This is more a response to you both because hi-ho I can’t do a multi-reply
This is the first time I’ve heard of such a thing from anyone so pardon me for not believing it outright from internet strangers.
Kinematically it also doesn’t entirely make sense as to how it could both carry the additional fuel weight at a farther distance compared to for example, a 120D while claiming higher speeds in transit (IE getting more for less by a good margain), however, I don’t work in a military industrial complex
It’s a much larger missile, which means it can burn a larger ‘first stage’(not really how it works but close enough) to get up to speed and up high, coast to the ‘engagement range’ and then kick in its ‘second stage’ for maneuvering energy.
first, PL-15 is a 203mm x ~4m missile, much larger than AIM-120, allows more propellant/weight ratio
dual pulse won’t provide more fuel, that’s true, but it allows more impact speed, like this
What? Derby and darter are the same missile, and are superior the aim-120 by a decent margin and PL-12 by a slight margin in close range shots. In no way do they “suck” as long as you aren’t expecting to use them as a 50km bvraam
Yes? Though they’re NOT in the same league as the PL-12.
They’re a short/medium range missile with slightly more maneuverability, worse range and awful chaff resistance. They arguably share one of the weaknesses of the 120s, while having none of its advantages.
The Derby pulls far harder than the Aim-120 and a slight bit more than the PL-12, which you claimed was not the case in your first post.
The chaff resistance on all ARH missiles other than the MICA is identical.
The range isn’t an issue for kill shots but hurts when trying to pressure.
Which weakness do they share? Does the amraam have any more advantages other than the one?
While a graph like that is handy, the issue I had is yes, the missile is about an inch wider and a little over a foot and a half longer- the missile is also claimed to be nearly 30-40 pounds lighter, which means the missile either has;
A) Much smaller electronic components, which is unlikely given the range it’s designed for.
B) much lighter missile frame material which is also unlikely without some unique, special blend of alloys that every other major power so far hasn’t used.
C) A more powerful fuel mixture per unit mass, which is plausible if the fuel is known to be carcinogenic which is why other nations have banned it’s use.
D) The lofting trajectory is much higher than other medium-body missiles, which would make the missile vulnerable during mid-course when outside of an atmosphere thick enough to make corrections via aero-foils.
Outside of that, the missile claims to go up to Mach 5 which is 1 Mach faster than the publicly listed range for the AIM-120 models for example, which would be their closest competition for solid rocket, upper/exo atmospheric pathing. it also doesn’t account for the claimed 10-70nm advantage in ideal conditions unless one party is lying about the capacity of their missiles, or the numbers to achieve the figures.
I’m not arguing the impact speed half of it, only that back of the hand math suggests something is being left out.
It’s brute force in the sense that it’s using a larger missile to achieve higher and farther speeds. Dual pulse probably is going to win over ramjets though outside of some special niches that I forsee just due to travel speeds mostly.
it’s not always the smaller the better. At the beginning, 203mm size was chosen for backward technology, but it do gives advantage in future upgrade. AIM-120D has already reached its extreme, still hard to catch up
from some analysis I saw, ramjets have very special characters in ballistics, makes it not so easy to use, CN and US researched this too but both give up.
most improvement in missiles are improved electronics, make the electronic cabin smaller so the engine can be longer. Like MICA NG to MICA, DERBY ER to DERBY.
the new PL-12AE also used new technology as PL-15, makes it reaching 145km, but still worse than PL-15E due to bigger fins and possibly no dual pulse.
Did not say smaller was better, just that it was brute-forcing the problem because ultimately there is no more room to improve the missiles as of now.
Hence why I said, niche uses. They have better flight envelopes when in thicker atmosphere due to being powered the entire time from my understanding compared to single/dual stage or single/dual pulse motors, however, their transit time for high-altitude firing is still quite a bit less than previously mentioned motor styles.
30km shots are a though proposition for ANY top tier missile. Aim120 can do them better sure but its still not good at it, at those ranges a missile can be defeated by just not flying straight at the missile
I severy doubt this, meteor is a missile that exists already and if is the best missile in its class even when disregarding its longer range its capable of loitering and changing targets. Meteor isnt the fastest sure but irl its not particularly relevant.
Dual pulse is of course extremely relevant but for medium range missiles ramjets are the way to go imo. They simply allow longer ranges for now.
@Monika_in_action could you pass these to the devs as well? CBR managers should not be the one to turn these interviews with designers down as invalid sources when they probably don’t have any better documentation and so no base to reject these.
At least Ordnance Industry Science & Technology is a respectable magazine in the field, and would be better that using whatever values randomly made-up.
Ramjets are not the way to go. Otherwise AIM-260 would have used it. It’s got a couple of issues: 1. expensive, 2. Less versatile in closer ranges, 3. performance varies with alt, 4.Also too big to fit in stealth fighters.
It also doesn’t outperform R37 in longer ranges as neither will have good chance to kill as at that range it is pretty consistent in dodging, and the main use of R37 as said was to force jets off designated missions and into defensive manoeuvres.
these missiles arent meant for close range lol why would you use a meteor when iris t is a choice, permance varying with altitude is not a big problem as it applies to conventional rocket motors too although not to the same degree. its not to big to fit in stealth fighters at all either it will be integrated in f35 soon its just a matter of time and size isnt the main reason why it hasnt been integrated yet.
no shit it doesnt outperform a r37 in range, its a much bigger missile, and the r37m isnt meant to take out fighters the meteor is, the r37 is very fast but its not very maneuverable and if fired from max range which is what russians did ukranians got plenty of time to defend or retreat, which is what they did as r37m mostly got mission kills.
meteor is a whole other kind of missile, it pulls as much as it would ever need to and bleeding its speed is a nonstarter.
and one thing you forgot to mention about meteor, is that its as close to a stealth missile as we ever got
like comparing a missile meant to take out awacs and tankers to a missile meant to take out fighter is a pretty dumb thing to do. the r37m is talked about so much because its legit the only option russian fighters have to engage ukranian aircraft, anything else is too dangerous.
and one last thing, aim260 is a project that is absolutely needed by the us, it not using ramjets which is a very new thing as far as using it in a a2a missile is not a surprise, they need the aim260 fast. the last time the us dabbled with ramjets in weapon was the 60s.
