So with Gaijin continuing to say that for the AMRAAM (Aim-120) to be added, there needs to be a counter, but what more do they want to counter it?? Assuming that we will get the A or B variant of the AMRAAM, the current R-27ER is a perfect counter, with its extreme speed combined with the airframe its being used on already being powerful. In my opinion the US and other NATO air trees are already falling behind USSR tree. The US/NATO Trees have an early 2000’s airframe with late 1900’s missiles while the USSR is getting both within the 2000’s?!?! I don’t see what else Gaijin wants to see as a counter before they give the community one of, if not the singular, most requested missile ingame.
All of this counts on the fact that we will get the A or B variant though… if we get a later version of the AMRAAM I understand, but I am just annoyed with the fact that it seems as though the USSR is getting all of the flashy new things when it comes to air battles.
And yes, before you say it, I am well aware that I have a biased view as I play mostly US.
Umm, R-73 is not 2000s missile R-27ER/ET isn’t as well
AMRAAM A/B are beat kinematically by the R27ER/T, so it both outranges and dramatically outspeeds it
R77 is in direct competition with AMRAAM early C variants, 77-1 outcompetes the C-5 I believe.
That covers most nations in the game already.
Then there’s Mica for the french, a little less range than the AMRAAM I believe but it also has a cracked IR variant
China has a PL-11 that is also very similar to early AMRAAM
AIM-54 dramatically dunks on everything but the newest BVRAAMs in terms of range, scoring a kill against a target drone from 110nm (203km) away, but it lacks agility.
That’s about it for the early BVRAAM variants, It will probably be much more balanced than the current state of the game.
At this point if aim120a/b come at all they’re gonna have to be on lower br’d aircraft compared to whats coming. Idk how that’s going to work tbh.
They have said that Fox-3 missiles will come for several nations if not all, so based on this, russia’s R-77 wins against the Aim-120A so there’s a posibility they just skip ahead for the 120C, we can only wait and see
They really should just skip to the C, as the date of introduction between the A, R-77 and C is 3 years each, so the C is basically the direct competitor (with the A/B being the R-27ER’s competitor), and they can add the AIM-120 for some lower BR planes
Depend on the C version, the AIM-120C3/4 is just an AIM-120A/B but with clipped wings to be able to be transported in the F22 missile bay.
So Aim-120A/B/C3/C4 are inferior to the R77.
And the AIm-120C5 and further modification (C7/D) are superior to the R77.
The russian counter is the R77-1 that’s better than the C5 but worse than the C7
For France, the MICA is equivalent to the R77.
Better than early AIM-120 but worse than AIM-120C5/C7/D.
For China the PL-12 is equivalent to the AIM-120C5 (only a bit worse)
For Israel the derby is a bit worse than the R77 but still better than early Amraam.
So if you add early amraam, France and China won’t have anything until the AIM-120C5/ R77.
And playing with Sarh missile (PL-11 and 530D) against even early Amraam is not really fair for those countries.
Neither is fighting R27ER/ET + R73 with AIM7F/M + 9L(/M), 6 x PL8/PYTHON3 or god forbid SuperTRASH…
Aim-120A/B is the counter to R-27ER. So nothing is needed to be added yet. When Aim-120C+ is added, then R-77 could be added. but NATO BVR missiles will always be superior past those early few. They have no counter for Meteor for example
Aim-54 doesn’t lacks agility, its load factor was intentionally nerfed. Aim-54 is capable of 25G dual plane, which is only possible on certain missile that has advanced autopilots to control its roll, but Gaijin models everything as single plane (hence 17G, sqrt(25^2/2)~=17.67), so Am-54 is only pulling about 2/3 of what it supposed to.
My main point was for the countries that don’t use amraam sutch as France or China
If you introduce the Amraam then those countries will have to face it in match.
The Aim-7F is already better than the 530D and the PL-11 so when you’ll have to face Aim-120 with 530D , it’s a bit unfair.
It’s just that you need to think about ALL countries and if you add a new missile it migth become OP vs a plane that doesn’t use it or the best SARH missile (R27ER).
Aim-120A/B is balanced vs the R27ER
But is it balanced versus the 530D /PL-11?
But tbf, there is a big tech gap between the lastest sarh missile those countries uses and their first ARH missile so will see how they implement it in game.
Yes but those are a step above the early Aim-120
They are more comparable to Aim-120C5
Total Symmetry isnt always possible. J8-F thats easy. its a fairly weak platform that would be carried by the PL-12. Im not sure there is an issue there. MICA. Maybe a problem, but I dont really know much about them to be able to comment on their balance. Maybe a earlier version is possible?
But without those options, yeah it could be an issue. But minor nation balance is rarely a problem Gaijin worries about. (looks and britain, sweden and france currently)
The part that always confuses me when this subject comes up. Everything I hear about early 120s and other missiles like it, is how they are basically on par right now with the 27ER. If that’s the case, I’m not understanding why they can’t be added? The MiG-29 is a great platform. Handles well, great speed and good loadout. The 27er(Now ET coming) rocks most in the BVR. I constantly see 14s lose to 29s. The 120 being on par with the ER except that it can guide itself so what? The breaking point here is that the jet that fires the 120 can turn and run? Even if that’s the case, no one does that… I play almost exclusively top tier and all I see is people spam their missiles and then all hug each other in the center.
To be completely honest, I see no real reason not to add the 120 to all the people who had them(And the missile for the other respective countries) Bring them on! XD
Prior to the upcoming rwr rework, any proper fox 3 would have broken the game.
The reason a SARH missile (despite its advantages) its not on par with the 120 is because a 120 can be fired and then the plane that launched it can immediately go cold.
R-77 is considerably worse than the AIM-120A, those lattice fins make it a brick in the wind in anything other than a high altitude/high speed shot.
quite the contrary. The R-77’s lattice fins, while indeed causing more drag, are a double edged sword. On one hand, it gives it worse range and energy retention than the contemporary AMRAAMs. On the other hand, the amount of air deflected by the lattice fins gives it insane turning capability. While its hard to find coherent sources on the normal R-77, its “downgraded” export variant (RVV-AE) was tested to have up to 150 degrees per second of turning in optimal conditions, averaging at 120 usually, which is very impressive manouverbility for a missile of its size and range class.
You also need to keep in mind that the R-77 was a 90s missile, and active seeker tech was quite advanced by then. Coupled with the great manouverbility, the R-77’s closest american analogue would be a mid-life variant of the AIM-120C, arguably the C-5 or C-7.
When ARH missiles come, the R-27EA would be a far more balanced equivelant to the AIM-120A/B than the R-77.
R-77 and AIM-120 were both introduced in the early 90s, and while ARH technology was much more sophisitcated than during the AIM-54s era, the Russians still lagged behind.
More to the point the R-77 will have incredible maneuvering qualities, at the price of both range and seeker capability. Keeping in mind that the advantages of lattice fins only apply at over Mach 2. The major reason lattice fins were chosen by the Russians was due to limited space for actuators in the R-77.
AIM-120A can reasonably expect to have a maximum kinetic range near 80km, with reliable hit chance at 50km or below. This gives players more than enough range to work with in War Thunder, I have seen sources that claim the R-77 to be viable only under 50km, which should make it fairly balanced.
The introduction that worry me are the IR MICAs.