I’m pretty sure an AI gave you that answer. That’s because M829A3 is, for the most part, an M829A2 with a 100mm tip and fired at a lower velocity.
So yes, penetrator length is essentially the same between the two, which is also why M829A2 and A3 have the same pen in-game. Here’s one of the ATK patent, the one with the schematic cannot be found online afaik other than rare personal scans and the isolated extract on wiki.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/8985026
Yep.
Those are far more know, since US is quite secretive about DU penetrators, but they offer Tungusten rounds for export having claims to have similiar effective pen and indeed , it is estimated on those patent picks and export rounds of how long DU rod would be.
If I remember right, A1 had about 680 DU rod, and also that is one what speculations of A3 is coming on,
Think this thread has run its course
I didn’t understand anything you said, and your sources don’t prove anything in this discussion because they don’t even mention the M829A3, M829A2, or the M829 series at all, not even indirectly. I don’t see any value in your sources.
@SFmerc @Dead_Undertaker I’ve dug again into some docs. Correction on my part.
KE-W A3 was indeed made(Late 2000s) and is indeed a slight improvement over KE-W A2(Itself a tungsten copy of M829A2). It had a very short lifespan and was by 2012-2013 replaced on the market by KET, which is the one I was thinking about. An export Tungsten copy of M829A3.
This is what the patent reference:
You need to pay attention to details. The patent is directly from ATK and posted in 2012 when KET was presented to the public.
By the way, while I’m here and at it.
The sacrificial tip needs to be at least 15% of the penetrator to work properly on heavy ERA/double layer ERA.
This can also be found in a 2000 US DoD patent regarding their tests against heavy ERA/double layer ERA. A 630 mm penetrator with a 100 m tip is exactly 15.87%. The longer the penetrator is, the longer the sacrificial tip also has to be which isn’t exactly optimal size wise.
This one was posted in 2000 and present solution to defeat what is essentialy Relikt principle. This was thus integrated into M829A3 since the US already knew Russia was working on novel double layer ERA before Relikt was publicly revealed.
The main problem is that the tip is not taken into account when calculating penetration in the Longrods calculator. Yet the tip plays a crucial role in armor penetration. So it should either be treated as part of the penetrator itself, or, if it’s excluded from the calculation, some percentage should be added to the penetrator’s penetration to account for its effect. However, neither the game nor the Longrods website takes this into consideration.
But this doesn’t mean I agree with the sources you provided. I don’t have time right now to verify their authenticity, check what exactly is written there, or understand how it relates to the argument.
Not so much, that steel tip does very little to nearly nothing to penetrating modern armor.
Idea is that steel tip is gone before that DU rod hits armor.
But in game it should be modelled to destroy era and after that DU rod pen should come in calculation.
But I believe it would be nearly impossible to modify in game as completely working.
Got plenty of games where ERA still eats rounds from abrams.
Just ask AI, it might give you some more evidence from SteelBeasts.
M829A3 does not use a sacrificial tip, its a ~820x25mm DU longrod. The steel tip idea comes from a patent that explicitely states that the munition is non-DU and therefore cannot be M829A3. Infact it is impossible for there to be a steel tip given the stated weight of the penetrator + sabot assembly (10kg as stated by Northorp Grumman) . The sabots from M829A1 to A2 to A3 were stated to have achieved a 35% and then 30% weight reduction from 4.4kg on M829A1 leaving ~7.5kg for the penetrator after accounting for the windshield and fin assembly. This corresponds to a ~820mm long 25mm diameter DU rod. If there were a steel tip, it would have to be so long that it would exceed the amunition compartment dimensions.
Iirc gaijin use 260hb hardness target
The steel tip conclusion comes from KET having a steel tip and that KET was said to be a tungsten copy of M829A3 since DU can’t be exported.
Furthermore, research was done in 2000 when M829A3 was undergoing experimentation. It concluded that a 15% total length sacrificial tip was needed to properly defeat heavy ERA, which is exactly the ratio we know from KET.
I don’t have a horse in this race but most data I’ve seen point to M829A3 having a breakaway tip.
That is a good statement its factual, plus players also have to remember that steel type and quality plus composite materials and their quality matter when it comes to withstanding sabot round hits.
Yeah my point was more along the lines that its impossible for the tip to be steel as it would exceed the maximum length allowed by the ammo compartment in the abrams turret bustle. It may have a sacrificial tip, bit it cannot be steel. Infact i have found patents that mention the use of a DU rod with a tungsten sacrificial tip but patents cannot be used as proof.
Good luck with that bug report. If you even manage to get it through a bug reporter, I can’t see it getting changed. Gaijin will always know best, according to Gaijin.(See SEP v3 hull)
237 is the default for the program being used.
It has a breakaway tip as the difference between A3 and A4 is that A4 has a datalink that can tell the tip when to separate from the penetrator before impact. Having it separate before impact generally allows for the penetrator to be less deformed by ERA or for APS systems to fire on the now disconnected tip instead of the actual penetrator rod.
The gane doesnt use the default setting it uses a higher hardness target at 260BH, for example this is the parameters that gaijin used for the ofl f1 and f2
I know what the game uses. I’m just telling you that the website that’s being used above, uses a default hardness of 237 for the target.
Also A4’s DUrod is designed on multi segmented DU rod.