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1297125-silent.hunter4_wolves.of.the.pac

Seeing as ground forces have been released, I thought it would be a good time to bring up the topic of naval warfare and some of the things I'm hoping to see. I'm not interested in tanks enough to buy into closed beta, but I'm happy Tanks will be in the game.

However what I'm more interested in is whether or not Submarines will be included in the game. I would be very disappointing if they are not, as WWII submarine warfare is something I'm exceptionally good at, and it's probably the exact opposite of aviation combat.

From what we have seen of Tanks, it looks like War Thunder has more or less copied what works from World of Tanks and addressed some of the issues people have with that game in new ways. And it makes sense to copy what works.

With that said, I think Naval Warfare should copy the bulk of it's gameplay mechanics from Silent Hunter 3 & 4 with improvements. Those two games are really the highlights of the Silent Hunter games, and probably the most advanced WWII naval warfare games you can get, even today.

In fact, thinking about it now, why not treat Submarines as it's own category of vehicle, separating the release of Submarines from surface ships? Personally, I would hope to get Submarines before surface ships.

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Submarines have already been confirmed to not be playable I believe. Silent Hunter will probably the best your going to get.

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Submarines were excellent commerce raiders at a strategic level, however they were not an effective warship hunter at a tactical level.

 

Submarines often lacked the performance to compete in fleet action, as was found when the attempt was made several times in both wars. If they were to be added with everything else then they would need some serious nerfing and some gimmicks to balance then. Not something that WT really wants to do i assume. 

 

For a submarine to run silently underwater it is looking at around 4 knots or so, with a maximum of 9 knots running loud. Warships are making anywhere between 22knots to around 37knots or so. Now although torpedoes had a relatively long range at times, in order to hit the slowest targets you need a periscope sighting on the target. In order to see a target though a periscope you need to be around 3-4km away (its only a meter of the water). In order to be that close it means crossing quite a distance quite slowly, we are talking about an hour or so going by the map size. For fast moving warships its near on impossible to hit with torpedoes, with no warship hit above 25 knots or so with conventional torpedoes.

 

They could get their own escort game mode, but then they would run into issues with surface raiders taking all the kills long before they see the targets.

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We actually had a suggestion thread on this to have them both as AI targets and playable features for the Navy element of the game as well.

 

It was passed on to development so no promises but , it could well be a possibility later down the line  :yes:

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There are a lot of ways submarines could work in War Thunder with the problems listed above.

The first and most logical one is to have submarines spawn in the center of the map between two battle groups, that way ships will come to the submarines and they don't need to worry about catching up to the fleet.

Another very logical way to have submarines work is that Subs can pick a spot on the map where they would like to spawn with some restrictions, say they cannot spawn 8,000 yards from the enemy base and within 3500 yards of any enemy ship.

Yet another option I can think of, and this one requires team work, is that subs can spawn with the fleet on the surface and escorts can escort the sub to a location that gives a better vantage point, or hang with the fleet till they are close enough to engage.

Edited by JohnnyThunder
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That still brings in issues. A submarine underwater is not a hidden submarine from aircraft. Submarines can be spotted underwater upwards of 200 feet depending on the location, which means crush depth in places like the Pacific or the Mediterranean. Spawning submarines close to the enemy fleet will cause them to be at the mercy of the enemy air-power. If the submarines go deep then they are unable to communicate or even accurately find targets themselves.

 

But. Submarines need to be forward deployed. Most making around 20 knots or so at the most on the surface, still around 10 knots slower then most of their surface counterparts. Been slower and less maneuverable then most of the surface, if they are spotted they have little defence against gunfire. Making them just not late to the fight but also they then need to crawl underwater to target.

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Really the only way to implement them would be in specific destroyer/escort ships vs submarines type missions. You'd have to protect a fleet as they transition through an area where the submarines have been setup in ambush. May be doing those missions would give a bonus to one side in an area for the week in World War mode. That would be cool.

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Being able to spawn at nearly any point on the map underwater would defiantly make submarines a viable option in War Thunder.

You could spawn close enough to the enemy in order to start shooting within 7 minutes, and because you can spawn almost anywhere nobody would know for sure where you are, giving you stealth advantage while at the same time making you big enough of a threat that destroyers will probably seek you out first and try and get ride of you before turning their attention to fleet carriers and battleships.
 

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So would that not just allow spawn camping then?

 

And you are still not getting that bit about torpedoes targeting fast moving warships...

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Submarines can fit in the game easy. U-boat wasn't OP, I mean during ww2 casualties and losses were 783 U-boats lost.

War ships can destroy them easy, for example using hydrophones or sonar they detected the U-boats and then the ships passed over the place they were sumerged and the next step was to drop depth charges. A submarine is slow underwater and fragile, once they are detected they are doomed in most of cases.

Edited by sabaton_

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Submarines can fit in the game easy. U-boat wasn't OP, I mean during ww2 casualties and losses were 783 U-boats lost.

War ships can destroy them easy, for example using hydrophones or sonar they detected the U-boats and then the ships passed over the place they were sumerged and the next step was to drop depth charges. A submarine is slow underwater and fragile, once they are detected they are doomed in most of cases.

 

The problem is that if they spawn where everyone else is they're completely ineffective because it would be impossible for them to get close enough to the enemy fleet to attack them in the game time.

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Submarines were excellent commerce raiders at a strategic level, however they were not an effective warship hunter at a tactical level.

 

Submarines often lacked the performance to compete in fleet action, as was found when the attempt was made several times in both wars. If they were to be added with everything else then they would need some serious nerfing and some gimmicks to balance then. Not something that WT really wants to do i assume. 

 

For a submarine to run silently underwater it is looking at around 4 knots or so, with a maximum of 9 knots running loud. Warships are making anywhere between 22knots to around 37knots or so. Now although torpedoes had a relatively long range at times, in order to hit the slowest targets you need a periscope sighting on the target. In order to see a target though a periscope you need to be around 3-4km away (its only a meter of the water). In order to be that close it means crossing quite a distance quite slowly, we are talking about an hour or so going by the map size. For fast moving warships its near on impossible to hit with torpedoes, with no warship hit above 25 knots or so with conventional torpedoes.

 

They could get their own escort game mode, but then they would run into issues with surface raiders taking all the kills long before they see the targets.

 

 

Submarines can fit in the game easy. U-boat wasn't OP, I mean during ww2 casualties and losses were 783 U-boats lost.

War ships can destroy them easy, for example using hydrophones or sonar they detected the U-boats and then the ships passed over the place they were sumerged and the next step was to drop depth charges. A submarine is slow underwater and fragile, once they are detected they are doomed in most of cases.

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Modern submarine Tactics have evolved since WWII, speed combined with decoys can allow one to easy maneuver in between escorts to get into striking distance of high priority targets. The escorts get confused about who the real target is and chase after your decoy, allowing you to get close in to Carriers or battleships with enough time to do a solution and get a few hits in.

In all honesty I'm finding the A.I. in Silent Hunter 4 too dumb these days, I'm hoping I can play ageist real players that won't be so easily fooled by decoys.

Edited by JohnnyThunder
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Correct; Modern submarine tactics, not those in game.

 

What a lot of people forget is that we are talking about interwar to the early 50's here. The only time Submarines are notable warship hunters in this period is detestably at the very close. For the rest of the games time the speed would not allow them to sufficiently be in fleet actions, they maneuverability is similar to that of a submerged brick, your sonar will not let you accurately pinpoint targets let alone escort positions to sneak under and decoys are ineffective at best at the end time. Lets not confuse times and tactics...

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Well, War Thunder is not WWII, it doesn't fallow the rules in regards to history needing to be so linear.

Submarines are incredibly deadly weapons, a Gato Class submarine could sink the Yamamoto single handily. The only reason submarines were not very good at sinking enemy warships in WWII, is because of tactics, I do believe.

Submarine tactics of WWII valued Stealth over speed. So when an escort was in pursuit of a sub the submariner would go deep and slow in order escape. This is actually a bad idea because you really need to get out or range of their active sonar, which is usually only good up to 800 yards or so.

The better tactic to evade an enemy destroyer is to deploy decoys when they get into range of about 800 yards, and then flank like hell out of there. If the escort get's fooled by your decoy, even once, you will be well out of range of their active sonar by the time they bring their ship around.

Edited by JohnnyThunder
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I'm not talking about history, im talking about Physics.

 

True, submarine torpedoes were deadly, but the main issue was actually getting them into firing position. And if the Yamato had its 7 float planes up for ASW then the Gato does not stand a chance. Submarines were bad a sinking warships simply for performance. Tactics actually called for them to try and be part of the fleet for most navies, something that was fast abandoned when it was realized that they were not suited for the task.

 

Again, you are not understanding WW2 Decoys or sonar. Sonar at the time varied, interwar designs you are looking at 1.5Km or so for active where as later war stuff you are looking at up to 4.5Km for active. 

 

So. About Decoys and countermeasures. They are not the multi frequency sound emitting decoy that would be common aboard a modern hunter killer sub to fool enemy detection or torpedoes. The ones in the games time were often just a canister with chemicals that would cause a field of bubbles, effective at creating a fake sonar contact for active sonar by representing some sort of underwater mass. Of course the only issue been is that it only effects active sonar. Passive sonar or just listening to the surroundings is relatively unaffected by it. You try flank speed and you are still going to be heard to the point where you can be accurately tracked and ranged AND your little decoy will be marked as fake.

 

Now remember how i keep going on about submarine speed? Well lets say your destroyer does go for that decoy and you want to get out of Active sonar range. Going silently at around 3 knots or so its actually going to take a whole hour to sneak that 4.5Km or so out of Active sonar range, in which time your decoy that lasts 7 minutes or so has long run out.

 

Oh and you drop that decoy going slow and that destroyer goes on a ASW run on the decoy? Guess what. A Depth charge run is not a single drop, its typicaly a multiple depth, angle drop and number of depth charge drop. If that destroyer is accurate on the decoy the submarine is going to be rendered out of action either directly knocked out or every hydrophone, electronic system and submariners ear drum is now broken. That enemy can get fooled a lot more then once and he still has plenty of a chance to find and kill you, if you survive the depth charge run you have a period of a few seconds depending on location while the sound dissipates which after the destroyer is going to try and kill you again.

 

Again, people really need to learn that the modern notion of submarines is nothing like that of in the past.

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do_2.jpgdo_3.jpgdo_1.jpg 

I want to shot Do38 Gerät from submerged german subs.

100% historicaly 

 

[spoiler]Die Idee, Raketen unter Wasser zu starten, kam von dem Peenemünder Dr.-Ing. Ernst Steinhoff. Kein Wunder, denn sein Bruder war der U-Bootkommandant Kapitänleutnant Steinhoff. Um überhaupt erste Versuche durchführen zu können, nutzte man vorhandene Pulverraketen. Unter Verantwortung von Walter Dornberger (= Namensgeber) waren in den 30er Jahren für die sog. Nebeltruppe, einer militärischen Einheit anfangs für das Vernebeln zuständig, verschiedene Raketenwerfer entwickelt worden. So z.B. auch das Do-Gerät 38, das für Fallschirmjäger vorgesehen war. Ab 1941 fertigte man u.a. das "Schwere Wurfgerät 41", ein aus Stahl gefertigtes Gestell für vier Stahlpackkisten. Jeweils sechs Stahlpackkisten wurden in einem Werfergestell behelfsmäßig auf Deck des U-Bootes U 511, das zur IX C-Klasse gehörte, befestigt. Am 4.Juni 1942 fanden die ersten Schussversuche von diesem U-Boot im getauchten Zustand in der Nähe der Greifswalder Oie statt. Es gab weniger Probleme als erwartet. Die Tauchtiefe betrug 10-15 m. Wenn auch die erreichte Entfernung nur 4 km betrug, so hatte sich das Verfahren in mehreren Salven als praktikabel erwiesen. Durch die anfängliche "Führung" der Geschoss im Wasser ergab sich eine geringere Streuung. So lag der Gedanke nahe, auf an der Küste gelagerte Ziele, insbesondere au Treibstofftanks, aus etwa drei Kilometer Abstand zu schießen. Da das Marinewaffenamt mit dem behelfsmäßigem Aufbau der Werfergestelle nicht zufrieden war, konnten sich die U-Boote jedoch nicht mehr so nah an gegnerische Küsten heranwagen.[/spoiler]

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destroyer can survive at one shot of 457 mm gun but subarine can not survie again one shot of 127 mm .  How can you balance that ? :dntknw:

Edited by Yelizaveta
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Again, people really need to learn that the modern notion of submarines is nothing like that of in the past.

Stop assuming I don't know what you are talking about. I understand what you think is wrong with submarines, and I think you are wrong.
 

So. About Decoys and countermeasures. They are not the multi frequency sound emitting decoy that would be common aboard a modern hunter killer sub to fool enemy detection or torpedoes. The ones in the games time were often just a canister with chemicals that would cause a field of bubbles, effective at creating a fake sonar contact for active sonar by representing some sort of underwater mass. Of course the only issue been is that it only effects active sonar. Passive sonar or just listening to the surroundings is relatively unaffected by it. You try flank speed and you are still going to be heard to the point where you can be accurately tracked and ranged AND your little decoy will be marked as fake.

You know what's really good at confusing passive sonar?

...Other sonar contacts.

You know where you can find other sonar contacts?

...In a Battleship Formation.
 

Oh and you drop that decoy going slow and that destroyer goes on a ASW run on the decoy? Guess what. A Depth charge run is not a single drop, its typicaly a multiple depth, angle drop and number of depth charge drop. If that destroyer is accurate on the decoy the submarine is going to be rendered out of action either directly knocked out or every hydrophone, electronic system and submariners ear drum is now broken. That enemy can get fooled a lot more then once and he still has plenty of a chance to find and kill you, if you survive the depth charge run you have a period of a few seconds depending on location while the sound dissipates which after the destroyer is going to try and kill you again.


I have played nearly every Silent Hunter game and have probably over 4000 hours of game time in those games, you don't need to explain to me how submarine warfare works.


Now remember how i keep going on about submarine speed? Well lets say your destroyer does go for that decoy and you want to get out of Active sonar range. Going silently at around 3 knots or so its actually going to take a whole hour to sneak that 4.5Km or so out of Active sonar range, in which time your decoy that lasts 7 minutes or so has long run out.


What you described is indeed the reason why Submarines where not very effective ageist fighting warships. But here is the thing, and why I keep saying Tactics have evolved. When you deploy decoys, you don't try and sneak away at 3 knots, you RUN away, at 9 knot flank speed.

And if you are in a battleship formation, or convoy, you run in the direction of the battleships, cruisers or carriers which are your targets anyway. Their engines will mask the sound of your engines on the enemy destroyers passive sonar, thus all they will see is the decoy or you, and if they pick the decoy, they might not even switch over to passive sonar to try and find you because they might assume you are down there at 250 feet doing 1 knot trying to escape, by the time they realize they have been duped you will already have sunk their battleship.

Now that I have explained away my tactics which would work in War Thunder, will you stop assuming that Submarines are so weak? Or that because you can't outsmart destroyers nobody can?
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Stop assuming I don't know what you are talking about. I understand what you think is wrong with submarines, and I think you are wrong. You know what's really good at confusing passive sonar?...Other sonar contacts.You know where you can find other sonar contacts?...In a Battleship Formation. I have played nearly every Silent Hunter game and have probably over 4000 hours of game time in those games, you don't need to explain to me how submarine warfare works.What you described is indeed the reason why Submarines where not very effective ageist fighting warships. But here is the thing, and why I keep saying Tactics have evolved. When you deploy decoys, you don't try and sneak away at 3 knots, you RUN away, at 9 knot flank speed.And if you are in a battleship formation, or convoy, you run in the direction of the battleships, cruisers or carriers which are your targets anyway. Their engines will mask the sound of your engines on the enemy destroyers passive sonar, thus all they will see is the decoy or you, and if they pick the decoy, they might not even switch over to passive sonar to try and find you because they might assume you are down there at 250 feet doing 1 knot trying to escape, by the time they realize they have been duped you will already have sunk their battleship.Now that I have explained away my tactics which would work in War Thunder, will you stop assuming that Submarines are so weak? Or that because you can't outsmart destroyers nobody can?


Congratulations. You have taken silent Hunter as a literal basis for ww2 submarine and ASW warfare. The only issue of course is that silent Hunter has been said countless times to be lacking in multiple areas, notorious things such as the bad thermal layers in SH4 to the complete periscope ranging failure in SH5 do not fill me with confidence in regards to its historical accuracy.

Correct other contacts will mask a submarines noise, however that is limited depending on the location of escorts... Say if that submarine is on the opposite side of the escort to the battleship... Like if it was trying to attack the said group.

As I pointed out, a submarine making flak speed at 6-9 knots or so is still going to be quite a large passive contact with the cavitation and form friction/vibrations caused. Making even that speed after dropping decoys is still going to take most of the match to get out of active sonar range.

What you are explaining is a classic gamers principle. A submarine at flank speed trying to follow a battleship going at it's manoeuvring speed at best is half as slow, at worst it's going around 4 times as slow depending on the ship. That submarine is soon going to fall out of the turbulent sound envelope and be killed, let alone if it tries to follow a destroyer on a depth charge run, not only will you get depth charged but you cannot match the manoeuvring.

No I'm not assuming submarines are weak, I know they are in the games time. Modern tactics they would be fine, but not in Pre ww2-Korea.
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Silent Hunter 5 was a travesty, I would not consider that a very good representation of WWII at all. Silent Hunter 3 and 4 however, with mods, is close enough that we can use it as a good approximation.

I'm not saying that a submarine will ever be able to catch up to a Battleship or a Carrier if it's chasing it, what I am saying is that, if the submarine is properly placed when it spawns, it can be in a position to attack a battleship or carrier within a typical historical game round of War Thunder (about 7 minutes).

You are only going to get one shot per round to sink any targets, but that's just as true as it is in real life. Where you typically only have one chance to attack a convoy or battle group. However, if you are a submarine and you spawn in a typical historical battle of War Thunder and you only manage to sink one ship, it was worth it.

The only issue that I agree with you on, is that Submarine cannot be treated as typical ships because they will lag behind the fleet and will not be able to get into range of the enemy within a typical game round.

Yet, as I have suggested, allowing a submarine to spawn underwater anywhere they would like on the map, within reason of course, is a solution to this problem. Now it's not controlled by the developers if you are able to get into attack range within the game round or not, it's the players responsibility to pick a spawn location that will allow them to attack, not the developers.

If a player plays a whole round and they don't get into attack range, they won't really have anyone else to blame but themselves. Better players will pick better vantage points, and will get to attack warships more often. This will also make it very fun for destroyer captions as they will never be %100 sure where the enemy will attack from.
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