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post war fleet balance issue

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-10 Tu-4s comes... 10 seconds later US fleet is gone-

 

You do realize how hard it would be for a strategic bomber to hit a ship right? That's why it was virtually eliminated as a tactic very quickly after it was tried. 

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I think the Iowa can beat the Yamato in a fight if they fight on the Iowa's terms, which would be in poor visibility, at night, or both.

 

In a 1vs1 fight on a clear day the Yamato would win.

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Montana was not even COMMISSIONED, why would you expect it to be implemented? Iowa is enough, besides, Yamato/Musashi's size you make it vulnerable to planes and other ships.

 

Correct Montana was not even commissioned but unlike planes normally if a ship begins construction there is more then enough data known about its expected performance. 

 

So tell me why Iowa is enough?

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How will Britain's best BB stand up to the Yamato?

 

That will be HMS Vanguard. It will still run into issues against the Yamato. Its armor and protection is better then the Iowa's (still less the Yamato) but its firepower and penetration is quite a bit less. The Vanguard has basically all the same fire control systems (possibly better depending on who you talk to) as the Iowa. The Vanguard's AA is similar to the Iowa's, it has less AA guns but individually they tended to perform better. 

 

Britain has a bit of an issue in that although it will absolutely dominate the early tree depending on when the game starts it is lacking in end game components. The only British ships which i can find that will compete with the Yamato are the N3 series which were ordered in the early 20's but cancelled with the Washington Naval treaty. They were 18" gunned and heaviliy armored monsters able to give all of the modern WW2 battleships quite some trouble in a conventional fight but as ships from that time they are lacking in AA and speed. But that would quite cross the line with the paper designs...

Edited by Crag_r
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Oh my god that thread was hilarious. 

 

Don't worry, im not asking you to go quite as far as what General_Sultan is saying, but their is some reasoning behind my doubts over the Iowa.

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Don't worry, im not asking you to go quite as far as what General_Sultan is saying, but their is some reasoning behind my doubts over the Iowa.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it were mostly propaganda. But on the other end, I don't really trust that the weak Japanese industry could produce the best Battleship of its time. 

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Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it were mostly propaganda. But on the other end, I don't really trust that the weak Japanese industry could produce the best Battleship of its time. 

 

Its hard to believe but they did. Well keeping in mind that they were built at a time when the Japanese industry was still relatively quite strong.

 

Remembering that the two other world power navies (UK,US) were making a huge shift over to carrier production at the time, with the US making the best fleet carriers and the UK been quite tied down with fighting the Italians and escort ship production to fight subs. Germany was too focused on building the said subs as to produce their H series battleships and Russia was simply lacking the industrial potential to fight the Germans on land and build battleships. Italy was knocked out of the war before they could think of further battleship designs.

Edited by Crag_r
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Well, if it was then I'd actually be happy at that revelation. I'm a very pro-art kind of person and a cultural icon like the Yamato actually BEING the best Battleship of its day would kind of warm my heart. 

 

I guess the Iowa (or, more accurately, the Missouri) would also be a cultural icon but not to the same extent.

 

I can't provide sources, unfortunately. So trust me when I say that I am biased the other way and I still doubt the Yamato's status as the best battleship for its time.

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You do realize how hard it would be for a strategic bomber to hit a ship right? That's why it was virtually eliminated as a tactic very quickly after it was tried. 

That was a joke.

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Correct Montana was not even commissioned but unlike planes normally if a ship begins construction there is more then enough data known about its expected performance. 

 

So tell me why Iowa is enough?

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

It states that In terms of underwater protection and armament the two are practically matched, but Yamato's fire control was beyond bad. Iowa is slightly behind in armour. Chances are, Gaijin probably will not make fire control affect gameplay which is unfortunate. Anyways, if Iowa cannot stand up to Yamato, there is still a solution:destroyers. Destroyers can utilize their speed to dodge shots and use torpedoes to sink a battleship. A ship such as Yamato will have difficult time evading the torpedoes to say the least. The real problem is with Germany, Bismarck was German's best BB, but it had absolutely terrible armour, fire control and underwater protection. Bismarck's fame comes from the fact it 1 shotted Hood.

Edited by Strasbourg
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http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

It states that In terms of underwater protection and armament the two are practically matched, but Yamato's fire control was beyond bad. Iowa is slightly behind in armour. Chances are, Gaijin probably will not make fire control affect gameplay which is unfortunate. Anyways, if Iowa cannot stand up to Yamato, there is still a solution:destroyers. Destroyers can utilize their speed to dodge shots and use torpedoes to sink a battleship. A ship such as Yamato will have difficult time evading the torpedoes to say the least. The real problem is with Germany, Bismarck was German's best BB, but it had absolutely terrible armour, fire control and underwater protection. Bismarck's fame comes from the fact it 1 shotted Hood.

And that's only because Battlecruisers had ammo racks more fragile than the T-44 pre-buff. 

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http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

It states that In terms of underwater protection and armament the two are practically matched, but Yamato's fire control was beyond bad. Iowa is slightly behind in armour. Chances are, Gaijin probably will not make fire control affect gameplay which is unfortunate. Anyways, if Iowa cannot stand up to Yamato, there is still a solution:destroyers. Destroyers can utilize their speed to dodge shots and use torpedoes to sink a battleship. A ship such as Yamato will have difficult time evading the torpedoes to say the least. The real problem is with Germany, Bismarck was German's best BB, but it had absolutely terrible armour, fire control and underwater protection. Bismarck's fame comes from the fact it 1 shotted Hood.

 

Honestly take those comparison values with a grain of salt.

 

In regards to the armor systems the Iowa's never had it put to the test but i think that the Musashi taking 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs is a testament to just how good it was. Though yes it was not efficient as it could be for its weight it was still by far better then anything else. If you look at this breakdowns by sheer numbers and values alone the Yamato easily has this one in the bag, hes comparison fugues seem to not reflect that.

 

In regards to fire control if you look at the detailed info he gives Japanese optical fire control systems a very high rating http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_fire.htm and its let down by radar systems. Remembering that on optics on a normal day you are going to be able to see about as far as you can shoot. This demonstrated by Yamato straddling and damaging the USS White plains at 33,000 yards or so.

 

Destroyers are going to be about as useful killing the Yamato as they are when killing the Iowa... just the Iowa cannot take as much of a hit as the Yamato. though keeping in mind that. If we look at destroyers themselves the Japanese have this one with some remarkable classes such as the Shimakaze going at 39 knots and carrying 15 torpedo tubes. With something like the 45 knot French destroyer Le Fantasque of notable mention. US and British destroyers were themselves quite good but more general purpose and suited to engaging aircraft and escorting larger ships. Though some of the Fletcher's and John C. Butler class with taffy 3 off samar are of notable mention.

 

To be fair quite a few have issues. Bismarck won't be a match for Vanguard or Iowa so Germany will need designs. Their best bet is with the H series though they still have horrifically poor AA. Not too mention Germanies carriers are going to be an issue, with only a single (almost) functioning pre war Graf Zeppelin class, they had some designs but it will be almost the whole carrier tree as paper designs if they do and at best they have a Bf-109T and Stuka for their fighters. Italy though having some good battleships fall into the same problems as Germany has but with a slightly better battleships. The Royal Navy has the same issues battleship wise as the US, though their carriers have less aircraft they are much better protected and have some better aircraft for gameplay. The Russians... lets put it this way; no real innovation or actual ships of mention after the first world war. They have the Soyetz battleship which was the best armored but was quite lacking in every single other department. They have no carriers in the games time; designs or actual ships.

 

Bismarck beat hood? Duh 1916 battecruiser vs WW2 Battleship.,.

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Give N3 and G3 glass please;_;

 

Curse those pesky treaties  :(s

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I read that the Yamato was the most powerful battleship only "at paper". Radar and visual rangefinger were worse that US construction. Iowa is enough then. And no Montana were built boys.

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I think we've had this debate pretty well had out by now. To think the Iowa had a clear advantage is simply false. The longest hits recorded in naval history by big guns is well short of the type of engagement ranges that would give the Iowa the clear advantage. The Yamato's FCS system was the best optical system ever built, but both of the longest recorded hits where by ships with radar FCS.

The Yamato would win on a normal clear pacific day, and the Iowa could hope to win at night or in poor visibility where its radar FCS would be a clear benefactor.

The Montana's would be the only USN ship able to go toe to toe with Yamato on a clear pacific day. I think the Montana would win that simply because she could put more rounds on target and had similar armor.

The Iowas best bet against the Yamato would be to use her superior speed to disengage or force a night battle.
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No they wouldn't, most of what you read on the two is actually allot of US propaganda on the issue.

 

Performance wise the Yamato enjoys a much larger immunity zone then what the Iowa gets, Yamato has far thicker armor in every case, Speed difference is negligible, the 18.1" APC and the 16" Mk.8 shells share quite similar values. Any one who dismisses the Yamato FCS fails to take into account that the Yamato holds the longest range gunnery "damage" (not hit) on the USS white plains. Japan actually had excellent optical based FCS throughout the war and and towards the end some quite decent radar systems, the only chance the US has with the Iowa alone is blind shooting on night or poor vis maps, not something that is to be relied upon.

 

Montana on the other-hand brings in some much needed armor upgrades as well as additional firepower to give the US some chance at a decent immunity zone against Yamato's, otherwise the term "hot knife though butter" comes to mind.

 

If you want info look here on the US vs Japan i would look here http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/49162-how-are-you-against-an-iowancsodak-class-battleship-with-radarcomputer-guided-guns/

 

To give you an idea even WG is not having Iowa's on the top teir the Yamato in WoWS....

 

I will take a US BB squadron vs IJN BB squadron Every.  Time. 

 

Why?

 

Leadership and numbers beat dumb brute force all day, every day.

 

Video games usually pander to unrealistic 1v1 stat-fests.

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I think we've had this debate pretty well had out by now. To think the Iowa had a clear advantage is simply false. The longest hits recorded in naval history by big guns is well short of the type of engagement ranges that would give the Iowa the clear advantage. The Yamato's FCS system was the best optical system ever built, but both of the longest recorded hits where by ships with radar FCS.

The Yamato would win on a normal clear pacific day, and the Iowa could hope to win at night or in poor visibility where its radar FCS would be a clear benefactor.

The Montana's would be the only USN ship able to go toe to toe with Yamato on a clear pacific day. I think the Montana would win that simply because she could put more rounds on target and had similar armor.

The Iowas best bet against the Yamato would be to use her superior speed to disengage or force a night battle.

 

Never compare ship to ship when they fight task force vs. task force.

 

There were only 2 Yamatos (battleships, not counting 1 converted to CV) and multiple classes of USN modern 16" fast BB's. 

 

Kurita's TF retreated from a task force of escort carriers and DE's....

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Never compare ship to ship when they fight task force vs. task force.

 

There were only 2 Yamatos (battleships, not counting 1 converted to CV) and multiple classes of USN modern 16" fast BB's. 

 

Kurita's TF retreated from a task force of escort carriers and DE's....

 

Its all well and good to say that the US would win for numbers which was correct (at least in the later parts of the war). But when it comes to the game with BR and equal numbers ships we run into issues...

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Its all well and good to say that the US would win for numbers which was correct (at least in the later parts of the war). But when it comes to the game with BR and equal numbers ships we run into issues...

 

Well it's unfair to say the Yamato was blatantly superior just because game mechanics force us into unrealistic, ahistorical scenarios, isn't it?

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How they balance fleets is going to be interesting.

 

Thing is the Yamato may have been the best WW2 battleship, but ultimately it was ineffective only using her main guns against other ships once and was sunk by aircraft.

 

A ship weighing 65,000 tons was lost with over 3000 lives lost as well against just 12 US aircraft lost. 

 

That illustrates perfectly why the US and Britain were building aircraft carriers not battleships, they were both capable of building ships that would have easily rivalled the Yamato but they had no need. 

Edited by tajj
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