Then perhaps you would be well-suited to serve the royal family. Sorry, I cannot meet that standard.
This is why im complaining, No damage to the ACTUAL crew compartment of my tank, on a Vehicle that had a reinforced firewall because they KNEW this was a issue, But NOPE. You get to die to pay to win garbage because they shot you in a air intake.
This is a problem of game models not including internal protection for whatever reason, not APHE. As you can see by one of your crewmembers not dying, it wasn’t overpressure that killed your tank.
Internal overpressure afaik kills all of the crewmembers instantly.
Overpressue is in General an unrealistic mechanic.
Sure it helped make slow reloading HE slingers kill in one shot but like APHE in the game it ignores physics to kill crew from pressure that would never reach them.
APHE is another issue, because the explosive is encased in a much thicker shell, so the explosive force, and therefore the resulting pressure, is decreased, as more energy is spent breaking up the shell.
So overpressure APHE benefits from:
- Pressur sphere that ignores structural layouts
- Overpressure being activated by the same amount of explosive content as explosive shells
The lighter the shell is, the better the blast performance. SAP shells might be able to cause overpressure kills but APHE doesn’t make any sense.
I made a suggestion about it but it was obviously not approved.
So how about some poll:
Should overpressure take the shells filler/weight ratio into account? Meaning that most APHE shells won’t easily cause overpressure compare to explosive shells.
- Yes
- No
0
voters
War Thunders game mechanics literally flips the effectiveness of shells around.
With the rare 88mm APCR shell being worse than more common APCBC shell, which in turn is worse than the old APCBC it replaced.
The issue isn’t APHE. It’s operating tanks with internal destroyed components and the loader thinking he can be the commander and gunner at the same time.
Make APCR great again!
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There are ammunition that after changes have become pointless, such as the 100mm APCR which has less performance than the AP, or the 90mm Italian ammunition that you unlock (mod43?) perforates less than the stock ammunition.
That would be a good thing for the game, and the developers don’t like that. They like money, and if it’s money through player frustration, even better. It seems that makes the money smell better.
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remember when APHE had downsides and didnt straight up invalidate AP’s pen through the finest bullshido?
bet if you invented a imaginary APHE ~with less metal and weight~ for the 17 pdr, run it through gaijins crappy calculator, it’ll give you 30mm more pen than the best AP shell.
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Yeah, I was thinking the same.
Good old times when M72 had actually better pen than M61, like it was in reality.
Really makes me mad how some AP shells are underperforming in penetration.
They should buff AP penetration but then introduce “shell shatter” for AP shells against 20-40° armor, which reduces their penetration by some percentage, if the T/D ratio is too large.
That way APC will stay more effective in penetration flat armor under certain conditions.
They also should stop treating Russian APBC like AP. It’s a flat shell, it shouldn’t pen as much as sharp tipped AP against flat armor.
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Yeah i don’t get why Russian APHE acts like its some magic shell that can teleport for any angle.
The Russians and the Germans have to be the Competitors for most hand held players in this game, with the American’s Coming in at a Solid Third.
But atleast the American’s get nerfs occasinally. All the Russians and Germans get are Buff upon buff upon buff, which just leads to dumber and dumber players, which makes gaijin buff them again and again, leading to a snake eating its own tail situation we have now, where most players in this game are absolute MORONS that have no idea what on earth they are doing.
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The shame of the game is that they have made the penetrations and damage to the players’ liking. Since players want to kill everything easily, we give the APHE extremely exaggerated damage, and to make them pierce well we give them a penetration superior to reality, leaving the Full AP as garbage that you have to discard as soon as you unlock the APHE, and if your tank only has Full AP, well, bad luck and die.
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The game uses penetration-calculators/formulas for a very good reason;
Not every shell has penetration-charts
Even if they do have them, they’re often still not comparable due to exterior factors, such as temperature, air pressure, etc.
For example, Oerlikon 35 mm PLD-044 (APHEI-T) has a muzzle velocity of 1175m/s at +15°C, but a muzzle-velocity of 1180m/s at +21°C, this affects ballistics by ± 0.1-0.2s depending on range and thus also the penetrative capabilites.
[Src.: “Oerlikon 35mm Ammunition for the automatic cannons types KDA, KDB, KDC and KDE”]
Now also consider other factors, such as the penetration only being available for certain ranges, leaving gaps which then in turn require calculation/interpretation anyway.
Same thing goes for the target-plate struck, e.g. 20mm dural is simply not equal or reliably comparable to 20mm RHA and the latter also isnt standardized or universal - You’d need to have the same material composition, density, hardness, tensile- and yield-strengths etc. etc. to properly compare the shells.
All of this should make it quite clear why a penetration-calculator/formula (de marre for AP/APC/APBC/APCBC and the afforementioned w/ explosive filler, i.e. APHE-C/BC/CBC) is used instead.
Naturally, it will not be accurate either, however it is the only way to have a chance of modelling such a high amount of ammunition-types with a equal basis for their penetration calculation.
Same is done for APFSDS (L/O formula w/o frustum; https://www.longrods.ch/perfcalc.php) and HVAP/APCR (also de marre, same page as AP/C/BC/CBC)
This is a game first and foremost, even with the realistic touches (the best definition I have heard so far is “Arcade game with realistic elements”) it will never be 100% accurate, nor should it be.
Gameplay goes first, if you want to play a sim where full attention is paid to realism, even if it compromises the gameplay-experience, then you have other options.
If there is anything that people always talk about in a negative way, then it is WarThunder’s consistency (It’s consistently inconsistent).
Said inconsistency is what drives most players’ frustration, so trying to reduce the consistency of something that currently is consistent (which APHE is for the most part) is counter-productive.
And that is also beside the point that people just dont bother aiming for crew, ammo etc. and then act surprised when aiming for literally nothing does infact result in literally nothing.
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I’m not saying don’t use a calculator, what I’m saying is that the calculator you use is garbage. What you could do is tweak that calculator to give more realistic penetrations.
So you’re telling me we shouldn’t fix something that’s been a mistake since the game started, that creates a huge imbalance, and that there are nations that don’t have that type of bullet, because otherwise many people would cry and get angry? Nothing, what I said a while ago, that all bullets have the damage of APHE and so we can continue with the absolute fantasy, but at least balanced.
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No. No one wants what you are asking. All that turns into is favoratism for specific nations as one calculation is used for certain rounds and another for others.
Nation to nation pen tests weren’t comparable. Differing quality of steel used in the tests combined with differing conditions, ranges, and locations of penetration leave a varried set of tests. Standardizing everything is better and accept that numbers won’t perfectly match historical records.
The bigger problems are external factors to pen and postpen. shell shatter and overpressure are both not realistically used and utterly game breaking in practice.
IRL, more APHE fail to fuse than APDS will shell shatter, but in game you can’t fail to fuse an APHE round (not even bringing up sphere of death vs irl cone). Considering the postpen given to current apcr and apds, shell shatter should have been removed a long time ago.
Overpressure is just a bad mechanic. Some vehicles are modeled with internal compartments, some arent. The ones that are have strong resistance to overpressure, despite the fact many should be weak to HE (for example, BMP-1 has an engine compartment 5mm plate, but centurions and tiger 2s don’t have engine compartment firewalls). It also seeks at an absurd distance. Hitting the lower track or side engine of an open topped tank with a 500g explosive will often overpressure it. Then you have the absurd kills of 122mms failing to pen and still killing tanks because they detonate near turret rings or hatches In game HE doesn’t even produce spalling, it just overpressures, leading to an all-or-nothing internal damage. Every component of HE is unrealistic and leading to a lot of extremely wonky kills that neither make sense nor promote any sort of skill. If i wanted dice rolls every time i fired a HE shell, i’d play WoT.
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i honestly preferred Hullbreak to Overpressure. Especially as some one who always has preferred to play heavier vehicles.
Overpressure is just a low skill way for low skill players to kill heavies and such, because they have no idea how to otherwise.
The increasing ineptitude of the WT player-base is probably why Gaijin has been rushing to add as many artillery pieces as possible in the past year. SO they can cater to the morons who would rather just no skill their way through the game, than learn to play.
HE spammers are the WT equivalent of WOTs Gold spammers, its the same skill-less gameplay.
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So no one wants a better tuned penetration calculator? And no one wants a realistic damage model, making all bullet damage more consistent while removing the APHE kill sphere?
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‘better tuned penetration calculator’ is just fancy terminology for bias. Because your asks would be ‘xyz round should be doing this’ ‘yyz round should be doing this’ . Even if you can cite sources, again, tests aren’t standardized. Like, imagine accepting North Korean sources beacuse they are ‘official’.
‘making all bullet damage more consistent’ is laudable, but laughable. They have been trying for a decade, you aren’t going to do better.
Sphere of death was voted on and people wanted it to remain. Yes, its unrealistic, you aren’t going to budge anyone by asking for it yet again though.
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They do it for the Russians.
The Russian’s APHE gets their Test results, same for their APFSDS and shit.
gaijin actively has buffed multiple russian rounds because people have cited test results for them.
Germany too gets buffs based on test results, But anyone else? HELL NO. you must SUFFER!
The Chieftains L15A3 should be punching through 370mm of armor at Point blank, yet it can’t even pen 300mm of armor point blank.
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So you want… more bias. just bias in your favor? ehhhhh
I assume you are using the national archive sources? The reason those aren’t used is because the russians used the same rounds to test the T64 armor and found significantly differing results. Conflicting sources, hence them using the calculator.
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