PiranhaPariah

What a German ace though about the P47 and P51

Here is a quoted text out of "WWII: Luftwaffe Combat Planes & Aces' 
This is how a German ace thought about the P-51 and P-47 + their pilots.
"When I was transferred to a squadron for home defense against heavy four engined bombers with their fighter escorts, I finally met the P-47 and, later, the P-51. My recollections of these two aircraft are not happy ones. There were so many of them, it was hard to get at the bombers and during the last year of the war, American fighters were all around us. The P-47 wasn't so bad because we could out turn and out climb it, initially. But that big American fighter could roll with deceiving speed and when it came down on you in along dive, there was no way you could get away from it. It must have a huge brick into i, somewhere. In addition to inflicting tremendous punishment, it could absorb an incredible amount of firepower and still fly. The P-51 was something else. It was an awful antagonist, in the truest sense of that word and we hated it. It could do everything we could do and do it much better. First off, it was hard to recognize. Unless you saw it from the side, it looked like a 109. This caused us trouble from the outset. We would see them, think they were ours and then the damned things shoot us full of hole. We didn't like them at all!"
....
"During the war I had the oppertunity to fly captured P-47's and P-51's. I didn't like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so may hours in the snug confines of the 109, everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly, because of its reactions and capabilities, it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit. I'm surprised your pilots could find the time to fight. We had nothing like this in the 109. Everything was simple and very close to the pilot. You fitted into the cockpit like a hand in a glove. Our instrumentation was complete, but simple: throttle, mixture control and prop pitch. How your pilots were able to work on all their gadgets and still function amazes me."
Walter Wolfrum

 

"Luftwaffe pilots are Murca fanboys" -Luftwaffe fanboy

 

Or how bout some quotes from Gunther Rall. (full story here http://www.historynet.com/luftwaffe-ace-gnther-rall-remembers-february-97-world-war-ii-feature.htm)

 

Rall:....Then by way of foreign aid, particularly in the south around the Caucasus where I was fighting, they brought in Spitfires and the Bell P-39 Airacobra, which I liked and the Russians liked but which was inferior to the Bf-109. It had the engine behind the cockpit. Now the big thing in the Home Defense as far as problems was the P-51. The P-51 was a damned good airplane and it had tremendous endurance, which for us was a new dimension. The P-47, which as you know shot me down, we knew right away. It had tremendous diving speed and could run up to 1,400 kilometers per hour, where the Bf-109 was limited to 1,000 kph. I learned this quickly when they chased me, and I could do nothing else. The structural layout design of the P-47 was much stronger, yet I consider the P-51 the best battle horse you had of all the fighter escorts.

Edited by TheGovernment
  • Upvote 13
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think of the overall tactical situation. 

You have to get off the ground and climb up at a bomber formation, which is the main objective, NOT the fighters. 
The americans had numerical advantage and the germans at that point in the war were basically a shadow of what the luftwaffe used to be. 
They also often sent up the wrong plane for the job. The 190A's were poor climbers and the 109's were starting to be in short supply. 

You had to get to the bombers, which had a fighter escort already waiting for you much higher up. 
Most of the american pilots were already a bit fatigued by the time they got into combat but there were still MORE of the. 

In the later stages of the war when the germans sent up the 190D, it was more than capable of taking on ANYTHING the allies had to throw at it. 
It is on par, if not better due to it's armament than the P51. But it was in far too small numbers to be a decisive factor in the war. 

So no. The P47 and P51 were not technically better than the german planes. In one on one combat, an experienced luftwaffe pilot would always triumph. 

And i know some might bring up the last air offensive on allied air bases in the north of france, but those were conducted with inexperienced pilots who were rushed into combat.
The deciding factor was logistics and economy of attrition. 

  • Upvote 5
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Think of the overall tactical situation. 

You have to get off the ground and climb up at a bomber formation, which is the main objective, NOT the fighters. 
The americans had numerical advantage and the germans at that point in the war were basically a shadow of what the luftwaffe used to be. 
They also often sent up the wrong plane for the job. The 190A's were poor climbers and the 109's were starting to be in short supply. 

You had to get to the bombers, which had a fighter escort already waiting for you much higher up. 
Most of the american pilots were already a bit fatigued by the time they got into combat but there were still MORE of the. 

In the later stages of the war when the germans sent up the 190D, it was more than capable of taking on ANYTHING the allies had to throw at it. 
It is on par, if not better due to it's armament than the P51. But it was in far too small numbers to be a decisive factor in the war. 

So no. The P47 and P51 were not technically better than the german planes. In one on one combat, an experienced luftwaffe pilot would always triumph. 

And i know some might bring up the last air offensive on allied air bases in the north of france, but those were conducted with inexperienced pilots who were rushed into combat.
The deciding factor was logistics and economy of attrition. 

Ill take what the German ace said, I think he would be a better source of information.

  • Upvote 16
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MUHREKUH

Shut up, The P-51 won the war, don't you listen to anything the history channel tells you? God kids today..

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 5
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So no. The P47 and P51 were not technically better than the german planes. In one on one combat, an experienced luftwaffe pilot would always triumph. 

And i know some might bring up the last air offensive on allied air bases in the north of france, but those were conducted with inexperienced pilots who were rushed into combat.
The deciding factor was logistics and economy of attrition. 

 an experienced pilot would be able to win in inferior aircraft. Don gentile and hsi wingman got into a 30 minute dogfight  with over a dozen 109s and shot down 6 -planes, clearly your saying that all the germans in this planes were novices in early 1943....

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 an experienced pilot would be able to win in inferior aircraft. Don gentile and hsi wingman got into a 30 minute dogfight  with over a dozen 109s and shot down 6 -planes, clearly your saying that all the germans in this planes were novices in early 1943....

 

Yes they were. Most of the elite were dead after the battle of britain unfortunately. 
Seriously, do none of you read up anything and just pull favorable facts out of your arses?

The german aces with the highest kill counts were on the eastern front. 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6OkmQ61TkY[/media]

This documentary would also benefit your research, unless you are crippled by lack of foreign language skills. 

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes they were. Most of the elite were dead after the battle of britain unfortunately. 
Seriously, do none of you read up anything and just pull favorable facts out of your arses?

The german aces with the highest kill counts were on the eastern front. 
 

 Considering Marseilles had 140 and they were all western aircraft and he was in africa.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_aces_from_Germany

 

not a lot of KIA 1940.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you even read what I posted?

 

Yes i did. Walter Wolfrum was a 109G6 pilot. Everyone knows the G6 was less agile than the P51. 
And it doesn't discredit what i told you. You can't be that picky with your facts. 

  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ultimately this quote is useless. The P51 and P47 were not single winning factors. 
There are far too many complexities and factors that lead to an ultimate victory in a war, from logistics, economy, the overall strategic situation, etc... 

They are just two more ego bolstering facsimiles that people list as "war winning miracles". 
Like the M1 rifle, the T34, the Sherman, the Spitfire, the P51, the B17 and on and on and on. 

In a scenario where you have a clean sheet and all the other factors don't come into account, you can truly see which is better. 

War Thunder gives us such a platform, even with all its limitations of FM and DM. 
You can see that the best of the german aircraft are leaps and bounds better than both the P51 and P47. 

And to anyone who schools themselves in the doctrines of the old luftwaffe aces will atest that both are just a joke.

 

Edited by Von_Falkenheim
  • Upvote 5
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MUHREKUH

Shut up, The P-51 won the war, don't you listen to anything the history channel tells you? God kids today..

No, silly, the 109/190 clearly won the war even more! :facepalm:  The history chanell is slanted towards axis; just look at their sherman video.

  • Upvote 6
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, silly, the 109/190 clearly won the war even more! :facepalm:  The history chanell is slanted towards axis; just look at their sherman video.

 

you can argue about a lot of things. But an 88 shell is thoroughly messing up your day if you get hit by one.

  • Upvote 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Considering Marseilles had 140 and they were all western aircraft and he was in africa.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_aces_from_Germany

 

not a lot of KIA 1940

he never had to go up against p51s or p47s though

 

he was flying a f4 against kittyhawks and hurricanes mostly, and the f4 pretty much outclassed the hurricane in every single way

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

he never had to go up against p51s or p47s though

 

he was flying a f4 against kittyhawks and hurricanes mostly, and the f4 pretty much outclassed the hurricane in every single way

Yeah but the point was all high scorers  were on the eastern front, which is false.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay this is a very interesting topic and I would like to put my two cents in. I will start by saying most of the German high score aces that served on the Eastern front obtained their high kill scores by shooting down inferior Soviet aircraft at the time and against novice Soviet pilots. And although the 109 and the 190 in my opinion were both exceptional aircraft of their time they had only minor advantages over any of the allied aircraft put into the air later on in the war and numbers and logistics played more of a effect on the air war. I would also like to point out that most of the Royal Air Force that fought in the Battle of Britain consisted of hurricanes and not spitfires and the British victory there was due to a combination of factors that I will not list in this comment. And one more thing many of the German aces/experienced pilots that fought on the Western front could never obtain the high kill scores of their Eastern front compatriots because the allies kept such pressure on the Germans they were forced to fly mission after mission until they were shot down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ultimately this quote is useless. The P51 and P47 were not single winning factors. 
There are far too many complexities and factors that lead to an ultimate victory in a war, from logistics, economy, the overall strategic situation, etc... 

They are just two more ego bolstering facsimiles that people list as "war winning miracles". 
Like the M1 rifle, the T34, the Sherman, the Spitfire, the P51, the B17 and on and on and on. 

In a scenario where you have a clean sheet and all the other factors don't come into account, you can truly see which is better. 

War Thunder gives us such a platform, even with all its limitations of FM and DM. 
You can see that the best of the german aircraft are leaps and bounds better than both the P51 and P47. 

And to anyone who schools themselves in the doctrines of the old luftwaffe aces will atest that both are just a joke.

 

Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang 

Black12.jpg
Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP. 
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.) 
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.) 
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) & 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20). 

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02. 
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009. 
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 . 

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.) 
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

-Bubble-canopy & Flettner Tabs. 
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance & "Kommandogerat".

4FG.jpg
P-51D Mustang Statistics: 

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7. 
Power: 1,790 HP. 
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph). 
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2). 

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics: 

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 . 
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

 

The P51 wasn't outclassed by the Dora by any means. It was a good contender for it though. 

 

Still at very high altitudes the P47 and p51 could take on the Dora. P51 could take it on at lower altitudes as well, at middle altitudes I could see the Dora being a tough nut.

 

Anyway this isn't about the dora, bf109's, or a single plane being a single winning factor of the war, its just what a Luftwaffe ace thought about American planes, and thats that. This isn't a proper place to push your agenda.

Edited by TheGovernment
  • Upvote 5
medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those are 100 octane numbers for the p51d TheGovernment, you will find that 44-1 for both the p47d and p51d are far more comparable.  Also, those numbers posted for the fw190d-9 are 2.02 ata, no ect504, and engine gap sealed...  This is a configuration that never saw service outside of flight testing.

 

 

44-1 p51d was capable of 444 mph at 22,000 ft (75"), and had an initial climb rate of over 4,200 ft/min at 9,400lbs, max hp was 1870 at 7500 ft, .2 hp/lb.  p47d with 44-1 was capable of 445mph at 22,000 ft (70"), and had an initial climb rate over 3,500 ft.min at 13,300 lbs with wing racks, max hp was over 2,600 hp at 23,000 ft, .19 hp/lb.  Wing racks reduced maximum speed by a few mph.

Edited by taco86
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this. 

I think its more important about what your enemy's feel about your aircraft rather than how confident you are about your own aircraft. At high ALT would the P-51D pilots really fear the brand new Fw-190D9? I bet in their eyes the Bf-109K4 would probably be a much more dangerous threat. 

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this. 

I think its more important about what your enemy's feel about your aircraft rather than how confident you are about your own aircraft. At high ALT would the P-51D pilots really fear the brand new Fw-190D9? I bet in their eyes the Bf-109K4 would probably be a much more dangerous threat. 

Tempest pilots sure didnt.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xc9VL50EKHA#t=2633

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay this is a very interesting topic and I would like to put my two cents in. I will start by saying most of the German high score aces that served on the Eastern front obtained their high kill scores by shooting down inferior Soviet aircraft at the time and against novice Soviet pilots. And although the 109 and the 190 in my opinion were both exceptional aircraft of their time they had only minor advantages over any of the allied aircraft put into the air later on in the war and numbers and logistics played more of a effect on the air war. I would also like to point out that most of the Royal Air Force that fought in the Battle of Britain consisted of hurricanes and not spitfires and the British victory there was due to a combination of factors that I will not list in this comment. And one more thing many of the German aces/experienced pilots that fought on the Western front could never obtain the high kill scores of their Eastern front compatriots because the allies kept such pressure on the Germans they were forced to fly mission after mission until they were shot down.




Erik did not enter combat till 1943! Guess there goes that theory !
medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They were actually stating "Radial Engined Fw190" which the Fw190D isn't... also the pictures (as far as I did see) show "short" fw190.

those are clearly D models in the video,watch from 44 till 46 minutes many shots. and the 190D looks like it has a radial even if it isnt.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.