QuarterNinjaCM

International Aircraft Tree - Let's Build It

I used a ( year of first flight / year of introduction ) syntax for the Dutch aircraft, if the aircraft never made it into service due to the war it would be listed as the Fokker D.XXIII for example with ( year of introduction / ).

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I am currently at home and do not have access to a wonderful RCAF manual not available for sign-out from the local library, but here goes with a new Canadian Tier 20 (Era 5) aircraft.

 

Many people know that Canada used Sabres. The mk1-4 sabres were mostly identical with some structural improvements, however the Mk 5 was quite a bit different. 

 

First off, it used Orenda 10 engines, giving it better rate of climb and top speed than the Sabre. They modified the wings, giving it greater maneuverability but worse low-speed handing and a higher stall speed. Canada built 370 mk5 Sabres. It had the 5x.50 cal mk3 Machine guns. Introduction 1953

sabre_ph3.jpg

Sabre_1.jpg

 

Sadly, the mk6 is out of timeline by a year. (1954)

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Can you provide a bit more detail on the Mk5's service introduction? The actual date is significant (not the whole of 1953 is allowed for example) and for the sake of completeness listing which squadron got them at that date would be highly appreciated ;)

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You will not believe this, 3 days after armistice it went in service. (I believe) Some kind of exception of 3 days could be made. 3 days is so inconsequential. If it is first flight, I do not know. The wording is somewhat vague. 

 

I learned also that the sabre mk.2 also had a Canadian engine with similar performance to the first model F86, slightly more thrust, weight and drag (body modification) in it. 

 

I have more info also on the sabre mk5. It was fitted with a so called "6-3" wing. This new wing and engine gave it the aerodynamics of the F86-F30 but with better engine power. For example

 

The F86 F40 had 5,910lbf as non wep power. The Sabre mk5 had the 6355 lb.s.t. Orenda 10. It got to 40,000 feet in 9 minutes, half the time of the Mk2 sabre (F86E type). 

 

However, as said in previous post, it had bad low-speed stability and stalled at a higher speed. It also had 20% less range than the mk2 (Important in HB)

 

I do not have squadrons but RCAF serials. 23001 to 23370

Edited by PanzerAce
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Polish had a 20 Fokker F.VII in bomber variant- 1 or 4 mg and 1500 kg bombs.

 

By wikipedia.

W lutym 1928 roku Polska zakupiła licencję na budowę samolotów Fokker F.VIIB/3m, które miały być produkowane w Zakładach Mechanicznych Plage & Laśkiewicz w Lublinie. Pod koniec 1928 roku, po otrzymaniu dokumentacji licencyjnej, w biurze konstrukcyjnym wytwórni w Lublinie opracowano pod kierownictwem inż. Jerzego Rudlickiego odmianę bombową samolotu Fokker F.VIIB/3m. Różniła się ona od pasażerskiej głównie tym, że zmniejszono liczbę okien w kadłubie oraz wprowadzono uzbrojenie składające się z 1 karabinu maszynowego na obrotnicy na grzbiecie kadłuba (według niektórych danych, 4 km-ów, w tym jednego nieruchomego zsynchronizowanego dla pilota, dwóch na grzbiecie i jednego ruchomego strzelającego przez otwór w dole kadłuba). Ładunek bomb mógł wynosić 1000 – 1500 kg, z tego lżejsze bomby umieszczano na wyrzutnikach pionowych wewnątrz kadłuba, a cięższe na zaczepach pod kadłubem.

W 1929 roku w Zakładach Plage & Laśkiewicz wyprodukowano ogółem 20 samolotów Fokker F-VIIB/3m w wersji bombowej i 11 w wersji pasażerskiej z tego jeden w 1930. Zakłady zaoferowały ponadto produkcję odmiany wodnosamolotu torpedowego, na podwoziu pływakowym, uzbrojonego w torpedę lotniczą o masie 800 kg, podwieszaną pod kadłubem na wyrzutniku konstrukcji inż. W. Świąteckiego, lecz Marynarka Wojenna nie zamówiła tej wersji.

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There is no way in hell that the F.VII could carry such a heavy payload (1500kg).

 

The Polish used a F.VIIb/3m as the basis for their bombers. This variant could hold maximally 8 passengers, let us assume that the average weight of a passenger is 80kg, that means that the total 'load' this aircraft could carry (besides the pilot and co-pilot) would be 640kg. You also claim that it could carry between 1 to 4 machine guns, these would have a dramatic effect on the maximum payload considering that a machine gun requires an operator.... A bomb load of around 250 kg sounds a lot more 'plausible'.

 

I will want to see proper documentation for your claim if you want me to take back my words.

 

PS: The F.VII is also way out of the time frame (early 1920's)

Edited by Tarskin
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1500kg seems to be to much for it.

 

In my very old book about Polish bombers (1981) I found a 1000kg. And on some site in Internet I found, that with 1000kg it was difficult to take off.

 

Still, it's may be very low tier bomber. It looks nice.

 

fokker_f_viib_3m___bomber_by_dugazm-d34h

Source: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Fokker-F-VIIB-3m-bomber-188929146

 

Also some Fokkers were rebuilt to bombers during Spanish civil war. 

Edited by Botan
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I still claim that's way too high when comparing it to what the aircraft was capable of as an actual passenger liner.

 

The engines were not changed, correct?

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Engines :Wright Whirlwind J5B, 3 x 162 kW (3 x 220 KM)

Plane weight - 2600 kg, total weight - 4500kg. - that's from old book which I have

 

Here are data from one Internet site, which give bibliography, so later it will be possible to check those claims.

 

 

Napęd- 3 silniki gwiazdowe Wright ”Whirlwind”J5Ab o mocy nominalnej 162 kW (220 KM) i mocy startowej (take off power) 176 kW (240 KM)  każdy. Niektóre otrzymały później silniki (some got later) Pratt & Whitney ”Wasp Junior TB” o mocy nominalnej 294 kW (400 KM) i mocy startowej 309 kW (420 KM) każdy.

 

Dane techniczne F-VII B/3m z silnikami Wright ”Whirlwind”, w nawiasach z silnikami Pratt-Whitney ”Wasp Junior TB” (wg [2]): ( Wasp Junior TB in bracket)
Masa własna (plane weight) - 3045 (3350) kg, masa użyteczna- (usable weight) 1955 (2150) kg, masa całkowita (total weight)- 5000 (5500) kg.
Prędkość max- (maximum speed) 172 (200) km/h, prędkość przelotowa- 150 (185) km/h, prędkość minimalna- 95 (110) km/h, wznoszenie- 2,5 m/s, pułap (maximum altitude)- 2930 (4000) m, zasięg (range)- 900 (900) km.

 

Edit: KM = hp

 

Dunno if my half translation is correct,

Edited by Botan
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Good, I can make my point with those numbers.

 

The F.VIIb/3m has a grand total of 660 hp available (3 x 220 hp) and according to you two (I'm using the you form for sake of easyness) it could carry either 1.000 or 1.500 kg of bombs,

The B-25J has a grand total of 3.400 hp available (2 x 1.700 hp) would carry around 1.500 kg of bombs.

 

Both aircraft have nearly identical wing area (21.7m wingspan for F.VII and 20.6m for B-25J)

 

I think that alone is enough to call 'bs' on those numbers, as I said a payload of 500 kg is most likely more realistic (this uses the estimated 640kg of total weight carried as a passenger liner and leaves a bit of room for 1 top gunner + machine gun + bomb rack mechanism).

 

---

Summary:

 

The performance of the aircraft beyond it's weaponry, with a cruising speed of ~ 170 kph and absolute top speed of ~ 200 kph, coupled with the fact that the F.VII makes a Po-2 look modern mean that this aircraft has absolutely no place in WT (imo).

Edited by Tarskin
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I forgot, Polish KM mean English hp

 

I don't know, if 1000kg bomb load figure is for first or modernised version of bomber.

 

I compared maximum take off weight/horse power ratio.

F.VIIb/3: 5000kg/660hp = 7,58 kg/hp

B-25J: 15,910kg/3400hp = 4,68 kg/hp

 

 

Modernised looks that

5500kg/1200hp = 4,58

 

 

Yeah, it looks bad. Maybe it was possible to put so many bombs, but it would fly like Yer-2 with 5000kg or like Ju87 with 1000kg. Barely fly. Anyway, I just copied data. We have to take into consideration, that B-25 have more crew, much more guns, and armour, and it's parameters are much better in every aspect. 

 

Anyway, look at those, it's a civilian plane, from wiki:

  • Empty weight: 6,725 lb (3,050 kg)
  • Loaded weight: 11,570 lb (5,200 kg)

Difference is 2000kg. So with 1000kg bombs, we have 1000kg for guns, people and fuel, etc.

 

Anyway:

civil one: 5200kg/660hp = 7,88 kg/hp

 

average weight of a passenger is 80kg

 

 

Yeah, but also extra sits, luggage, and other things needed for them. (had civil one toilet maybe?) The question is, what was kicked out from civil plane.

Edited by Botan
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Those early airlines (like the F.VII) had no a single toilet, luggage was extremely limited (mostly to just overhead luggage), considering all that 80 kg is a good estimate I would say. You might increase it to 90 kg a person making it 720 kg total load (maximally), but then you add a gunner, bomb rack, machine gun(s) and all other things, taking it back down to around the 500-600 kg range.

 

I am going to stick with my 500 kg under normal conditions, maybe it could have had more (750 sure, 1000 I still doubt considering the extra stuff slapped on for militarization) but that would be extreme overload (which should not be included in this game).

 

A 'model' of the F.VII interior can be seen here.

 

PS: I have to admit that I had not expected that it could carry that much (~500 kg under 'normal' conditions is quite impressive for a 1923 aircraft).

Edited by Tarskin
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The problem is, that I do not know, if 1000kg is just for second version?

 

Version with modernized engines have almost doubled power than original, however usable weight increased only by 200kg.

 

If TB-3M-17 is going to be added in future, modernised Fokker also can.

Edited by Botan
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I have found four Canadian-Only built hurricane types.

Two are unique enough for their own spots in the tree.

They both have the same 1300 horse engines 

Hurricane Mk X : 8x303 machine guns

Hurricane Mk XII(A)

There could be up-gradable guns on this hurricane, the Early, and Late models with  12x.303 and 4x20mm Hispano cannons (unsure what mark)

The first hurricane could era one, the 2nd era two. 

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Version with modernized engines have almost doubled power than original, however usable weight increased only by 200kg.

 

If TB-3M-17 is going to be added in future, modernised Fokker also can.

 

The structure most likely could not cope with the added structural stress, do not forget that it's basically a WW1 airframe, made of plywood, fabric and steel tubing. I think I have missed the part about upgraded engines? The F.VIIb/3m that the Polish license build had the 3 x 220hp Wright J-5 Whirlwinds to my knowledge.

 

The 'first' TB-3M is still a lot more modern than the 'modernised' F.VII. The first TB-3M's entered service in 32 while the last F.VII was produced in 32.

 

There is only one way to answer this issue and that is to find original wartime documentation about the polish F.VII bomber variants...

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Hungarian "WM–23 Ezüst Nyíl" Wm 23 Silver Arrow

 

73_1.jpg73_1_a1.jpg

Specification    WEIGHTS     Empty weight 3290 kg 7253 lb  DIMENSIONS     Wingspan 10.60 m 35 ft 9 in     Length 10.80 m 35 ft 5 in     Height 3.55 m 12 ft 8 in     Wing area 23.50 m2 252.95 sq ft  PERFORMANCE     Max. speed 530 km/h 329 mph

 

Following the termination of plans for the aircraft division of the Weiss Manfred concern to build the Heinkel He 112 single-seat fighter under licence, the division's chief designer, Bela Samu, initiated work on an indigenous fighter. Designated WM-23 and named Ezustnyil (Silver Arrow), the fighter's design was launched in July 1940, and owed much to the He 112. The wing section and planform of the He 112 were retained, together with the camber-changing Fowler flaps and Heinkel's use of anhedral to reduce undercarriage height, but metal gave place to wooden construction. The plywood-covered wooden wings were mated with a welded steel-tube fuselage, also primarily plywood covered, and a WM-K-14B (licence-built Gnome-Rhone 14Kfrs Mistral Major) 14-cylinder radial engine of 1000hp. The proposed armament comprised two 7.62mm Gebaur machine guns in the wings and two synchronised 20mm MG 151 cannon in the fuselage.

The prototype WM-23 was flown for the first time in September 1941, and demonstrated good flying characteristics, but suffered intermittent aileron oscillation, and, in the late spring of 1942, the starboard aileron detached in a climb, forcing the pilot to abandon the aircraft.

Plans had meanwhile reached an advanced stage for the all-metal Ezustnyil II with a monocoque fuselage and a DB 605 engine. However, this programme was eventually discontinued with the decision that Weiss Manfred would build the Messerschmitt Bf 109G under licence.

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The structure most likely could not cope with the added structural stress, do not forget that it's basically a WW1 airframe, made of plywood, fabric and steel tubing. I think I have missed the part about upgraded engines? The F.VIIb/3m that the Polish license build had the 3 x 220hp Wright J-5 Whirlwinds to my knowledge.

 

The 'first' TB-3M is still a lot more modern than the 'modernised' F.VII. The first TB-3M's entered service in 32 while the last F.VII was produced in 32.

 

There is only one way to answer this issue and that is to find original prewar documentation about the polish F.VII bomber variants...

 

Yes, you missed ;)

 

Some got later Pratt & Whitney ”Wasp Junior TB” -  294 kW (400 hp) each and take off power 309 kW (420 hp) each.

 

 

I agree about documentation. When I find time I will look deeper for it. I made a quick look on digitalised documents in Polish Aviaton Museum in Kraków, but there were no  Fokker, maybe I didn't noticed it. 

Edited by Botan
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Hmm, A variant with ~1.200 hp could be a 'reasonable' addition. We'd just need some documented proof for the engine upgrade, weaponry and other changes applied to the aircraft.

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Botan, u are better in english, on this site http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/1038/126/Fokker-F-VII2 are a polish source . If they are a true, a bomber could take a 1000kg bomb even with 660 hp. But had a less range (1200 vs 900 km). Mayby here we have a answer- less fuel, more bombs. Without 1/4 fuel he could took a 1000kg bombs. Like Stukas without gunner.

 

And B-25 had a less wingspan 56.7m2 vs 67,6 m2 in Fokker F.VII

Edited by Hrothgar

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Botan, u are better in english, on this site http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/1038/126/Fokker-F-VII2 are a polish source . If they are a true, a bomber could take a 1000kg bomb even with 660 hp. But had a less range (1200 vs 900 km). Mayby here we have a answer- less fuel, more bombs. Without 1/4 fuel he could took a 1000kg bombs. Like Stukas without gunner.

 

Yes, I know about this site, now I have to to get those books, or original manual

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You could try checking for them on Scribd?

 

I found that most of the older English language books referring to Dutch aircraft were there, the only problem I have is with a book regarding 'Koolhoven' and the newer D.XXI, G.I and D.XXIII books (2012/2013).

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You can add the Fokker F.VIIb/3m (provisionally) as a bomber. I assume Botan will be able to dig up something.

Edited by Tarskin
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Aero S-102 and WSK Lim-1 - Czechoslovak and Polish fighters build under Mig-15 licence.

 

Aero S-102 - 821 build 1951-1954

 

WSK Lim-1 - 227 build 1952-1954

 

2340036.jpg

Edited by Blackart
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