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Me 262 Under performing

They weren't some rare wunderwaffe weapon. There was at least 1 entire squadron dedicated to operating the Me-262.

 

They also weren't deployed in single digit numbers. 200 Me-262's were operating and flying combat missions at any one time during it's year of service, which is more than Allied jets of WWII can show for...

Yes, but you don't see 200 Me262's attacking a b17 formation do you?

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Show me some info to support the claims of P51's or Tempests keeping up with a 262 in a dive.

 

P-51's couldn't dream of it, they would break up before the Me-262. Or the 262 pilot could drag the 51 into a sharp dive, then pull out of it neatly and easily while the P-51 wrestled with severe compression. Though the Tempest might very well have been able to at low altitudes, while the Me-262 was trying to get past the 700kph mark. Once the 262 got going however, those engines would easily push it faster than the Tempest could hope to go.

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ME262 was difficult to fly.

How so? In terms of how to apply its advantages in combat? Many German pilots found the Me-262 quite easy to fly. Easier than Bf-109's.

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How so? In terms of how to apply its advantages in combat? Many German pilots found the Me-262 quite easy to fly. Easier than Bf-109's.

 

I think he means in combat. The Me-262 went so fast that pilots found it difficult to adjust to the drastically lower times for lining up shots. Some pilots even doubted the effectiveness of jets because of exactly how difficult it was for them to score kills in the early months.

 

If it were me, I would have put 4x MG151/20's in the nose, with MUCH higher ammo loads. Not only would it have shredded fighters, but bombers would have been dead meat too through sheer volume of fire. It would have also allowed much greater firing distances, and made the transition to such a high speed aircraft much easier for pilots.

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What they also needed besides longer-range guns were air brakes. It would have doubled their targeting and shooting time. It was said that once they were in effective range of the Mk-108 cannon, they had about 2 seconds to line up a shot and fire when making an attack on bombers.

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What they also needed besides longer-range guns were air brakes. It would have doubled their targeting and shooting time. It was said that once they were in effective range of the Mk-108 cannon, they had about 2 seconds to line up a shot and fire when making an attack on bombers.

 

Imagine:

 

Airbrakes and quad MG151/20's with 300+ rpg.

 

 

That's a scary thought.

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Imagine:

 

Airbrakes and quad MG151/20's with 300+ rpg.

 

 

That's a scary thought.

The newer 262 variants in development were going to have the new MG-213 20mm and Mk-213 30mm rotary cannons. Higher velocity and MUCH higher rate of fire. Yeah.

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The newer 262 variants in development were going to have the new MG-213 20mm and Mk-213 30mm rotary cannons. Higher velocity and MUCH higher rate of fire. Yeah.

 

1000+ RPM and 1000m/s velocities for both IIRC.

 

Very powerful weapons, which I'm looking forward to in the HG series.

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Show me some info to support the claims of P51's or Tempests keeping up with a 262 in a dive.

 

309 and 306 RAF squadrons .

 

Data source: Pilots combat reports. 

When: 9 April 1942, bomber raid over Hamburg.

Escort planes: North American Mustangs P-51 Mk III

 

(the text is the translation from original text pasted in to retarded Google translator + some fixes from my side like series ~ burst)

 

 

Pilot: Mieczyslaw Gorzula

 

" (..) Barely flew away from the target when the handset headphone hear :
 
- Hello, escort leader ! Hello, escort leader ! Here bomber leader , some about jet job . Over !
 
I've anxiously penetrated the space in front of me , to the sides and rear. The formation of bombers fired green flares - one , two, three .
 
Oh! Germans are in the air and attacking! Orders appeared one after the other: drop tanks! Then, about a mile and a half, I noticed six aircraft that dived at the bomber formation from the altitude advantage. I've strangled the Mustang , I increased the engine speed boost and ordered my squadron to head toward the attackers. When the distance between us has decreased, I recognized the German jets , twin-engined Me-262s.
 
After the attack the Germans began to squirm. One of them , perhaps intoxicated by victory, because one of the bombers got some smoke and descend to the ground - separated from their formation and also began to descend ...
 
More speed and more boost and I'm almost at him, at his back and top. Speedometer indicator has already exceeded 500 miles, and the distance between us has decreased to 1,000 yards. Mustang was trembling all over, his engine howled at full speed. I need to get closer - I thought - even closer, but it 's so hard, because this jet was very fast. I felt that he run away if I won't manage now to a distance shot ...
 
I pulled the stick a bit up and pushed Boost up to the end of the lever to extract all of the Mustang, who already begged off...
 
I put the adjustment carefully and gave the first burst, then the second ... German pilot slightly reduced the speed rate. Then I've slammed the third burst ... I noticed an explosion in the hull jet and powerful flash. Immediately after, the hull as if it was cut off, pulled away, and the pilot tried to jump of the plane but the engine and cabin collapsed into a tailspin .
 
The pilot tried to save himself with a parachute . Figure it loomed just off -wing . He had run a parachute , but at that moment the parachute caught flames . (...) "
 
 
Pilot: Antoni Murowski
 
"(...) I was a lead of section in the blue key. On the way back from the target we met a group of bombers, we were at an altitude of over 6,000 meters. After the turn I noticed at the bottom of about a thousand feet eight jet fighters - Those were German Me-262s. Immediately I dropped both suspended tanks and dove toward the Germans trying to stealthy attack the bombers from below. At the same time I've informed (by radio signals) about it my fellow pilots.
 
I attacked the closer one, which I did not notice until I approached him at a distance of about 600 meters. Then German pilot swung sharply to the left. I gave him a fire at an angle of 90 degrees, decreasing to 40 degrees, finished firing line of the tail. The right wing fell off from Me-262, the plane go corkscrew and fell like a stone, down to earth.
 
Right after I pulled up and approached the bombers. I noticed the next two Me-262s. This time I opened fire from about 600 yards. I found a hit in the area of chassis and tail, but he flew away and escaped in dive. I saw the attack of Pilot Captain Mencel on the another Me-262, which hit, ME nose-dived into the ground at an angle of about 60 degrees, hit the ground and exploded.
 
Report: One Me-262 shoot down and one Me-262 damaged. (...)"
 
 
Pilot: Jerzy Mencel
 
"(...) In command of yellow key in 309 Squadron. While on the way back from the right side of bombers, I noticed a Me-262 some eight meters above bombers who attacked the rear of the top, then the bottom left. I've dived through an array of Lancasters and attacked enemy jet. He noticed me, made ​​a deep bend to the left, then to the right and began to dive. I was already on his tail in approximately 600 meters, I opened fire at him and chased him from a height of 5000 to 2000 meters, constantly shooting. Last burst resulted in dark smoke from ME262 hull, the pilot rolled the plane on his back and fell to the ground. Sergeant Murkowski assisted me and has seen the end of damaged Messerschmitt.
 
I submit Me-262 shot down. (...)"
 
 
Pilot: Jozef Zulikowski
 
"(...) I came at him from the side and with the altitude advantage just after he ended his attack on Lancasters and just turned in to my direction. He hid not see me. I had to act quickly! German pilot hesitated for a short moment, as if he did not know what to do. I took a quick aim and slammed him with a machine guns from a distance of more less 500 meters, my burst ended at about 200 meters. All the action was swift, done at the maximum speed of the Mustang. I felt it all the time on the stick, the plane was shaking  every time I opened machine-gun fire. After this burst German began to bleed the black thread of smoke. German pilot curled up and fell almost vertically downwards. I've circled, cut off at the speed of the Mustang. I was afraid that the wings simply fall off ... then dilated eyes, searching for my prey. Suddenly, I noticed on the ground explosion like those that I often watched when the plane crash to the ground ... (..)"
 
 
And as a bonus - one of the Mustangs from this action (from the markings I bet it's 306 squadron).
D_ski115s.jpg
 
 
Guys, If you have any other reports (from both sides) it would be extremely awesome if you can share them.
It's very exciting to read about those fights.
 
Cheers, Agent.

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Yes, but you don't see 200 Me262's attacking a b17 formation do you?

 

You don't see 500 P-51s guarding a b17 formation do you?

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You don't see 500 P-51s guarding a b17 formation do you?

Correction: You don't see P-51s guarding B17s at all.

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What they also needed besides longer-range guns were air brakes. It would have doubled their targeting and shooting time. It was said that once they were in effective range of the Mk-108 cannon, they had about 2 seconds to line up a shot and fire when making an attack on bombers.

NEIN NEIN NEIN

 

Me262 had shit acceleration so using air brakes it would render it way to vulnerable to allied escorts. Also such systems are heavy and detrimental to the aircraft's performance. Germans did the best they could with the fighter and had the intelligence to put only the best fighter pilots in them till Hitler said "kk guyz i have l33t idée, let's put Bà0mbs on dis thing nuting will ev3r ktch it n londern will be bà0mberd to herl". 

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They weren't some rare wunderwaffe weapon. There was at least 1 entire squadron dedicated to operating the Me-262.

 

They also weren't deployed in single digit numbers. 200 Me-262's were operating and flying combat missions at any one time during it's year of service, which is more than Allied jets of WWII can show for...

Not too sure about the details here.  Only about 20% of the production number ever seen combat.  Most were destroyed on the ground and the were not enough parts or pilots.  So, I am not too sure what your point is with regard to the amount of allied jets.  It doesn't matter.  You can have 1400 jets, but when only about 300 get into the air, and of those 300, most didn't return because the plane was a mechanical mess, what difference does it make because the jet couldn't complete the mission it was designed to do.  The German's fielded all the jets they could, but the Allies fielded more bombers and escorts and bombed Germany back into the stone age.  

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Not too sure about the details here.  Only about 20% of the production number ever seen combat.  Most were destroyed on the ground and the were not enough parts or pilots.  So, I am not too sure what your point is with regard to the amount of allied jets.  It doesn't matter.  You can have 1400 jets, but when only about 300 get into the air, and of those 300, most didn't return because the plane was a mechanical mess, what difference does it make because the jet couldn't complete the mission it was designed to do.  The German's fielded all the jets they could, but the Allies fielded more bombers and escorts and bombed Germany back into the stone age.  

well if we're going into macro analysis hitler probably lost the war when he invaded germany while the UK wasn't occupied yet and by also neglecting to plan for a long term campaign. germany couldn't sustain a war on two fronts for that long. 

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well if we're going into macro analysis hitler probably lost the war when he invaded germany while the UK wasn't occupied yet and by also neglecting to plan for a long term campaign. germany couldn't sustain a war on two fronts for that long. 

We could, but I think Hitler invaded Russia, not Germany,  :Ps   However, one could say the opposite, but I get your point and what you meant.  One could also say that the US and UK could have developed operational production jets early too, but none of the services ordered one and much of the big brains were working on an Atomic weapon to end the war. 

 

But we should stay on top.  Anyway, I have some manuals for the ME 262 around someplace.  I'll have to dig them out, my only problem is that I can't fly it in game.

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it should be the same tier as p51 since that would be historical correct but gajjiin hates germans

The tiering system is a mixture of Performance and firepower. That is why the Me-262 is rank 19. 

Why do you people fail to understand that the only thing that is suppose to be historically accurate is the plane's performance. 

What you just said there was "The Me-262 should seal club the P-51D or else Gaijin hates Germans." Do you understand how fucking stupid that is? Please tell me you're joking.  

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Not too sure about the details here.  Only about 20% of the production number ever seen combat.  Most were destroyed on the ground and the were not enough parts or pilots.  So, I am not too sure what your point is with regard to the amount of allied jets.  It doesn't matter.  You can have 1400 jets, but when only about 300 get into the air, and of those 300, most didn't return because the plane was a mechanical mess, what difference does it make because the jet couldn't complete the mission it was designed to do.  The German's fielded all the jets they could, but the Allies fielded more bombers and escorts and bombed Germany back into the stone age.  

 

You paint the 262 as an unreliable useless mess.

 

This is false.

 

The American pilots that had the job of flying them back and forth found it to be an absolutely wonderful aircraft. So did the German pilots, the German ground crews, the American pilots, and their ground crews. It was incredibly easy to maintain, surprisingly robust and capable of taking a beating, and you could run them on anything mildly flammable with no real reduction in performance beyond fuel consumption rates. Where a normal fighter could take 2-3 days to replace an engine, the Me-262 took 30 minutes, a wrench, and a hand cart. (I s**t you not, that's really how easy they were to replace)

 

Not to mention it could fly very well on one engine, meaning a flame-out didn't do much more than scare the piss out of the pilot. Once in the air the Me-262 quickly became a big fear for Allied pilots both bomber and escort. Since you couldn't track it with your turrets, it used the dreaded "Jackhammer" cannons (MK108), and your escorts could do exactly f**k all to it most times... I'd say it completed at least one part of its mission VERY well.

 

 

Don't go and paint the Me-262 as a useless mess. Because it was far from it. It was a rather amazing aircraft, it was just pressed into service too late and in too little numbers. Don't get me wrong though, I know it had issues, but they figured out ways around them rather well.

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You paint the 262 as an unreliable useless mess.
 
This is false.


Negative, where did I say it was unreliable? I did say it was a mechanical mess....which is very accurate.
 
 

The American pilots that had the job of flying them back and forth found it to be an absolutely wonderful aircraft. So did the German pilots, the German ground crews, the American pilots, and their ground crews. It was incredibly easy to maintain, surprisingly robust and capable of taking a beating, and you could run them on anything mildly flammable with no real reduction in performance beyond fuel consumption rates. Where a normal fighter could take 2-3 days to replace an engine, the Me-262 took 30 minutes, a wrench, and a hand cart. (I s**t you not, that's really how easy they were to replace)
 
Not to mention it could fly very well on one engine, meaning a flame-out didn't do much more than scare the piss out of the pilot. Once in the air the Me-262 quickly became a big fear for Allied pilots both bomber and escort. Since you couldn't track it with your turrets, it used the dreaded "Jackhammer" cannons (MK108), and your escorts could do exactly f**k all to it most times... I'd say it completed at least one part of its mission VERY well.
 
 
Don't go and paint the Me-262 as a useless mess. Because it was far from it. It was a rather amazing aircraft, it was just pressed into service too late and in too little numbers. Don't get me wrong though, I know it had issues, but they figured out ways around them rather well.




It was a mess, I am not painting it with anything but historical reference, when it worked, it did well.  You must have different documentation than I do.  The plane was plagued with many bugs, it had a tendency to suffer catastrophic engine failures which resulted in total loss of the aircraft.  Sure it could fly on 1 engine, but when airspeed dropped below 190 MPH, it was almost impossible to fly. What they reference to 1 engine is that it can still hang in for a few more passes before the plane had to break off and run home and this becomes problematic when the plane has to land. It is a fact that out of 1400 aircraft, only 300 ever seen combat.  The plane had ZERO impact on the war because it entered too late and in too few numbers.  Sure, if the plane entered service in 1941 it would have been a different story, but history shows us that would have never had happen with Germany's leadership, which there is doubt WW2 would have ever been fought if Germany never installed AH as their leader....so its a moot point. I noticed your reference to "you and your." Sorry to say mate, but I was not in any of the allied formations in WW2, my wars were 60 years later. I see you are using a nationalistic argument. So there is no point in me continuing this with you. I will say this, it is a fact that the Me262 was better at high speeds then anything that could be put up against it, except against the Tempest. It killed about 550 allied aircraft and was a scary sight to see for bomber crews, but the bombers kept coming and coming and were not stopped and Germany was bombed back into the stone age. It took until the 1980s for them to recover. So for you to think the plane was a great combat success, I think you are missing a giant swathe of history and your point is very limited. Most of the major problems were figured out by the Allied nations when the captured the plane, that's how Jet tech was able to advance rather quickly for the UK, US and CCCP. It was a catalyst for jet fighters, that's because it was an operational aircraft with a jet turbine and not a rocket engine. So how about you don't try and paint it as a panacea, it was far from it.

As for maintenance, it actually took about 9 hours to change because of the design flaws with it. It was passed off as a QEC, but that was not the case. Just a bit of warning, I am a rate jet engine and airframes mechanic. I have a bit of background in aviation maintenance. Even the 262s engine have to be re-rigged to the flight controls, that takes more than 30 mins. Also the Jumbo 004s had a service life of about 20 hours or operation, which is incredibly low. Much of the Jumo's problems were because of sub par materials. The compressors and combustion chambers needed to be reworked because of brittle metal that was used, couple that with high turbine inlet temps, you have a problem with performance. With the proper metals, the Jumo would have been a good engine, and when it was reproduced by the US, UK, and CCCP, it was.

Now, I am done with you, this thread has been derailed enough.

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1000+ RPM and 1000m/s velocities for both IIRC.

Very powerful weapons, which I'm looking forward to in the HG series.

I don't believe it was that good I tried doing some quick searches for it but found nothing all I found was a forum post with the German air ministry asking for a cannon that had a rpm and MV of 1000 but nothing on the gun itself in 1942
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I don't believe it was that good I tried doing some quick searches for it but found nothing all I found was a forum post with the German air ministry asking for a cannon that had a rpm and MV of 1000 but nothing on the gun itself in 1942

 

All I could find so far was this, from here: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/Secweap.htm

 

"Mauser MG 213C

This was a revolutionary design: The first revolver cannon. It used a five-chamber cylinder, with the firing split in three actions. The MG 213C was never produced in series, but after the war it inspired the American Pontiac M39, the British Aden and the French DEFA cannon. Both 20mm and 30mm versions were developed. The 20mm had a rate of fire of 1400rpm and a muzzle velocity of 1050m/s. The 30mm version fired at 1200rpm, but muzzle velocity was down to about 550m/s."

 

Tricky thing to track down I suppose, but the general details match what this says. 20mm version was pretty superior, the 30mm was just the same old "Jackhammer" but it spewed rounds oh so much faster.

 

Also, all the other stuff on that page was pretty interesting. I'll try to find more on the MG-213C though.

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All I could find so far was this, from here: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/Secweap.htm

[font='Times New Roman']"Mauser MG 213C[/font]
[font='Times New Roman']This was a revolutionary design: The first revolver cannon. It used a five-chamber cylinder, with the firing split in three actions. The MG 213C was never produced in series, but after the war it inspired the American Pontiac M39, the British Aden and the French DEFA cannon. Both 20mm and 30mm versions were developed. The 20mm had a rate of fire of 1400rpm and a muzzle velocity of 1050m/s. The 30mm version fired at 1200rpm, but muzzle velocity was down to about 550m/s."[/font]

[font=arial]Tricky thing to track down I suppose, but the general details match what this says. 20mm version was pretty superior, the 30mm was just the same old "Jackhammer" but it spewed rounds oh so much faster.[/font]

[font=arial]Also, all the other stuff on that page was pretty interesting. I'll try to find more on the MG-213C though.[/font]

Great work ill go more into depth with this once I get back home from work
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Great work ill go more into depth with this once I get back home from work

 

Another search deeper into Google has revealed these two sites with relevant information on the MG213C:

 

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-po.html

 

http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/luftarm/

 

They seem congruent with the last site, so I guess you could just average out performance numbers if need be.

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Another search deeper into Google has revealed these two sites with relevant information on the MG213C:

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-po.html

http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/luftarm/

They seem congruent with the last site, so I guess you could just average out performance numbers if need be.

From these stats these guns are amazing but that being said I see a major issue with these guns which will be ammo. German aircraft don't carry a lot of ammo when compared to us aircraft with the 50 cal standard us 50cal comes with 300 to 425 rounds per gun depending on the aircraft. This gives you a lot of ammo to play around with while German 20mms have 125-200 rounds not that much and it's even worse with the 30mm where it's worse with what 60-80 rounds (not sure don't own German aircraft with 30mm yet) the ammo is not of a problem no because German aircraft have meh fire rates but when u have 80 rounds on a cannon that has a 1200 rpm which is what 2x the firerate of mk 108 you're going to have a bad time though the 20mm is a welcome sight to me as I'm used to the 50cal and and I can't hit dick with the mg151
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