squad name issue

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,267]

for over three years i have been reporting the use of the word "stasi" as a squad name. Last night i saw the same squad name in a mission. Do you people have a history book? Do you consider "stasi" to be an acceptable name for a squad? Serious questions after better than three years i think. Maybe google it?

[Stona 72,542]

41 minutes ago, cashmeowsidehbd said:

for over three years i have been reporting the use of the word "stasi" as a squad name. Last night i saw the same squad name in a mission. Do you people have a history book? Do you consider "stasi" to be an acceptable name for a squad? Serious questions after better than three years i think. Maybe google it?

Can you point which rule, according to you, that name is breaking? 

Link to game rules

[GunValkyrieElise 219]

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Edited May 24 by GunValkyrieElise

[Batwingsix 719]

Gaijin also ignores reports on work-around names of sexual nature as well which fall under 2.1.6, and have seen a few that violate 2.1.8

 

 

[sardinha08 1,027]

42 minutes ago, GunValkyrieElise said:

2.1.8. Names of organizations recognized by national or international courts as criminal, extremist or terrorist [...]

 

The Stasi (Ministerium für Staatssicherheit) was the Eastern-German equivalent of the Służba Bezpieczeństwa. They persecuted, intimidated, imprisoned, tortured and sometimes even murdered civilians that dared to criticise their socialist government. Had they not ceased to exist shortly before the reunification of the two Germanies, they would have been banned. Ever since, German courts have undone plenty of court sentences and they have also tried to persecute Stasi members. 

 

I would say that name is at least a questionable choice in a game where political conversations are not welcome - and it's definitely meant to provoke. 

I fully agree with you, other rule may also apply here like the 2.1.2 if players feel offended by what those words represent to them. Unfortunatelly I lost the count of nicknames and clan names that break the rules and are only meant to offend or provoke other players that keep existing in the game, especially those related to racism or nationalist ideologies.

[Bruce_R1 2,108]

Don't forget NA7I, they've been around a while.

[FastGT007 4,450]

5 hours ago, Batwingsix said:

Gaijin also ignores reports on work-around names of sexual nature as well which fall under 2.1.6, and have seen a few that violate 2.1.8

Every report that is made (ingame and server replay reports) are reviewed according to our rules and if it is valid, action are taken. It is understandable that you think that the reports are useless, but they are not. Thanks to the reports made by the community, some players have been banned. So if you want to help us have a safe game, report us any content that violates the rules and we will take care of it.

 

5 hours ago, Kicimijazawa said:

Technicaly, November last year certain country was deemed a state sponsor of terrorism by EU. All the players who painted 'Z' and 'V' on their vehicles fall under 2.1.8.

report! report! report!

 

4 hours ago, Bruce_R1 said:

Don't forget NA7I, they've been around a while.

Well, do you have another tag for the Squadron name "North Army of the 7th Infantry"?

[Batwingsix 719]

27 minutes ago, FastGT007 said:

Every report that is made (ingame and server replay reports) are reviewed according to our rules and if it is valid, action are taken. It is understandable that you think that the reports are useless, but they are not. Thanks to the reports made by the community, some players have been banned. So if you want to help us have a safe game, report us any content that violates the rules and we will take care of it.

 

 

Yet there are 10+ 'WAGNER' affiliated named groups, which are named after a mercenary group tied to a certain country who is accused of war crimes, as well as having countless war crime accusations against them as well... including a former member defecting to an EU country and admitting the war crimes the group is openly committing and have been committing for a decade or more which are not limited to looting, but torture, assaults of the adult variety, more torture, murder, and the list goes on. 

 

2.1.8. Names of organizations recognized by national or international courts as criminal, extremist or terrorist

Edited March 30 by Batwingsix

[FastGT007 4,450]

29 minutes ago, Batwingsix said:

 

Yet there are 10+ 'WAGNER' affiliated named groups, which are named after a mercenary group tied to a certain country who is accused of war crimes, as well as having countless war crime accusations against them as well... including a former member defecting to an EU country and admitting the war crimes the group is openly committing and have been committing for a decade or more which are not limited to looting, but torture, assaults of the adult variety, more torture, murder, and the list goes on. 

 

2.1.8. Names of organizations recognized by national or international courts as criminal, extremist or terrorist

known, if you see one, report it

[CоmeToDaddy 3,450]

5 hours ago, FastGT007 said:

report! report! report!

Sure, been reporting loads of people using bots in Air RB, they are still flying around just fine on full auto mode. Maybe they are excluded under your rules? Kinda makes the reporting feel useless when taking the time to help you identify people using bots and report them for nothing to happen..

 

5 hours ago, FastGT007 said:

Every report that is made (ingame and server replay reports) are reviewed

So, the is feels like a bit of an overstatement to me and others who have been reporting bots only to see nothing happen

[Kicimijazawa 289]

5 hours ago, FastGT007 said:

known, if you see one, report it

I'm into databases. Like for many years. I don't think it is difficult to query squadron database for 'names of organizations recognized by national or international courts as criminal, extremist or terrorist', drop them down and ban some players for a month.

All it takes is DB specialist to query the results, five people to make a proper judgment and a week of work. You don't need reports, just do your job.

 

It's more difficult with player names, I get it. There is much more of them, than squadrons. It is still possible without reports though, but reports can help if taken seriously.

[CоmeToDaddy 3,450]

7 minutes ago, Kicimijazawa said:

I'm into databases. Like for many years. I don't think it is difficult to query squadron database for 'names of organizations recognized by national or international courts as criminal, extremist or terrorist', drop them down and ban some players for a month.

All it takes is DB specialist to query the results, five people to make a proper judgment and a week of work. You don't need reports, just do your job.

 

It's more difficult with player names, I get it. There is much more of them, than squadrons. It is still possible without reports though, but reports can help if taken seriously.

Game masters aren’t Gaijin employees or DBA’s… so, they don’t have any such access.

[Stona 72,542]

13 hours ago, GunValkyrieElise said:

2.1.8. Names of organizations recognized by national or international courts as criminal, extremist or terrorist [...]

Can you link me to an international court judgment on this? Sadly, I cannot find Stasi on list, same as I cannot find any other state security service.

[rUl3r 297]

32 minutes ago, Stona said:

Can you link me to an international court judgment on this? Sadly, I cannot find Stasi on list, same as I cannot find any other state security service.

The Stasi  probably has never been marked as a criminal organisation by any courts because it was disbanded before the reunification of Germany. There have been trials against Stasi-agents and the head of the Stasi.

However, I'd rather invoke rule 2.1.2 - Words, phrases, and idioms that are offensive in any of the following ways - political, religious, national, racial, ethnic, sexual, etc.

As a German citizen I do find the (clearly unjustified) use of the term "Stasi" as a clan tag to be offensive. This organisation was responsible for political murders (e.g. dissidents living in Western Germany) and supported terrorist organisations (for example the Red Army Fraction in Western Germany). It is a dark stain on Germany history, not far from the SD or GeStaPo, and there is no reason why it's name should be allowed as a clan tag in this game.

[Bunny 宝妮 1,477]

1 hour ago, Kicimijazawa said:

I'm into databases.

If you're into databases, you'd know that while Stasis "at times colluded with terrorist groups, the degree of support fluctuated considerably, and there is no evidence that a state actor "created" the armed groups or "directed" their activities" (Vielhaber, 2013), they're not criminal, extremist, or terrorist organisations in and of themselves.

 

FYI: most articles and databases are not free to the public; you can only access the vast majority of databases and scientific articles if you are currently in an institution or are a researcher yourself, like I am.

 

1 hour ago, Kicimijazawa said:

All it takes is DB specialist to query the results, five people to make a proper judgment and a week of work. You don't need reports, just do your job.

It is far easier said than done. To gain access to vast databases and scientific articles, significant sums of money must be paid on a yearly subscription basis, which the game developer has no need or obligation to do. Being a DB specialist do not grant you access to those databases. The organisation where the DB specialist works pays for the access. Having a hobby in database as a public is one thing; having access to the database as a researcher is quite another. The level of access between the two differs by several orders of magnitude.

 

 

When the general public searches the databases, this is what they see.

Spoiler

 

References:

1. Vielhaber, D. (2013) “The Stasi–Meinhof Complex?,” Studies in Conflict & Terrorism, 36(7), pp. 533–546.

Edited March 30 by LadyValencia

[GunValkyrieElise 219]

.

Edited May 24 by GunValkyrieElise

[[email protected] 218]

1 hour ago, Stona said:

Can you link me to an international court judgment on this? Sadly, I cannot find Stasi on list, same as I cannot find any other state security service.

Interesting Point of View....

 

It's kinda difficult to find the rule of an international court of judgement to prohibit or rule a state ministry or state service a terrorist organisation without calling the state a terrorist state itself.

Nevertheless, this is a game and as such Gaijin makes the rules and not any international court. 

 

As someone born and raised in East Germany during socialist times I can not understand why anyone would willingly associate him/herself with this organisation at all. 

If this organisation would still exist today and would operate, then you can bet that they would be labeled a terrorist organisation...however, just as the SS, Gestapo and all the other eastern european services that were there to keep the own population in line, the gouvernemnts are no longer in existence and therefore there is no formal court decision required. 

 

So therefore this becomes more or less a point of common sense and ethics...

 

If Gaijin doesn't want to bother with such things, then remove the team killing limitation and let the players deal with that themselves...

 

And if anyone wonders why the STASI would be ruled a terrorist organisation if they still existed, have a read here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

[Kicimijazawa 289]

2 hours ago, GarbageFlying said:

Game masters aren’t Gaijin employees or DBA’s… so, they don’t have any such access.

I'm thinking about an average Gaijin human resource responsible of data quality, not FastGT007

 

1 hour ago, LadyValencia said:

To gain access to vast databases and scientific articles, significant sums of money must be paid on a yearly subscription basis, which the game developer has no need or obligation to do. Being a DB specialist do not grant you access to those databases.

Not sure if you have been here when helicopters arrived. Gaijin introduced the bug, that allowed players to gain an incredible amounts of GE in no time using 'invite a friend' function.

To fix this, they deleted ~week worth of data from their database, hence they do have people and the means to run a simple query; to list the squadron names and abbreviations and look for offenders.
They do not need an external, expensive expert to do it.

 

33 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

As someone born and raised in East Germany during socialist times I can not understand why anyone would willingly associate him/herself with this organisation at all. 

If this organisation would still exist today and would operate, then you can bet that they would be labeled a terrorist organisation...however, just as the SS, Gestapo and all the other eastern european services that were there to keep the own population in line, the gouvernemnts are no longer in existence and therefore there is no formal court decision required. 

This! You just need a common sense and an elementary education to know whats good or wrong.

Stona, would being a member of ZOMO squadron be ok to you? Even if it is abbreviation of 'Zaraz Ogarne Matematyke Ojcze'? I hope not.

[Bunny 宝妮 1,477]

14 minutes ago, Kicimijazawa said:

Not sure if you have been here when helicopters arrived. Gaijin introduced the bug, that allowed players to gain an incredible amounts of GE in no time using 'invite a friend' function.

To fix this, they deleted ~week worth of data from their database, hence they do have people and the means to run a simple query; to list the squadron names and abbreviations and look for offenders.

I was there when you can earn massive amount of GE using "invite a friend" function.

All I was trying to say was that "Stasis" is never a criminal, extremist, or terrorist organisation recognised by national or international courts. While this word may be offensive to some for various reasons, the degree of support for Stasis's collusion with terrorist groups at the time is highly debatable, and there is no direct evidence that Stasis "created" or "directed" the armed groups' activities (Vielhaber, 2013). As a result, it never violated rule 2.1.8. in the first place.

Rule 2.1.2 may be debatable. However, I have seen many players use tons of nicknames that are offensive to some Asians. But, in the end, it is very subjective.

[Stona 72,542]

1 hour ago, Kicimijazawa said:

 

This! You just need a common sense and an elementary education to know whats good or wrong.

Stona, would being a member of ZOMO squadron be ok to you? Even if it is abbreviation of 'Zaraz Ogarne Matematyke Ojcze'? I hope not.

We are talking on written rules, not my subjective feels. Going into path of "what's good or wrong" in game available on international market, with players from around the world means no personalized nicknames or squadron names, because we live in 2023 and if there is a word, there is a person who will be offended by it.

[Uncle J [email protected] 388]

15 hours ago, Stona said:

16 hours ago, cashmeowsidehbd said:

for over three years i have been reporting the use of the word "stasi" as a squad name. Last night i saw the same squad name in a mission. Do you people have a history book? Do you consider "stasi" to be an acceptable name for a squad? Serious questions after better than three years i think. Maybe google it?

Can you point which rule, according to you, that name is breaking? 

 

1 hour ago, Stona said:

Can you link me to an international court judgment on this? Sadly, I cannot find Stasi on list, same as I cannot find any other state security service.

 

I understand your pov.

 

The main problem is that there is no valid international law for such things. To be prosecuted by the guys in Den Haag has literally zero effect as this would imply that the accused individual comes from a state/country that would have officially accepted their responsibility and assessed Den Haag as superior law.

 

I mean there is a reason why the US or Russia never accepted Den Haag as superior law; so from a neutral perspective anybody from the US describing somebody from Russia as "accused of being a war criminal" (we have a current example) is a implying that Den Haag would have been relevant, despite his own country rejects Den Haag, denying any authority vs US citizens.

 

These Wagner guys - they are just the Russian equivalent of Blackwater. So even if they or somebody else is objectively committing war crimes (and imho those mercenary groups are just created for this in order to keep the regular forces out of trouble), there will be no valid or applicable court decision about this. Afaik they are usually backed up by their head of state, explicitly allowing them to violate national and international law. 

 

I reported those "Stasi" guys some months ago too. With a detailed list of their activities like other players in this thread. I was honestly quite disappointed that they are still using this name - i mean they were basically a East German version of the Gestapo. Looking for a court makes no sense as they were part of a country that ceased to exist, so there was just no need for a court decision - even in case East Germany would have accepted foreign law as applicable.

 

I know that political discussions are not allowed according to your forum rules and by registering i accepted those rules as applicable. But i think the players above me made valid points to rethink your pov regarding some aspects or previous assessments.

 

Have in mind that there is no such thing as moral - it is always a hindsight based on current assessments of what is right or wrong in a social context of today's pov. Same point of historical assessments of actions within a war. It is an unwritten rule of military history that the winner of a specific battle has the right to give the battle a name; same as assessments or trials versus defeated nations or individuals - the winner has the right to declare what was right and what was wrong and history writing is based on the winners pov. Even the famous MacArthur stated that dropping 2 nukes would have made him a war criminal if Japan had somehow managed the war (u can google this, true).

 

I was therefore quite disappointed that a "Question to the Team" was deleted (not closed) by one of your Mods on Sunday (without responding or even reading my question why it was deleted).

 

I asked about your red lines between Freedom of Speech vs offended people - especially a you deal with players from countries with "Common Law" and with "Civil Law" at the same time. So using the "Stasi" name might be fine for players if they come from a country with "Common Law" (as fully covered by liberal view on Freedom of Speech) but certainly not for players from countries with "Civil Law" as their individual right to be offended is usually backed up by local law - and usually the local law restricts Freedom of Speech much more.

 

And as stated above there is no need to look for a court decision as there was no need to create such a decision, and even in case there would be one it is highly unlikely that this decision would be applicable. I read some years ago about some efforts in this way but i remember it was never continued, i think it was about state pension payments to retired Stasi officers... 

 

Looking forward to a possible reply - and to make this clear: This is mentioned as support and not to challenge. Thx!

 

39 minutes ago, LadyValencia said:

But, in the end, it is very subjective.

 

Exactly!

 

10 hours ago, FastGT007 said:

report! report! report!

 

I mean i and many others reported lots of stuff but i looks like that some of the reports were decided by individuals with other povs.

But a funny one: There is actually a player using the tag PassiveMenis... I mean i am not offended, but some might be...

 

5 hours ago, GarbageFlying said:

Sure, been reporting loads of people using bots in Air RB, they are still flying around just fine on full auto mode. Maybe they are excluded under your rules? Kinda makes the reporting feel useless when taking the time to help you identify people using bots and report them for nothing to happen..

 

Can confirm this for a Ju288 bot i met now three times flying with me. The bot flies straight to a base and than in a straight line to the enemy airport - below 4km, looks like he he wants to get shot down by af aaa if he will be ignored by enemy fighters to play another match as soon as possible, no evasive action. In the 2nd match his autogunner killed an F4U-4b and critted a Spit... 

 

[[email protected] 218]

11 minutes ago, Stona said:

We are talking on written rules, not my subjective feels. Going into path of "what's good or wrong" in game available on international market, with players from around the world means no personalized nicknames or squadron names, because we live in 2023 and if there is a word, there is a person who will be offended by it.

Isn't that a bit oversimplifying it? 

 

The fact that you have a thread on this forum and obviously in game reports of people that are offended by the name should be a first indicator.

And we're not talking about a "word" here, we're talking about an alliance that has "STASI" as an abbreviation, "Staatssicherheit" as a name and uses the "shield and sword of the party" as squadron information.

So it's not about a word or a squad tag that coincidently matches an opressive, criminal and terror supporting organisation from a totalitary regime, but some person who deliberately chose the tag, the name and the connection to mentioned organisation and all the members of that group going along with it.... 

 

So again, it''s down to Ethics at Gaijin whether they allow such naming even after it has been brought to their attention through in-game reporting and now on their official forum too, or if they ignore it and then we can go ahead and use all kind of names for squadrons. 

[Stona 72,542]

1 minute ago, [email protected] said:

Isn't that a bit oversimplifying it? 

 

The fact that you have a thread on this forum and obviously in game reports of people that are offended by the name should be a first indicator.

 

Please re-read again my answers. We need to have universal rules. If we will start to act on our personal feels, we will end banning all names and nicknames. Almost anything with connection to real world would need to be banned.

27 minutes ago, Uncle J [email protected] said:

 

I understand your pov.

 

I reported those "Stasi" guys some months ago too. With a detailed list of their activities like other players in this thread. I was honestly quite disappointed that they are still using this name - i mean they were basically a East German version of the Gestapo. Looking for a court makes no sense as they were part of a country that ceased to exist, so there was just no need for a court decision - even in case East Germany would have accepted foreign law as applicable.

 

After Wiki

"After the war ended, the Gestapo was declared a criminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal (IMT) at the Nuremberg trials."

[Bruce_R1 2,108]

31 minutes ago, Stona said:

We are talking on written rules, not my subjective feels. Going into path of "what's good or wrong" in game available on international market, with players from around the world means no personalized nicknames or squadron names, because we live in 2023 and if there is a word, there is a person who will be offended by it.

Seems to me your written rule (2.1.2) says names that are "politically offensive" need to be removed. OP says it's politically offensive to him. It meets the test. So... Get moving. Follow your rules. It doesn't matter if it's hard to do... you wrote the rule, after all.

[[email protected] 218]

2 minutes ago, Stona said:

Please re-read again my answers. We need to have universal rules. If we will start to act on our personal feels, we will end banning all names and nicknames. Almost anything with connection to real world would need to be banned.

 

That's fine by me. 

I'd say that 90% of the squadron names in War Thunder that I encountered are purely fictional and from the 10% remaining only a handful is offensive to the point that Gaijin should step in and force a name change. Whether that is a variation of Wagner, Nazi or what we're discussing here. 

 

An addendum to the rules that prohibits any relation to real life organisations, groups and the like and events or places of historic relevance would also be sensible, because otherwise I could found a squad called Auschwitz. 

 

I know that this is a difficult topic, but due to the nature of this game you get your fair share of in-game extremists and Gaijin is responsible for addressing these issues.