597 posts in this topic

On 27. 8. 2016 at 9:27 PM, Panzerdonner said:

Steel Ocean is a cute arcade game, but has as much to do with naval combat as Call of Duty has to do with realistic squad tactics. Using any of it's elements as an argument for War Thunder is just nonsense, especially when it comes to submarines.

...says someone playing arcade.

 

The thing is - realistically made submarines would actually be balanced. I mean, if 200 m below the surface - you have no way of confirming your position ;) Is that not balanced enough for you?

 

And what about sonar and hydrophones as a bunch of ghost-lines on the screen (AB, RB)?

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7 hours ago, CaptainDyllanRex said:

Say, can active sonar detect a torpedo?

I think it depends on which type and how far it is.

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On 22/10/2016 at 8:18 PM, CaptainDyllanRex said:

Say, can active sonar detect a torpedo?

 

Passive one can detect a torpedo, because almost all torpedoes use sonar and/or make acoustic sound when "entering" in water and when it moves.

So active sonar can detect everything (a torpedo, a non-prepared U-boat, a whale, an underwater "gas"......well maybe this last thing not [in WW2], but it's funny to think that someone detected a submarine because one crew member had intestinal problems....)....but I'm not here to explain how sonars work......

 

 

Edited by Lioshan
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Subs are like any other war machine.

 

Those who ignore ASW pretends it does not fit the game. Those who have knowledge of ASW knows that subs sank each others during WWII. Subs sank more commercial ships than War ships during WWII, because there were at one point on the seas, more freighters than warships. And they also sank a lot of warship i.e US subs sinking Japanese warship during WWII. Take a look at the figures.

 

Subs are war machines like any other one, with their tactical limitations. It might be difficult for development to create maps with a bottom.

 

But otherwise, explaining away that subs don't fit, is plainly explaining away a refusal to adapt to new technologies, new tactics. It is plainly explaining that sub will push some players out of their comfort zone.

 

Who said that combat was comfortable???;)

 

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome...or die!

Edited by GunnyHighway
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12 hours ago, Been_Benuane said:

Not

Going

To

Happen

 

Hate to agree.

 

Love the ridiculous use of depth charges they decided on.

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On 7.11.2016 at 1:00 PM, Been_Benuane said:

Not

Going

To

Happen

 

Really do you believe that DC on PT-boats is a weapon against another PT-boats?

:D

 

Next step on Gaijin's Navy will be destroyers and probably submarines who may catch the points when submerged only. 

Arcade gameplay only like Steel Ocean or GunFleet games.

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2 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

Really do you believe that DC on PT-boats is a weapon against another PT-boats?

:D

 

Next step on Gaijin's Navy will be destroyers and probably submarines who may catch the points when submerged only. 

Arcade gameplay only like Steel Ocean or GunFleet games.

 

Well, they have claimed it is and also put forth an example of depth charge use against surface vessels from real life in http://warthunder.com/en/news/4347-naval-snippets-from-history-part-2-en/

Though I guess we have to keep in mind that they also put forth a story about how torpedoes had trouble with german f-lighters' shallow draught, yet torpedoes in pre-beta have no issue striking boats.

Edited by tizianenel
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look lads. steel ocean got this right in my opinion that is a very good way of doing it because it works very well and is balanced and wt should in my opinion do something very similar. i believe that wt can as well. look what they have done already.

 

for the people who don't know steep ocean go check it out its basically a naval version of war thunder and is worth the download if you are looking for a good online multiplayer naval game in WW2 ships/subs/destroyers/carriers/battle ships. even if you go and watch a few vids of game play.

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39 minutes ago, BossManST said:

look lads. steel ocean got this right in my opinion that is a very good way of doing it because it works very well and is balanced and wt should in my opinion do something very similar. i believe that wt can as well. look what they have done already.

 

for the people who don't know steep ocean go check it out its basically a naval version of war thunder and is worth the download if you are looking for a good online multiplayer naval game in WW2 ships/subs/destroyers/carriers/battle ships. even if you go and watch a few vids of game play.

It closer to World of Warships than warthunder, its very unrealistic thier implementation so using them as an example for WT isnt a good argument 

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its better than nothing.

and this is a wt forum so its a description that everyone can relate to

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3 hours ago, the_suztown said:
4 hours ago, BossManST said:

 

It closer to World of Warships than warthunder, its very unrealistic thier implementation so using them as an example for WT isnt a good argument 

 

 

Well, world of warships has found commercial success.

 

Warthunder has clearly attempted to copy elements (perfect example: T95/T28 super-heavy tanks being DIFFERENT THINGS according to Russian developers) from World of Tanks, which has a much bigger market share.

 

Funnily enough the one element they haven't tried to copy is by far the one they're being xxxx on for. WoWS has turned off tons of players (myself included) for its shell dispersion mechanics, horrendous netcode (Not that Gaijin could do that one better), and ahistorical mechanics like dozens of smokescreens per match and fires.

 

So instead of a commercially successful naval portion of War Thunder that was ready to ship 2 years ago we got... boats. Yep. River boats.

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this will go on for ages. but lets just hope what ever they give us is good and that they fix as many other issues as they can in the posses.

 

 

and we must not forget that its all just a game. 

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Ill be honest I think even Anton was taken aback at how negative the reaction to "ships" was, for instance the Russian version of the clarification thread had to be locked due to almost 8000 negative posts (compaired to maybe 40 positive posts) and then pretty much the agreed stance on the pre beta as rather bland

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On 24.12.2016 at 3:29 PM, BossManST said:

look lads. steel ocean got this right in my opinion that is a very good way of doing it because it works very well and is balanced and wt should in my opinion do something very similar. i believe that wt can as well. look what they have done already.

 

for the people who don't know steep ocean go check it out its basically a naval version of war thunder and is worth the download if you are looking for a good online multiplayer naval game in WW2 ships/subs/destroyers/carriers/battle ships. even if you go and watch a few vids of game play.

 

Yes thats thue that WoWs or SO have it but there games are not realistic (in example with disappearing ships).   

In fact WT DEV team have no idea how to create and finish a naval battle with big ships in 30 minutes including respawns (maybe RB gamestyle only?).

Players need huge distance to constructive play, but the efficiency of shooting at long distances (especially for destroyers against battleships) may be problematic here.  

 

More chances to see DD vs SUB convoy battles style than fleet battles for me due small distance required to successful torpedo attack. But still we have no scenario where one side is attacking and second is defensing the target. At the last announced "convoy mission" the is a navy meeting with two convoys (ally and enemy)...

:facepalm:

Edited by PL_Andrev
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ASW weapon spotted...

 

Really will we use hedgehog and side deep charge throwers against boats?  

 

 

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3 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

ASW weapon spotted...

 

Really will we use hedgehog and side deep charge throwers against boats?  

 

 

That appears to be what Gaijin is going for.

Edited by Mercedes4321
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18 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

ASW weapon spotted...

 

Really will we use hedgehog and side deep charge throwers against boats?  

Already using torpedoes against river and patrol boats, it wasn't exactly a leap.

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Depth Charges are really used against boats. I have a quote from a PT-boat manual from 1945

 

Depth Charges.-Though seldom used, they are always good passengers to have along. These demons of the deep can be used against both surface craft and subs. Squadron X in the Solomons effectively scared a japan destroyer that was bearing down on a PT by using a depth charge. Who knows when a japan sub will pop up? So, keep them handy and ready.

page 24 of this manual "Know your PT-boat"

https://maritime.org/doc/pt/know/index.htm

 

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Greetings all,

Reference Subs:

 

As the Dev's have stated the Sub game as well as the battleship gameplay would take way more time to effectively play than we currently have in the match's.

It would require bottom mapping for any coastal map, not an easy element to implement especially with ground forces using the same contour mapping they now have. It could be done, but as we've seen in the ships opening gameplay, new maps were designed specifically for this type of game. The original maps (coastal types) may not have any contours modeled below the surface and take considerable time to implement. Faster to design a new map than modify an existing one, cost wise.

- Consider 6-12km speed submerged, at best for earlier Subs, and most surface targets just outrun you. And with 75km speed attack ships your gameplay may be very short, and not much fun.

- Aircraft can actually see you while submerged, when at periscope level, mark you for other forces, and it's a fast return to hanger. Not much fun happening there.

- You have a very fragile boat, any fire from ground or air forces and you are compromised at any depth. Even attempting to return fire at these same targets, with the wave action we have seen in the Beta, is very tricky.

 

Now all this being said, I did like other Sub games, but it's the long game and could take hours to complete missions. No time compression allowed in WarThunder thus spawning directly into battle somewhat ruins the tactic of Subs, for me at least. Acoustic detection was only a mid to late war element, ASDEC, basically passive listening was only fitted on dedicated Sub hunting ships. Mostly Sub hunters and DD's and we only see the mid size ships being tested.

So I can understand the Dev.'s saying no to there development, just too many variables to build and alter just for one line of elements.

 

Just my opinions,

9erRed

Edited by n9erRed
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I think you missed few issues:

 

On 30.01.2017 at 0:02 AM, n9erRed said:

It would require bottom mapping for any coastal map, not an easy element to implement especially with ground forces using the same contour mapping they now have. It could be done, but as we've seen in the ships opening gameplay, new maps were designed specifically for this type of game. The original maps (coastal types) may not have any contours modeled below the surface and take considerable time to implement. Faster to design a new map than modify an existing one, cost wise.

 

The simply solution for subs game is... no bottom mapping, just open sea.

Coastal maps are good for hide ships on surface, but playing small subs it is not necessary. 

 

 

On 30.01.2017 at 0:02 AM, n9erRed said:

- Consider 6-12km speed submerged, at best for earlier Subs, and most surface targets just outrun you. And with 75km speed attack ships your gameplay may be very short, and not much fun.

 

The most funy game for ships is:

at subs:

  • stay hide and be undetected,
  • use tactics to evade escort ships,
  • make successful attack
  • evade counterattack of escort ships (stay live)

for dds:

  • detect submarines,
  • use advanced tactics to stop wolfpack's attack,
  • keep 2nd line of defence,
  • sunk them! sunk them all! 

You're right: there is no sens to play DD vs SUB. But there is a sense to play DD against SUB, where the target is convoy of slow ships f.e. with 8 knots only.

And subs may stay "somewhere" at front. If you have few rows / colums of convoy ships then subs have chance to multiple attacks for ships, pursuit them and sunk if damaged only.  

 

 

On 30.01.2017 at 0:02 AM, n9erRed said:

- Aircraft can actually see you while submerged, when at periscope level, mark you for other forces, and it's a fast return to hanger. Not much fun happening there.

 

You wrong - see at current Ab / RB GF gameplay style.

Players may use planes (as event or when killed) equipped with bombs / depth charges, mark targets and return to long-range aircraft group similar like allies did that with their hunter-killer groups. Secondly subs may be marked for planes when detected... 

 

 

On 30.01.2017 at 0:02 AM, n9erRed said:

- You have a very fragile boat, any fire from ground or air forces and you are compromised at any depth. Even attempting to return fire at these same targets, with the wave action we have seen in the Beta, is very tricky.

 

Tricky? Not at all.

Well, it is hard to spot and hit small submarine on surface (especially on long distance) where only coning tower is a visible target. Well... not at the night!

But submarines generally operated at night (on surface !) and may be spotted by search light / races.

So before attack them you should find them first...

 

The worst problem is a "boring" game where nothing to happened (subs try stay safe). The fun is start when some sub is detected.

 

 

On 30.01.2017 at 0:02 AM, n9erRed said:

Now all this being said, I did like other Sub games, but it's the long game and could take hours to complete missions. No time compression allowed in WarThunder thus spawning directly into battle somewhat ruins the tactic of Subs, for me at least. Acoustic detection was only a mid to late war element, ASDEC, basically passive listening was only fitted on dedicated Sub hunting ships. Mostly Sub hunters and DD's and we only see the mid size ships being tested.

So I can understand the Dev.'s saying no to there development, just too many variables to build and alter just for one line of elements.

 

You guess with "few hours" mission, do you?

I played several missions playing DD against SUB (multiplayer Destroyer Command vs. Silent Hunter II) and multiplayer Silent Hunter 3 & 4.

The time limit of our missions were 1.5h (most effective: hunting merchants) including missions against task forces (battleships and aircrafts).

 

I think that the people have problem with understanding submarine playable (broken by Silent Hunter series): there is no periscope depth only, because submarines tried to attack on surface at night. Submerged day attack is complicated for subs, but still possible. 

 

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