And when people are afraid to can a point, because they are easy kills for planes then.
In those cases, you can’t even make the “argument”, of planes having to spot their targets, because at least (but most of the time more than 1) player is in a 20m radius circle. Even randomly dropping a medium/small sized momb is likely to grant you with a kill…
Bbbbbbbut there are ground units in Air too…
Yes, because you are trying to separate two connected issues in context of mechanics and two connected issues in context of balance and argue against my position with each other separately, but it doesn’t work like that:
Air AB / Air RB being the only standalone/not combined arms mode is there because being granted a ground vehicle when you have a plane as starting vehicle wouldn’t be a reward/an upgrade, so people wouldn’t play it and sit in the vehicle.
But combined arms where you can choose ground or air from the start is not going to work properly because picking out just planes would be a winning strategy all the time, and AB SQB was a proof of that, so this is a proof as of right with current balance data air is indeed stronger than the ground, and because of that gaijin will not jump into this kind of approach right away because it would effectively kill the ground usage before the balance would have happened.
Ground having air component is a choice of gaijin to have combined arms and because of that there are SPAAs and because there are spaas, they should be in the arcade as well so players grind them out as well, so they won’t have a friction point of not having SPAAs ready when jumping into RB, so effectively there needs to be a reason to use them in ground AB.
CAS vs Tanks in ground AB is not balanced, and I agree with that, and it can be balanced, but this is a separate topic from the game mode issues mentioned above, meaning this can be handled separately regardless of decisions made for how spawning of aircraft works for the mode, but this doesn’t mean that mechanic of spawning doesn’t have any effect on balance - the current one definitely does.
Again connecting two separate issues together - it can be done that there will be a balance between CAS vs Tanks, getting rid of planes in GF AB IS NOT the only solution. In Titanfall the asymmetry between the pilot and titan is just a perception of player because actually titan is not really stronger than pilot, it’s just like exchanging light tank for a heavy tank as a reward. It’s a perceivable reward because you feel like you’re stronger and it’s cool to be a mech pilot, but titan has its drawbacks as well. It is possible to do the same thing with planes in combined battles.
Haven’t played those in awhile, but it doesn’t matter - you’re again focused on what is there now and not what can be. Imagine having similar air strike like artillery strike/scouting where you just mark a vehicle or position and there’s few CAS planes coming in quickly to attack those marked vehicles or heavy bombers to drop bombs around area. SPAA has just a brief moment to defend against those, similarly to how it is now. But in such situation there’s more room to balance it towards bombing being less effective if player is not piloting the plane on its own. So effectively it could be another attack similar to artillery strike that is not given to be effective, but can force enemy team to move from their fortified positions.
That is beside the point. SPAA being SPAA doesn’t mean it is supposed to be aimed 100% time at air units. In war those multi-gun turret SPAAGs were used against infantry as well, 88mm guns were used against tanks and bunkers as well. Being useful doesn’t mean they should always have planes to shoot at.
This is a similar situation as if you have heavy tanks with thick armour - you need enough penetration to get rid of them and lets say mostly the vehicles that have enough penetration are SPGs that are weakly armoured and open top and can be easily killed with MGs. So you’d want to get rid of heavy tanks because you don’t want to use SPGs and are forced to?
Again - the reason here is that they should be used - if you don’t farm those in AB and go to RB where they may be required, it’s a friction point for you. Any such friction point for moving towards the mode where gaijin wants players to be, probably needs to be handled, and seems like their decision is to put planes into the ground AB and virtually force us to use those SPAAs against planes through seasonal tasks and challenges.
With current CAS vs ground balance and mechanics - obviously yes. What’s your point here? My point about CAS being the counter is that some unique vehicles, would be hard to position between being completely useless and being top dogs of their tier, and having CAS and artillery adds more parameters to balancing. So rather than making their stats non-historical and having community argue about that, or pushing them forward to highest possible BR where they stop being OP but also make no sense, they can stay in BRs they fairly make sense. And I’m not talking about actual premiums and event vehicles that are OP because gaijin wants them to be, but the general tech tree stuff and principles of having CAS, IF it was balanced.
Spawn camping is a separate topic, and there is a valid solution to it, it’s just that CAS or artillery, or covers, or spawn protection, or mine fields ain’t it, but everyone thinks they know a great simple solution LOL.
They would, it’s just a game, and we already got rid of crashing planes into the ground and exploding vehicles. Kamikaze makes sense in naval and not in ground battles btw.
It’s not making a game too realistic, but representing human behaviors with mechanics that make specific balance between units work when mechanically they have their historical statistics. You either have to make fake balance between CAS and ground through inaccurate/non-historical stats so there is a balance, or you need to implement behaviors that did historically make those work correctly.
SPAAs principle wasn’t to shoot down every plane as it was with large amounts of heavy AAA flak guns. SPAAs principle was to deter plane from attacking a convoy, a formation of units, meaning the pilot wouldn’t risk dying by diving into the stream of bullets.
This fear factor isn’t going to work with players not caring about crashing their plane, so there are two choices here: make the spawn system like in RB/naval, so losing a plane is costly, but there will still be people that need to fulfill some tasks with planes, and so we will still have player doing those annoying kamikaze runs. OR make mechanics that force the human behavior on the pilot as pilot being a proxy for this feature like it is with all tanks’ features with their crews being the proxy.
RP isn’t the only reward in the game. Sealclubbers (me included LOL) are playing on lower tiers to complete seasonal tasks and event tasks. It’s not about research points in their fully spaded tree - it’s about the in-game score, either collecting it up to 40K like now, or killing specific amount of specific type of vehicle etc. Make it only count when someone calls for it and it’ll be significantly reduced because you won’t have team full of scouts.
Again - this is a separate topic and there’s endless ways to actually make it fair. Disabling bomb sights would be one thing, the rocket sights are already hard to use, but you can ram into the targets now, so it’s not a problem, or have tiny tims - if you’ll have your own plane as in naval, getting so close will be really risky. In arcade we could have indicator about aircraft coming your way, similarly to how artillery is indicated on-screen. But make it 100% that you get the indicator that aircraft is coming there and not like the bomb whistle that is not always there because of realism.
Survive long enough if they have interceptors on their tail. Right now it’s not really a skill, but RNG, but if it’s made as in naval spawn, there will be higher incentive to survive because most likely that’ll be the only time in the match you’ll be able to take the plane out, and there’ll be fighter planes sitting up in the sky waiting for bombers. It can be done as long as getting killed in a plane is not “free”.
Yeah, that’s right, but what’s your point? That this is the argument that the only solution here is to completely get rid of planes? This is the rubbish here…
Yes there is no public data on the player count of War Thunder’s game modes.
The data is public, you can process it to get the number. The fact that you have to process it to get exact numbers doesn’t mean there is no public data on player count. You can say there are no exact summarised numbers or total player count number available, but you cannot say that there is no public data on it…
Players could grind SPAAs in TO arcade, and they could even play with them. So this is just BS.
Can they be balanced? (they can’t) So how could they be balanced?
The only good solution. Again, if it can be belanced, please tell me how!
No. A plane is always stronger.
Arty strike is RNG even against open tops. Anything over a 50kg bomb is much more effective, and destructive. And most of the time, the smallest bomb is going to be 250kg. it can even kill a Maus.
This whole ideas is just BS.
Exactly what i said. And i wrote this, because you have implied that they would be useless/not usable.
So which one?
But what the hell would prevent me from researching them in AB???
The point is that CAS most of the time does not target a single OP vehicle, or a tank in an OP position, because that is just a single kill.
If players do not use CAS to “counter” those hard to kill tanks, then your “argument” is invalid.
But, just for the sake of this argument, let’s grant you, that they counter those targets.
What prevents them to bomb the rest of the team? Including the fully uptiered, fully stock tanks, that are shit even in a full downtier fully upgraded?
Do you understand now?
All of them could be balanced with porper BR decompression, even the premium/event ones.
Your “balanced by CAS” “argument” is already debunked, so…
Oh, so here we need realism, but there not. Cherrypicking. I hope you understand, that you can not make such a “realistic” change, and then choose to ignore it in other places.
You know, it is the same as in school, where you asked the teacher if you could get the better grade because you just need 0.5 points… You know, the answer is, that if the teacher makes an exception with you, then those, who only need 1 point could complain too… And then at the end, everyone would get the best grade…
So a plane destroying a ship makes sense, if it crashes into it, but not if it crashes into a tank. Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense.
Now you complain about historical accuracy, yet a few lines earlier you said that a plane crashing into a tank makes no sense…
Regardless, the game already has a metric ton of inaccuracies. You know, like crew members tanking a .50 cal into their head and surviving…
Or in fact, at any body parts, because no matter where they get hit, they get the exact same damage from that.
So what? Will they now deter the enemy planes from attacking? When many times CAS can attack from outside SPAA range?!
Yeah, because you can complete tasks with Panzer 2s, and 4Cs. Sure.
Again, please tell me how you can be balance it, so CAS needs skill. Because none of those what you wrote here would do anything.
The point is, that planes require no skill to use, while using tanks does require a LOT.
Let me use an analogy. You play a medival sword/bow fighting game, but sometimes the enemy can spawn in with MG42s, and modern sniper rifles.
Only the trash players would use the OP ones, because they lack the skill to use the conventional weaponst, so they need something that even a monkey could use.
One of the many.
Yeah, sure. Maybe read your own rubbish first :)
The data doesn’t represent 100% of users and is not “public” as you have to data mine to access it.
You can, but you have no incentive to do it if there’s no requirement to have them. Any other light or medium would be better unless there’s a specific requirement to be able to deal with planes. Again, you’re not looking at this from perspective of gaijin where they want to figure out how to encourage as much players as possible to use those vehicles.
I just explained how they can, but yeah, keep disagreeing…
… and being ignorant…
…again and again…
Again - it’s just the current state and I was separating the game mode and mechanics from the balance. The current balance is indeed BS and making artillery the RNG. But I was talking about the mechanics where you choose where the bomber or strike aircraft drop bombs/fire rockets, and wait for it to happen hoping it’d have an effect. Again - this is something that would make more sense in context of balance because we wouldn’t worry about planes behaving completely differently than when you can play them in air modes, so they could be nerfed, but still it would feel like RNG or it would feel useless like artillery. But it could be done if you would want a symmetry against air modes and have aircraft in the game while not being playable by players. It was just a thought exercise to show that it could be done like that if you’d want to have actual symmetry against air mode.
Again, two separate things. One is the presented problem of having to have something to deal with aircraft, another is that doesn’t mean this exact problem should be the only thing this vehicle is supposed to be useful for dealing with.
Prevent you? nothing. But if you don’t need to use them in AB, you’re most likely not going to grind them, unless there are some of them that are good tank killers. And once you’re for some reason deciding to go to RB, now you probably should have them and that’s a friction point. There will be people that will of course deal with it and do what you said, but then there will be a lot more that will not have them, keep complaining about CAS and leave the game or get back to AB, and gaijin most likely doesn’t want that.
Again - it can be done, for example with rewarding CAS points only when they attack scouted/marked targets. This would encourage them not to waste bombs if they’d have to return to airfield to reload for example. If they get killed by sticking all together, but it’s not rewarding the CAS - their fault for not spreading out - they could’ve been killed by artillery strikes or sturmtiger in such situation. Also if there was a warning system + awareness reduction when you’re diving into the stream of bullets + pilot reaction, then if you have multiple tanks that have turret-top guns attacking the planes, we get the same effect as in naval if players want to survive in the plane, as long as the plane is not freebie like in air mission.
Again you cannot separate current situation from what I’m talking about that can done and decide to ignore it.
yeah, right:
Yes, we cherry pick those mechanics that let us be in control of the situation in the gameplay. We cannot assume that we have to implement every realistic behavior, but we can pick them one by one and implement those that are added value for being able to balance things better.
No, it is the same as when you are designing a product and you are choosing what audience you are targeting it for, so you are discarding problems that you cannot deal with when implementing this specific product, while tackling problems that are advantageous to be tackled for marketing this product.
Yes, because hitting a huge object that has a wooden deck that can be put on fire with all your fuel makes sense to kill yourself for and neutralise two thousand of soldiers of the enemy team, while killing yourself by crashing into the ground and missing a 3-5 crew vehicle makes less sense.
I don’t complain about historical accuracy. I explain that because we have balance based just on historical accuracy of vehicle performance stats, there is no proper balance if the human factor of fear and perception under fire is not involved where it really mattered. Read about or watch video about the point of SPAAs in WW2 - they weren’t supposed to take down every plane, they were supposed to scare off the pilots and take down planes from time to time if lucky. That is why if you use flat vehicle performance data and put the planes against SPAA, the planes will always go YOLO and win.
I’m playing mostly WW2 tiers, so that’s one thing, but once this (balance through human behavior) happens for non-radar guided SPAAs, it will probably be able to look at the high tiers having similar problem and then maybe they’ll let SPAAs be more effective there. The missile range is a problem of vehicle types, so as you mentioned before - long range missiles shouldn’t be there in the combined arms mode, I think, unless at this tier there are those S300 long range SPAAs etc.
If you have BR 1.0 event vehicle, you can do the 40K points with 1.0 vehicles and funnily it works for the event. The same works with battle tasks that you can do them if just the first played vehicle/aircraft is rank II and then rank III corresponding to first and second task, so you can have just one low BR rank III vehicle and you can roughly play BR 3.3 in AB to complete season tasks.
Go read again or keep being ignorant. Remove the bomb sights, make it spawn like in naval, don’t let them get kills when you crash into the ground etc. All possible.
Right now that is correct, because you can YOLO and there’s RNG deciding whether you successfully do a bombing run or not because of air mission mechanic being stupid.
It’s not that trash players use it - the players that are optimising their grind - those are called min-maxers and it’s a thing in game design. Sadly the optimal way to grind events is to use bombers in GF AB ;/
Go back to school kiddo, if you don’t want to be constructive in the discussion…
It does represent active users in specific time frame. What sense would it make to get your info on the accounts that are not playing anymore. Also it is public, the fact that you have to mine it doesn’t mean it’s not public.
I can agree with that. tho there is the fun factor.
And yet, there are a bunch of other vehicles, that are practically useless, or tanks with useless mechanics.
And even then, why could you not unlcok them in arcade?!
Also, there are many other tank, that you likely unlock, but will never play.
Because they would not make it balanced.
I have researched myn tanks that i will never play. Just like a lot of other players.
Because it is still unfair. Even if your awareness bullshit is implemented, it will not prevent the CAS player to kill you with ZERO skill used.
Even if the no reward unless scouted thing is implemented, they will just bomb you anyway.
Most players using CAS are braindead, and they will attempt every chance of using CAS at any target, because those are the only times they realistically can get a kill.
And even if a good player is in them, he can either chose from a single scouted hull down tank abusing a position, or bombing the 4 unscouted tanks capping a base…
Read about or watch a video about the point of tanks in WW2 - they werent’t fighting tanks and planes most of the time. they were engaging soft targets.
See? it works both ways buddy.
None of the sealclubbers i’ve ever seen use even vehicles to grind events. They are just sealclubbing.
I know. But most sealclubbers just use the Panzer 4c, Panzer 2 combo at 1.7 rank 1.
I am being realistic.
So let’s see:
Still requires no skill to use. People can bomb in Rb without sights, so what’s the point? I just went into the test map in RB mode with sightless aircraft with bombs, and could kill them fine.
And dedicated bombers also have proper bomb sights, so what about those? Should those be removed too?
Losing a spawn? Wooooow, this makes them less OP!
It is not the crash that kills, but the bombs released right before the impact.
Yeah, sure. Not actually.
It requires no skill to use in any mode, even if it is not played like the yolo you describe.
If not just the trash players would use them, then the average K/D of them would not be only 0.65.
Sure. because insults help a lot :)
It represents generated replays. It does not show exact data.
It’s the Game as a Service kind of thing - they are adding things that people will hype about before they realise that are not that useful in first implementation, to gauge the actual amount of players owning and using those vehicles, and if required, they would then, if they have time, fix those. It’s a bad side of F2P/GaaS games, but it is what it is - pushing out stuff that is not useful just for the memes and collectible factor.
It’s not about whether you could - but whether specific types of players would do it or not. Right now you can omit those and go to the top tier without having any problem, but there is incentive to use them to complete the season tasks and challenges.
Now imagine what happens when you never played any SPAA and have to go through all tiers and unlock all SPAAs to get the top tier that you want to use in RB once you have everything else. You spent all the time playing tank-only and now you are faced with situation where all this time you weren’t using SPAA against planes, or even you weren’t grinding them out, so you’re in the top tier where you don’t know how to play SPAA and all you do is complain about the game being crap because of CAS, because SPAA being impossible to use. It’s a friction point in difficulty curve meaning a fraction of players will put down the game in such situation and go play something else.
It is unfair now - yes. With multiple mechanics added to make the conditions more balanced, it will require skill. First thing to do is to make the plane not a free air mission plane that you can YOLO in, then there’s those added smaller mechanics that will make it more skillful and less about just getting close and dropping bomb, or dropping bomb from high altitude with a crosshair. It all can be done, but the starting point is to penalise player for getting killed in the plane by making the plane not free.
Not braindead, but focused on optimizing their grind, they are min-maxing in a sense, trying to spend least time and grind as fast as possible. Attacking whatever you want makes it that way they choose easiest targets instead of the ones that is hard for ground to tackle. If it is controlled, then maybe even getting an easy kill stolen by bomber or strafing strike aircraft with rockets won’t be that often as now.
Yes, that is if he has markers on all vehicles with their corresponding types. Right now fighter planes don’t have markers and it makes harder for them to distinguish targets already, but with naval system and unlimited time, it’ll get back to being easy with unlimited time, potentially. But still, if points will only be given for scouted/marked targets, they will pick those. It can be done, it’s just a lot of minor things that need to happen…
On 1.0 you need event vehicle, so if you’re talking about those, then I guess there’s also those people that are just making new accounts just to give themselves referral gold. On rank II and III with just one vehicle, they could already be doing events/season.
How do you define those sealclubbers? Are those in new accounts or some lvl 100 people?
Not every plane is easy to dive, drop bombs and go back up to safety. Dedicated bombers most likely.
Note that you’re not seeing heavy bombers that much in RB exactly because you have just one plane run most of the time and fighters taking down heavy bomber is easy. Bombing sight is mostly on heavy bombers that are not that agile to run away. Of course people do play them like Pe-8, but I think that’s mostly CCs showing off some unique matches and it’s not that easy to survive when enemy is not already losing.
Exactly - don’t score the kill if the plane crashes to a player that does that. It will reduce amount of players doing this - they will have to survive for the kill to be counted to be able to complete the task with a plane, seasonal challenge or get points.
In RB, in low tiers it’s easy because people don’t know how to effectively use SPAA, because it is hard to do it without lead indicator. Try playing it in naval RB or even in naval AB with the indicator against the big ships and survive while killing multiple big ships. If you’re dropping bombs from high altitude, you’ll miss most of the time, if you get close, you’ll get damaged.
I’m not sure with whom you play mostly, but from my perspective when playing rank 3 - rank 4, mostly the top of the score list players are using the bombers and are doing this effectively. If you think about it - you need 3 kills to get the heavy bomber, so just by doing so it means you already have 1.0 KD in this match before they even use the bombs. And in my matches it’s usually the same 2-3 guys in a match using the bombing runs (like me) so I guess they shouldn’t be 1.0 KD players just being lucky? Unless you’re talking about situation where some guys just luckily have the bombers in one match and they are crap in multiple other matches? That seems like really specific deep dive into all people that you have played with…
Same with disregarding my arguments as BS and rubbish because you know better but have no specific arguments against them…
I don’t even know what(or why?) are you arguing about here? For the right to say that there is no public data? Just so you can say it? Replays are generated for all matches, at least that how it looks like.
Even if the system fails and doesn’t generate a replay from time to time, it still should be representative to data mine for active players in a specific time frame if you were to go there and write the names of each player in your local spreadsheet/database.
Neither can I. I am left with two options:
A: doesn’t want to admit that the mode is played less frequently.
B: Just doesn’t comprehend what info is available.
In either case, there is no point to continue a discussion.
Saying that Arcade is the most played game mode because you can datamine replay numbers doesn’t state anything.
Realistic Battles is the main stay game mode of War Thunder. It’s what people play, it’s what the game is balanced around, it’s what makes Gaijin money. Arcade Battles is a sideshow that should be given purpose. That purpose can be to offer a tank only gameplay experience in War Thunder.
I would love for Gaijin to release public data so we as a community can form opinions off of it. The word of a community manager is not raw data, it’s their word.
Their word is irrelevant unless raw data is shown.
Then your word is also irrelevant unless raw data is shown. Until then…
This sentence doesn’t even make sense - The point is, tank arcade has comparable amount of sessions and players to tank realistic and that’s it, to stop treating it like a lesser mode where players just briefly spend time to learn the game and move on.
It’s not like that for everyone, people just chose what they like and both modes have their fans, but hence RB is presented as mainstream through content creators, the RB community is more vocal, then RB players community is forcing this narrative that the amount of AB players is negligible in the game, which is not and can be proven by the data that can and was already data mined to prove so.
Where is this written? Where is a statement in the game or on the website stating this?
every mode that is played is what people play LOL. Even the enduring confrontation and simulator battles.
Not true - arcade has it’s own BR balance.
Again - each mode that has players spending money does. Even IF arcade was to be just a tutorial that players enter through and spend fixed amount of time before actually be presented with in-game microtransactions, still being essential part of the game would mean it’s a part of money making scheme. You have no idea on how GaaS games work and spouting your opinions as solid facts LOL#2
It has a purpose - for players that don’t want a game that is about surprises and squinting their eyes to see someone in the bushes, but want to know where the enemy is because the crew is a proxy for enemy detection. Or the ones that don’t want to spend 3 minutes driving to the front and sitting to get shot by something that’s barely visible to them and have to do that again for another 3 minutes because realistic vehicles are simply slow and boring to them.
LOL#3
Dude, even if they released raw data - would you actually believe the raw data? How do you verify whether it’s raw and unmodified? You don’t have any means to verify whether that is real or not.
YOU are irrelevant for this discussion unless you prove so, LOL#4
Arcade Battle should be changed to pure tank battles，There were no planes, no helicopters, only tanks fighting each other。
Yes, it is the OP in the first and third post. The first and third.
If you have issue with the comment MotorolaCRO had issue with just backtrack to find what set him off. The rest is just us going back and forth after him triggered by my general comments. So respectfully exactly what I had been saying.
It is in hist first comment/third post in general, but not in the opening post. Fair point though.
This is why I’m not really for changing AB or any other mode for that matter. I bet many people wouldn’t want their mode to go change from the ground up, which is perfectly understandable.
This thread was made by a guy that thinks AB is useless and not played, which are his only reasons to change the dynamics of ABs.
I think TO can be better implemented without “stitching” it in any currently available mode.
This is really easy to fix by introducing “roles” where, I don’t know, only 2-3 people would be able to spawn aircraft first, while others are forced to spawn in a ground unit.
This is why no one is really pushing to make Air modes to be combined arms.
Making TO would be really simple, you already have the maps and vehicles, just ban aircraft from spawning in and job’s done.
Why do you think that would be the case ?
VFW looks like a fairly difficult vehicle to play, it’s pretty big with decent-ish mobility but with godawful gun depression. It’s also open top, so getting slapped with HE round wouldn’t be cool.
Maus can also easily get taken out by ground vehicles at it’s BR, considering 7.7 is filled with HEAT slingers and those things have zero issues dealing with it even from the front.
Also, the recently added M109s will be able to overpressure Maus by hitting it’s turret cheeks with their 155mm HE shell. Yeah, 6.0 / 6.3 TD can OHK a Maus, super heavy tank more than a full BR above them, so I highly doubt Maus would get even close to being OP without aircraft.
