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TANKS - HOW ARE GAIJIN GOING TO MAKE IT WORK?


 

Quick question.

 

How are Gaijin going to balance tanks for all the factions involved in WT?

 

Let me go into that comment with a bit more info, the current system will see early T54’s fighting German Tiger II’s which while squiffy I understand as the game goes from pre WW2 to Korea (1953)

 

Now there has been some debate about this, but as development of the T54 started as far back as 1945 it has every right to be implemented. This leads to another matter, the T54 is superior to the Tiger 2 in almost every aspect, Mobility, Armour and Firepower and as I loathe altering real stats to make up balanced ones (WOT) I presume/hope Gaijin will balance it based on RP/maintenance costs?

 

Then we get to the next issue, while the US, Brits and the USSR can duke it out on fair terms, it’s going to leave other nations in a heap of trouble, the Japanese for example have nothing even remotely comparable (please do not quote any WOT nonsense here please) and even their indigenous post war tanks such as the STB’s were not implemented until the mid-60’s and the Leopards for Germany are also out of the time line.

 

It gets worse for those that want a separate Italian tree; the issue remains, you have 1 good candidate and a whole lot of nuts and bolts junk that cannot compete at any level, even if you massively alter the tiers it’s still not competitive.

 

So how are Gaijin going to make this work? The Japanese Italians and Germans could use the US vehicle’s they were given, but that leaves most of the high tier list with M48’s

 

So what are they planning, by altering the tiering they will throw any historical relevance out of the window, and that’s a slippery slope, by adding paper designs the slope becomes even more greasy. Altering weapon penetration, accuracy, turret rotation and such ends up with history and reality being overlooked and if a lie is told enough it becomes the truth.

 

So how are Gaijin going to balance it so that all factions/nations can have a fun game? (I am at his point talking about RB more than AB as that’s just for fun and derping)

 

Any ideas?

 

Ed

 

Let shave a look at what the Tier IV-V might look like – for comparison (based on vehicles that fought in 1945 or later) pinch of salt required here but you get the jist

 

tigerii008cw_19a.jpg

Tiger 2, unable to pen the front of T54 at range, but still an ok tank

(8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 - PzGr. 39/43 APCBC) @ 100M = 202mm pen

 

t543_007.jpg

But dont worry the D10 (BR-412 APHE) 100m has 160 pen at 500 meters and wont hurt the tiger II on the glacis/mantle

A41%20-%20Centurion%20Mk.13%20(a).jpg

The Centurion 5/2 to mk 13 - L7105mm - able to pen up to 300mm, but can be knocked out by the above two

vietnam2.jpg

Not as good as the T54 or Centurion, and only the M68 gun (L7) is worthwhile -

 

usmt-USMCShermanJapType94.jpg

But then we have Japan - and yes they were useing trash like this to the end ( ok ok so they were developing a few mediums, but still nothing great)

pz-destr-carro-armato-m13-40_imagesia-co

And Italy ...
 

 

 

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Its likely that not every country will have top tier tanks.

 

 

That would be absurdly stupid. The goal for a majority of the players is to reach the end of a line of vehicles. If there are no top tier tanks for certain nations, it ruins the whole purpose. And don't come with this "Well I only want the tanks I'm interested in" because I don't care. For me, and a lot of other WT players the sole purpose of playing this game is to reach the end of a nation's tech tree. You can't just cut off a nation from the top tiers.

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Just so you know, Pattons packed a helluva lot more HVAP than Shermans and Hellcats back in WWII. And I'm thinking of ending the Japanese line at era 4 if Japan didn't create a better medium than the Chi-Ri.

Edited by Nope
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D-10T firing BR-412B and BR-412D have similar performance compared to 8,8cm Pzgr 39.

Whilst quality issues will most likely not be an issue in the game, the 100mm BS-3 firing BR-412 could cause significant damage to the weld seems where the lower and upper glacis meet.

 

British are gonna get 20pdr Centurions... no L7 105mm guns here, they were introduced in 1959.

 

M48 Patton is going to get 90mm M41, whilst not the most powerful gun, it will have an varied choice of ammunition, from AP, HVAP and HEAT (with the latter two being the most common and most effective)

Edited by RoflSeal
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Poor countries like italy are hoign to stuggle to get mid ot low tiers never mind top tiers ... they got some lovley planes hidden away, but as for armour.. shudders, and Japan.. its going to be wackamole with the big guns of the Allies ..

 

similar issues are going to crop up with naval units

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D-10T firing BR-412B and BR-412D have similar performance compared to 8,8cm Pzgr 39.

Whilst quality issues will most likely not be an issue in the game, the 100mm BS-3 firing BR-412 could cause significant damage to the weld seems where the lower and upper glacis meet.

 

British are gonna get 20pdr Centurions... no L7 105mm guns here, they were introduced in 1959.

 

M48 Patton is going to get 90mm M41, whilst not the most powerful gun, it will have an varied choice of ammunition, from AP, HVAP and HEAT (with the latter two being the most common and most effective)

Fair point although the QF20pdr can pen up to 300Hom armour with APDS rounds, i would guess that was under practice cond, still it should suffice, and as we dont have silly hitpoints the system works.

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Poor countries like italy are hoign to stuggle to get mid ot low tiers never mind top tiers ... they got some lovley planes hidden away, but as for armour.. shudders, and Japan.. its going to be wackamole with the big guns of the Allies ..

 

similar issues are going to crop up with naval units

 

about Italy i am not too worried really. the Italians used HESH from 1942 onwards in relative large amounts, (on all their 47 mm, 75 mm guns and developed the round for their 90 mm cannon for their heavy prototype tank as well, the round was used on the Semovente 90/53 though).

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about Italy i am not too worried really. the Italians used HESH from 1942 onwards in relative large amounts, (on all their 47 mm, 75 mm guns and developed the round for their 90 mm cannon for their heavy prototype tank as well, the round was used on the Semovente 90/53 though).

HESH became ineffective when spall liners were used. (In 1942 I don't think many tanks had them though)


@OP maybe they can limit the opponents that the axis faces? Ex: Like the worst JPN would face was M4s and Germany's most dangerous opponents would be M26s and the earliest centurions.
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I don't think spall liners were in major use then anyway, even modern Kevlar spall liners won't stop the big fragments, after all a Challenger 2 was destroyed in a blue-on-blue incident by another one firing a HESH round at it in Iraq 2003.

Edited by RoflSeal
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That would be absurdly stupid. The goal for a majority of the players is to reach the end of a line of vehicles. If there are no top tier tanks for certain nations, it ruins the whole purpose. And don't come with this "Well I only want the tanks I'm interested in" because I don't care. For me, and a lot of other WT players the sole purpose of playing this game is to reach the end of a nation's tech tree. You can't just cut off a nation from the top tiers.

Only "high tier" tank designs that Japan had were along these lines: http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=528

 

120 tons, kind of like lighter version of Maus (with worse armor). Type of thing that would have been completely useless for any situation demanding mobility, basically moving pillbox. And that is if it would actually work... That much weight puts a lot of stress to transmission and such. Maintenance would have been a nightmare as well, even with 11(!) crew members.

 

Late medium tanks would have been able to put up a fight against shermans and that`s about it.

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about Italy i am not too worried really. the Italians used HESH from 1942 onwards in relative large amounts, (on all their 47 mm, 75 mm guns and developed the round for their 90 mm cannon for their heavy prototype tank as well, the round was used on the Semovente 90/53 though).

True they had EPS and EP rounds which are Heat and Hesh, however both work better on bigger guns as 47mm Heat and Hesh is not overtly effective, but probally good enough for cruisers etc, while the 75 and 90mm will be dangerous, just about every round fired back will be fatal to the Italian tanks. still it might work

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HESH became ineffective when spall liners were used. (In 1942 I don't think many tanks had them though)


@OP maybe they can limit the opponents that the axis faces? Ex: Like the worst JPN would face was M4s and Germany's most dangerous opponents would be M26s and the earliest centurions.

That become problematic when mixed with planes, as fitting an a tankette to a line up of Shindens is not (one hopes) going to drop you into a tier 2 game, and be hopeless in a tier IV game (on the ground at least)

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Only "high tier" tank designs that Japan had were along these lines: http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=528

 

120 tons, kind of like lighter version of Maus (with worse armor). Type of thing that would have been completely useless for any situation demanding mobility, basically moving pillbox. And that is if it would actually work... That much weight puts a lot of stress to transmission and such. Maintenance would have been a nightmare as well, even with 11(!) crew members.

 

Late medium tanks would have been able to put up a fight against shermans and that`s about it.

A lot of controversy around that one, as no phtos exist (apart from a fake/dubious russian one) and if the real one was shipped to Manchuria it never arrived, by adding tanks like this we slip towards the WOT system, whle im all for protypes that work in order to balance,i would question the use of this... also do you fancy grinding to that in a weak med and pack of tankettes? 

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That would be absurdly stupid. The goal for a majority of the players is to reach the end of a line of vehicles. If there are no top tier tanks for certain nations, it ruins the whole purpose. And don't come with this "Well I only want the tanks I'm interested in" because I don't care. For me, and a lot of other WT players the sole purpose of playing this game is to reach the end of a nation's tech tree. You can't just cut off a nation from the top tiers.

and it's comment like that that f*ck up the game 

 

NO Germany doesn't need top tier in tank an planes

WHY ????

ho i don't know maybe because they lost the war in 1945 thus for had produce nothing to face a 1950's tank

 

putting the Tiger 2 against a t54 is as stupid as putting the kv-2 against the tiger

you can balance the game by cost or tickets but it's much harder to do

so Gaijin like wot are going the easy way by faking performances an crazy tiering

 

remember when Gaijin stated that they would make a game as historically accurate as possible

apparently that's gone

the worst thing is that all of this is done to content arcade player when they could make a different tree for RB ( after all they do make a different FM ) but no RB players have to get the messed up arcade tiering

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HESH became ineffective when spall liners were used. (In 1942 I don't think many tanks had them though)


@OP maybe they can limit the opponents that the axis faces? Ex: Like the worst JPN would face was M4s and Germany's most dangerous opponents would be M26s and the earliest centurions.

Matilda IIs and Valentines are going to have a field day against the IJA.

 

And here we have the "German jet" issue again. Seeing as none of these tanks fought against the Tiger II...

Meh, the KT's going to be one hell of a hard target from the front regardless, and given that Gaijin are giving the last one the 10.5 cm gun that the Germans intended to mount on it it should be able to give back as good as it takes.

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And Italy ...
 

i am an Italian player. Let's talk a second. I know the condition of my country durino the war. I know the crap tank. I know the prejudicte of the people on the Italian person. With that tank we fought, we lost. We win, in inferiority, and witout the super-tank of the other Nation. I don't care if in a Italian tech tree a M14 can't fight against the other tank. For me is important to drive the tank of my Nation, and have fun with that.
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Just like M4s and M4A1s vs the Africa Corps PzIII and PzIV (short 75mm)

 

I'm sure Gaijin will. Seeing the f***ed up plane tiering.

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I didn't read it all because it was a wall of text but what I did get is that you need a bit of clarification, as far as im aware the tier V tanks are command Tiger II's which had additional armour on top of their already decent/high armour value, whether this balances it remains to be seen but nonetheless, its not a standard Tiger II.

 

As for the japanese thing, Japan had quite a few good mockup for tanks which would have been built if not for a lack of materials ( the iron embargo on them by the United State and the internal bickering and fight over materials between the IJN and IJA ) to compare it would be to say america had the mock ups and working prototypes  of the sherman/pershing but were forced to field stuarts throughout the war due to the navy taking most the steel for their ships then and the Army not being able to produce much else as a result.

In this scenario as long as they find sufficient evidence that it would have been built in numbers and they have predicted performance of the tank I don't see why they can't add them.

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I didn't read it all because it was a wall of text but what I did get is that you need a bit of clarification, as far as im aware the tier V tanks are command Tiger II's which had additional armour on top of their already decent/high armour value, whether this balances it remains to be seen but nonetheless, its not a standard Tiger II.

No, top Tiger II is a fantasy Tiger II with a proposed upgrade to a 105mm KwK 46. No armor upgrades whatsoever.

 

And command Tiger II didn't have additional armor anyway

Edited by RoflSeal
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I didn't read it all because it was a wall of text but what I did get is that you need a bit of clarification, as far as im aware the tier V tanks are command Tiger II's which had additional armour on top of their already decent/high armour value, whether this balances it remains to be seen but nonetheless, its not a standard Tiger II.

 

As for the japanese thing, Japan had quite a few good mockup for tanks which would have been built if not for a lack of materials ( the iron embargo on them by the United State and the internal bickering and fight over materials between the IJN and IJA ) to compare it would be to say america had the mock ups and working prototypes  of the sherman/pershing but were forced to field stuarts throughout the war due to the navy taking most the steel for their ships then and the Army not being able to produce much else as a result.

In this scenario as long as they find sufficient evidence that it would have been built in numbers and they have predicted performance of the tank I don't see why they can't add them.

 

most of the interesting tanks were build in prototypes anyways so that will be fine.

 

STA 1 could make for a nice end line tank, even though its from 1954 (IIRC)

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