of working on changing gun damage, it’s more important to adjust the damage model of planes and how damage is going to effect their flight performance.

Remember when pilot damage effected flight performance? The pilot is like the most important element of a plane so guns need to be able to have some effect on them, just like armor needs to actually protect them when it should instead of pilot sniping them from 1km through the entire airframe.

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My personal view is very relaxed on the topic. We have some information about how much damage a single shell does. So if planes are similar in survivability that they were irl i am fine.

I am more interested in the amount of shells needed for a kill being correct rather than the portrayal.

So while i support the suggestion, it isn’t a dealbreaker if it doesn’t happen.

You might discuss this with @Loofah - he asked for years to change the fuze sensitivity of mine shells as the settings by gaijin prevented this effect to a high degree as the shells passed through wings and exploded too late…

Same here, but i refused to reply to this after sharing my pov regarding US/UK planes as i assessed this as off-topic in the broader sense.

Same here.

Actually they were failing to explode at all. Eventually the issue got so bad even MG131 stopped working since gaijin increased fuse threshold to 0.25 or 0.3mm.

The problem got “fixed” by increasing the skin relative thickness on planes covered with plywood, so it engages German fuses too.
It still doesn’t make sense for German fuses to being so insensitive, while Japanese bullers with no fuse at all explode on contact with a sheet of wet toilet paper, but such is life.

Right now it seems that real sh*tter is not producing any fragmentation at all. So it’s bugged again right bow.

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Severe damage doesn’t help with killstealing at all.
All it does is incentivise people to chase around burning wrecks for a “finished off” kill.

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It means the person who did severe damage has already taken the majority of the rewards for the kill, and won’t have it reduced to less than half by someone finishing them and giving you just an assist.

Severe damage has literally the same criteria as “kill” from before.
So a burning plane missing tail controls, wingtip and engine is just as NOT severly damaged as it was not killed.
So scoring a useless crit (some tiny orange spot woth 0 impact on performance) is still more important than getting the same aircraft to the state above as long, as the pilot bails or plane crashed before the fire kills it (1st crit is more important than all subsequent damage when attributing the kill, which is ridiculous if we consider, how absolutely inconsequential crits can be)

Gaijin hasn’t fixed anything.
They actually broke the game a lot worse, because now vultures dive after burning wrecks that would have been ignored in the past due to being dead, on top of killstealing burning and flat spinning and dead-engined planes that are not considered severly damaged. Severe damage = missing a wing essentialy.

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Is that right? I thought severe damage was meant to happen well before what would have previously been considered a “killed” aircraft?

It wouldn’t surprise me if you’re right and GJN have implemented it really badly though.

Your own source puts 30mm at 5-10x more likely to kill, and every image you use to try and prove your point is 1 singular shell…

May I ask what you expect to happen when 3-4 20x99mm shells explode in the same area?

You miss the point that a “severe damaged” aircraft was almost 100% a clean kill in the past - so arguing this way makes no sense as you have already lost 20%…

In addition - the fellow players trying to get better overall kpb or actual K/D ratios in oder to get on top of several listings have to invest way more time and ammo to finish their kill off (to get a pilot snipe or to cut tail off as sole kill criteria) - as kills “severe damage counted” are not considered in your service record.

That’s why you see even more guys firing on burning planes without wings than before. Kill “stealers” have now just more opportunities.

Well, I thought so too.
Then it turned out gaijin split kills into:

  • wing missing

and

pilot dead
tail missing
Plane burned out to the point it can’t be repaired.

They have absolutely failed to address the de-facto kills like dead engine at low alt at the middle of the map,missing several control surfaces and being on fire in a flat spin.

I have a video where Pe-8 that is basically all black, has 3 dead engine and is burning for like 2m is not considered dead basically till the game decided it “burned out” 50m above the ground (it dropped from like 3km).
This plane wouldn’t be considered severly damaged since it’s not missing a wing.

Gaijin took the past of least effort.

Just like they did with real sh*tter. Sorry for being off topic.

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Yeah, unfortunately that seems to be their signature.

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They are not counting towards my beloved Wyvern’s KPB (I’ll get it to 4.7 one day anyway!) ? Oh my :D I refuse to shoot at those since it negatively impacts my ammo count and positioning, but god damn, what a way to make the game even worse.

Thing is, all it took was 1 shell to remove a wingtip.
I have removed entire wings and tails with single Type 99 Mk 2 HE shell and it took 2 Shvak shells pretty often. And I’m talking about huge and tough P-47.

In other words - 20mm damage has been way over the top for quite some time. But recently real sh*tter seems to lack any fragmentation yet again, lol.

No, i tested it several times - and a lot of others too. Thought you were aware of this. I mean they would ruin all their beloved statistics if they would count 1 kill twice. As i don’t care about it i am not really affected, but i had a lot of in-game chats - a lot of players are fully aware of this non-considering.

I appreciate your efforts to increase the BR of the Wyvern, but i rather expect that they go back to 4.0 - just count the noobs getting sniped by the buffed aaa defending the 4 mini-bases. As soon you carry A2G loadout you are dead < 3 km distance - the same hit scan as from af aaa…

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I’m counting 3 hits, unless the 4th landed too close to another making it less visible.

Real-shatter has no effect on aura damage, only damage dispersion. It affects fragment penetration, range, damage, quantity, and density, as well as the direction they fly in.
It has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, and a lack of fragmentation would only negatively affect damage output.

I’m telling you again, when gaijin buffed 20mm, wing tip removal became a 1-shell affair. If you hit the same spot once or 4 times - doesn’t matter, it takes some time for the game to apply the damage, watch some replays of 30mm striking in slow motion, you’ll notice it quickly enough. You can strike a wingtip more times than it take to destroy it before it breaks off.

And real shatter became synonymous with how damage for all 20mm sans MG151/20 is applied. But if you refuse to understand, I will just ignore you cause I don’t have the time for nitpicking.

Right now RS is bugged, I’m talking about my general experience of it working correctly. And with non-broken RS 1 shell is often enough to snap a wing or tail. Each fragment is additional damage. No fragments? Less damage. It’s that simple.