team killing

[przybysz86 10,310]

in missile tiers (9.3+ more or less) around 25% (if not more) of my deaths are at hand of an ally.

In total, over months, this cost me easily 10million SL already in spawn cost alone (not counting how much SL and RP I lost because my activity % was reset to zero after I died)
In game where we all struggle with grind this is just stupid. If not for such "allies" I would've been much further in my tech tree progress.

I had MULTIPLE battles where I died more to allies than to enemies. I had many battles where I died only to allies and not a single time to enemy.
I can't even count how many times I merged with ally only to see him do 180 and shoot me a missile in the back - literally 15s after we passed each other in eye-contact distance.
Many times I died being killed by someone flying plane with great radar with IFF,


GJ really need to take care of those ***** (self censored but you should figure out what I mean).
IDK - maybe make TK penalty be 1million SL or something, or start giving 24h "bans" if you TK more than 2-3x in one day - maybe that will make people think twice before releasing the missile at target not fully identified or into furball where it can switch target and move after ally

 

Edited February 13 by przybysz86

[przybysz86 10,310]

and to address unavoidable comments like "have you never had situation you did all well and still your missile went after ally?"

Yes I did. And you don't even need missiles - everyone sooner or later will have ally just pop from under the nose and cross the gun burst just as we fire. 
Thing is - I have such situation 2-3x a year maybe while in every single battle I am in there is at least one player (often multiple in both teams) who are kicked from battle after 2 TKs in one game (!)

Edited February 13 by przybysz86

[Josephs_Piano 7,032]

And remember you can only report TK-ing via the replay function - reporting it in the game does nothing at all!!

[przybysz86 10,310]

Just now, Josephs_Piano said:

And remember you can only report TK-ing via the replay function - reporting it in the game does nothing at all!!

1. game knows when they TK - they do get some small SL penalty for it and if the do it twice they get kicked out of current game.
Problem is - that's apparently not enough to stop them from spamming missiles at any dot they see or shoulder firing heat seeker while having 3 afterburning allies between them and target.

2. and what would that do? Unless someone is constantly abusing it on purpose, the reporting will most likely be ignored. @Schindibee can possibly shed some light here.


Anyway - I am not talking about people griefing and TKing on purpose but people who just spam missile left, right and centre w/o properly identifying target.
Especially if you fly premium palane, you will still make SL and RP even team killing from time to time. Even if you get kicked you sill earn SL and RP since those planes are cheap.
I also am aware GJ will want to sell missile equipped premium planes so asking them to stop is pointless.

That does not change the fact that this is massive problem.
I literally have seen games where each team (both of them) killed more allies than enemies. Both sides lost multiple planes but majority of deaths were due to blue on blue.
 

[Conejero00 164]

I'm going 70 enemy kills on the MiG-29 and only once I teamkilled, when I didn't knew a friendly was near an enemy and my R-27ER sadly switched targets

 

This game really needs a radar tutorial or at least an IFF tutorial, yes, sometimes it can fail and you can lock a friendly, but you have eyes to see that you're selecting and locking a friendly...

 

And yes sometimes it states a friendly as an enemy, but unless you're in R-60 range you have enough time for the radar to do more sweeps and identify correctly a friendly

 

If I got TKed by a non IFF plane I could understand it, but this is reaching a point where it's starting to become an epidemic

[przybysz86 10,310]

If someone reading this don't play missile tiers yet and wonder what I am all about. Let me show you:

This might be quicker than average but it's a huge problem in top tiers now.
And as visible - it's not limited to people who just installed game and spent $70 on a premium and have no idea what's what. This is a guy who spent weeks, months or maybe years to grind to top tier jet and still merrily shoots everyone he sees.

Both of those guys just lost all hard-earned SL and maybe more since plane spawn at those tiers are expesive

[Schindibee 2,857]

9 hours ago, przybysz86 said:

2. and what would that do? Unless someone is constantly abusing it on purpose, the reporting will most likely be ignored. @Schindibee can possibly shed some light here.
 

Most of TK and team damage incidents are covered by the automated TK system, which takes into account numbers of TK incidents within a certain time. This system is in my experienc very reliable and well proven.

 

Excessive TK's as described are still recommended to be reported via Server Replay functionality, so the responsible team can have a look at them and maybe even issue further sanctions.

 

An d on a personal note:  Yes TK's are annoying, but do happen (even I recently shot down a friendly because my missile shifted aim - my fault though as the aircraft were merged too much and I shouldn't have risked it...). It's especially aggravating if one knows that the shooter actually has access to IFF. But it's an expensive thing to do, TKin: The fine is hefty, and the sanctions if repeated can be really severe.

[przybysz86 10,310]

8 minutes ago, Schindibee said:

Most of TK and team damage incidents are covered by the automated TK system, which takes into account numbers of TK incidents within a certain time. This system is in my experienc very reliable and well proven.

 

Excessive TK's as described are still recommended to be reported via Server Replay functionality, so the responsible team can have a look at them and maybe even issue further sanctions.

 

thanks.I think what I want to discuss is not subject for manual review system. this is more systemic problem that need to be dealt with by automated solutions since, 99% of it is pure negligence on player's part.
It would've clogged GM's pipeline if they had to deal with every single case.


 

 

9 minutes ago, Schindibee said:

An d on a personal note:  Yes TK's are annoying, but do happen (even I recently shot down a friendly because my missile shifted aim - my fault though as the aircraft were merged too much and I shouldn't have risked it...). It's especially aggravating if one knows that the shooter actually has access to IFF. But it's an expensive thing to do, TKin: The fine is hefty, and the sanctions if repeated can be really severe.

problem is that me as a victim pay for it too. If he plays a premium plane than he will often still make small profit from whole match while me dying in 25k SL plane that have 1/3 SL/min compared to his, I am almost guaranteed to lose money for the sortie.

And even if he didn't fly premium but also 25k plane - don't ask me to feel pity for such people.
When my missile go stupid and TK a friendly I know I will pay and I should pay for it. My problem is that the guy who just got killed by me also had to pay for it.
If we only talked about rare cases of someone being stupid and flying between me and my enemy - maybe it would be fine for both sides to have cost attached to that but 99% of TKs in jet combat is 100% fault of the shooter
 

[przybysz86 10,310]

first death of the day - of course TKd by an *****


I survived 7 engagements with enemy only get get missile from an ally.


@Stona @Smin1080p
GJ really need to consider team killing big issue.
It's a plague. Over last 2 days I've not died twice to enemy and 4x to allies. This is getting out of hand.
Allies are responsible for most of my SL losses currently

EDIT: I ended day with 50% of my deaths being due to team kills

Edited February 15 by przybysz86

[Vega_4S 78]

Oh yeah, at high Tiers it is now the norm to see premium A-10s and Su-25s achieve a good 20% of the kills suffered by their own team.

 

The deadly combination of players without experience and all aspects missiles generates real massacres, the hunger for easy kills predominates over reason and these people do nothing to make sure that the target is friend or foe.

 

I don't know why, but recently F-16s are also doing a lot of team kills. A few days ago a guy fired 4 missiles at me and finally shot me down on the F-14, keeping me locked on radar for over a minute, shortly after he killed another ally and was kicked out.

 

A penalty that increases with the number of friendly kills would be desirable, with a short ban, or at least compensate the spawn cost of the one who was shot down.

Edited February 14 by Vega_4S

[[email protected] 27]

This topic is another example on why voice chat is so vital. I know you can communicate with text, but it isn’t near as good as voice chat. When I play with voice chat via discord, the game is so much better simply because of the communication. Voice chat would prevent some of those team kills, not all for sure, but a good portion none the less.

[przybysz86 10,310]

22 minutes ago, Vega_4S said:

I don't know why, but recently F-16s are also doing a lot of team kills. 

Yeah. I've noticed that too.

 

It's bad when premium new guys do it but when it tech tree top planes  it shows that we can't just blame total lack of experience.

 

 

8 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

This topic is another example on why voice chat is so vital. I know you can communicate with text, but it isn’t near as good as voice chat. When I play with voice chat via discord, the game is so much better simply because of the communication. Voice chat would prevent some of those team kills, not all for sure, but a good portion none the less.

Problem is that you can't force people to use it* + we will have language barriers.

 

Ive already been told many times that being TKd it's my (victim's) fault because I should've pinged my position. 

 

*For example my friend often plays with small child sleeping in same small room and he won't use microphone

Edited February 14 by przybysz86

[[email protected] 27]

18 hours ago, przybysz86 said:

Yeah. I've noticed that too.

 

It's bad when premium new guys do it but when it tech tree top planes  it shows that we can't just blame total lack of experience.

 

 

Problem is that you can't force people to use it* + we will have language barriers.

 

Ive already been told many times that being TKd it's my (victim's) fault because I should've pinged my position. 

 

*For example my friend often plays with small child sleeping in same small room and he won't use microphone

1) every game has people that speak different languages, that can’t be an excuse not to have it. It should be an option to use it, like every other game.

2) I have team killed a few players because I repeatedly pinged my location and they refused to ping back. I like to fire at distances beyond the friendly indication markers that pop up when shooting at bombers. If I ping several times and get no response, what do you expect to happen? Yes, I could fly closer and see if the friendly indicator pops up, and/or get better at identifying planes at distance. I could also say, “why don’t you just ping me back, is it that hard?”

[cpt_nosh 776]

I think team killing in SB is legit considering firing missiles into a furball will lead to exactly that. If it's someone who doesn't know the "how to" of SB or his radar, that's a player issue. Just take out the repaircost for the one that is killed and everybody is happy.

[przybysz86 10,310]

2 hours ago, [email protected] said:

 

2) I have team killed a few players because I repeatedly pinged my location and they refused to ping back

If you take shot at someone it's 100% your responsibility to ID your target.
If you are not 100% sure it's an enemy DO NOT SHOOT.

I know people who play with radio/chat turned off because it's annoying to them so they will never see your pings. But it's does not matter. You, and only you are responsible for identification of your target BEFORE you fire.

 

1 hour ago, cpt_nosh said:

I think team killing in SB is legit considering firing missiles into a furball will lead to exactly that. If it's someone who doesn't know the "how to" of SB or his radar, that's a player issue. Just take out the repaircost for the one that is killed and everybody is happy.

of course team damage should stay in SB same as it is in air RB. Problem is that, despite clear rules of conduct that GJ provided (where team damage is forbidden) we have so many people doing that.
If it was few guys that made honest mistakes and hit friendly I'd not say a word (maybe to them but not publicly) but when I regularly have days where I die more to allies than enemy, I think we can say we have a problem.

I don't want to add any new rules, etc - I just want GJ to enforce the rule that exist from as long as I remember

[RideR2 5,039]

2 hours ago, [email protected] said:

2) I have team killed a few players because I repeatedly pinged my location and they refused to ping back.

I hate people who do this, how hard is it to learn how planes look like and check the statistics screen to know what planes your team has.

Also if you like to pay that much attention to your chat then what about checking the kill feed regularly.

Somehow when flying planes with a bad radar (which is so useless that I can't ID anything) or no radar I'm still easily able to ID any plane. Like I said all you need to do is to just check the statistics screen, then zoom in (yes, you can actually do it) and check the plane type in front of you and even if both teams use the same planes then there are still ways to ID planes (I don't think it makes it reasonable to launch the AAM at any F-16 if there's a single enemy player from the RU/CN team that uses the F-16 MLU).

 

Quote

“why don’t you just ping me back, is it that hard?”

And it doesn't change the fact that you are a teamkiller and break the game rules since you are fully intentionally killing someone.

There are really many ways to ID planes: radar (with IFF), markers, visual identification and not just chat, not everyone reads it, especially during a fight or when they are attacking someone.

Edited February 15 by RideR2

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

On 13/02/2023 at 23:59, przybysz86 said:

and to address unavoidable comments like "have you never had situation you did all well and still your missile went after ally?"

Yes I did. And you don't even need missiles - everyone sooner or later will have ally just pop from under the nose and cross the gun burst just as we fire. 
Thing is - I have such situation 2-3x a year maybe while in every single battle I am in there is at least one player (often multiple in both teams) who are kicked from battle after 2 TKs in one game (!)

 

There is an issue that isn't entirely manmade with this though.

 

Since there is a disparity between server and client you will have situations where you have a hard lock on a target and your aim 7 goes for another plane (which shouldn't really be possible if the planes aren't veeeeery close).

 

The reason for this is, that you may have locked an enemy on the client but on the server you locked a friendly.

Veery little you can do about it and at least while grinding in RB i gad several of these situations.

 

After checking the server replay i saw this issue.

[Conejero00 164]

4 hours ago, [email protected] said:

2) I have team killed a few players because I repeatedly pinged my location and they refused to ping back. I like to fire at distances beyond the friendly indication markers that pop up when shooting at bombers. If I ping several times and get no response, what do you expect to happen? Yes, I could fly closer and see if the friendly indicator pops up, and/or get better at identifying planes at distance. I could also say, “why don’t you just ping me back, is it that hard?”

In this situations your plane radar had IFF?

Also yes, learn how to ID and never shoot without IDing first

[przybysz86 10,310]

47 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

There is an issue that isn't entirely manmade with this though.

 

Since there is a disparity between server and client you will have situations where you have a hard lock on a target and your aim 7 goes for another plane (which shouldn't really be possible if the planes aren't veeeeery close).

 

The reason for this is, that you may have locked an enemy on the client but on the server you locked a friendly.

Veery little you can do about it and at least while grinding in RB i gad several of these situations.

 

After checking the server replay i saw this issue.

hard lock is not pin-point accurate. your radar even in full lock is not a dot in the sky but a cone that gets wider the further you are. if ally gets inside that cone missile can switch to him.

There is also mechanics where missile have so called speed-gating. this means that if relative speed of target drops the missile will ignore it.
This is how AIM7 can go after plane that use chaff even if shooting plane does not have PD radar (F-4E for example). Once enemy starts chaffing my radar will drop lock and switch to chaff but missile will still go after enemy as long as he is within that cone. Why? because, despite the fact I have solid lock on chaff it's speed is zero and speed-gating filter will tell missile to ignore it and go for next biggest target in the cone.
This means that if enemy plane notch your radar and ally does not, missile might got for ally even if you maintain solid lock on enemy.
And this does not require plane to be "veeeeeery" close. Missile can follow plane even after chaff he fired is 100m or more behind him (especially at longer ranges this margin is quite large). I had kill like that just yesterday.

If I understood it right this sounds more like lack of full understanding of game mechanics.

Edited February 15 by przybysz86

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

13 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

hard lock is not pin-point accurate. your radar even in full lock is not a dot in the sky but a cone that gets wider the further you are. if ally gets inside that cone missile can switch to him.

 

Sure but i mean you locking a target to your right and the missile going left.

Nowhere near that cone. This happens.

 

13 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

 

There is also mechanics where missile have so called speed-gating. this means that if relative speed of target drops the missile will ignore it.
This is how AIM7 can go after plane that use chaff even if shooting plane does not have PD radar (F-4E for example). Once enemy starts chaffing my radar will drop lock and switch to chaff but missile will still go after enemy as long as he is within that cone. Why? because, despite the fact I have solid lock on chaff it's speed is zero and speed-gating filter will tell missile to ignore it and go for next biggest target in the cone.

 

Those are targets close toneachother though. I never denied anything like that.

 

I specified that the rargets weren't close... So why inject this in a response to me?

This has nothing to do with my post.

 

 

13 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

This means that if enemy plane notch your radar and ally does not, missile might got for ally even if you maintain solid lock on enemy.

 

Sure... Only if the target is in the same dorection and roughly in the same area. I was talking about cases where this is NOT(!!!) The case. So why inject it?

 

13 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

And this does not require plane to be "veeeeeery" close. Missile can follow plane even after chaff he fired is 100m or more behind him (especially at longer ranges this margin is quite large). I had kill like that just yesterday.

 

 

To make this clear i was talking about kilometers. I shouldn't have phrased it that way. 100m would be considered very close by me. I mean different directions.

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

If I understood it right this sounds more like lack of full understanding of game mechanics.

 

BS... This is only you interpreting and then reading into your interpretation.

 

As i said i checked the server replays.

 

Stop being an a** and don't insinuate. For this to be correct your interpretations and stuff/information you added to my post (that i never said happened) must be true. Which they are not. I saw this happen with planes 45 degrees in another direction.

 

You read stuff into the post that wasn't there and judgw on that... Stop it only take the exact information posted, if you need mape... ASK!!!

 

Instead of making stuff up. That's xxxx behaviour.

 

What an arrogant way to communicate.

 

13 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

 

 

Edited February 15 by DerGrafVonZahl

[przybysz86 10,310]

12 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

Sure but i mean you locking a target to your right and the missile going left.

Nowhere near that cone. This happens

maybe it happens but extremely unlikely. I've shot my share of missiles and have not see it once. This means that even if this bug happens it cannot be accounted as reason for massive team killing we have.
Not to mention that majority of TKs that happen to me is using IR guided missiles.

This means that this bug is not an explantation and bringing some rare issue as explanation of very common thing just does not add up.

 

12 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

BS... This is only you interpreting and then reading into your interpretation.

that's why I've said that "if I understood correctly" - what I said was nothing personal. No need to get angry.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

50 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

maybe it happens but extremely unlikely. I've shot my share of missiles and have not see it once. This means that even if this bug happens it cannot be accounted as reason for massive team killing we have.
Not to mention that majority of TKs that happen to me is using IR guided missiles.

This means that this bug is not an explantation and bringing some rare issue as explanation of very common thing just does not add up.

 

It's not that rare at all. Sure there are more common errors:

 

-thinking tws designation for active missiles is a secure way to lock (many many f14 tks...)

 

 

But Server/client differences are quite common in WT, due to the way WT is build. What you see on the clientside is not necessarily what happens onnthe server.

Dissapearing tanks in GF... There are a lot of these issues and they are more common than you think.

 

In sim it doesn't happen that often, since the target density is lower. But if you fire at someone engaged with a friendly or someone that isn't alone (and that means someone else is in the same postal code). It can happen rather often. It's also less visible in sim as you often don't have visual and it usually hits another enemy. That's why i recognized it grinding in RB not in SB. Especially if you toggle targets and don't use the tdc.

 

But yea there are tks outside of the players control.

 

 

50 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

that's why I've said that "if I understood correctly" - what I said was nothing personal. No need to get angry.

 

You didn't understand correctly, but the thing you did is acting like i said something that i did not... That is really dishonest and you should stop that.

[przybysz86 10,310]

3 minutes ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

But yea there are tks outside of the players control

of course but vast majority of TKs I've seen and/or analysed are not those.
What you describe, and many other things can happen but it's beyond RNG for it to happen 10x in one game to various planes and missiles.

If they were that common I am sure that me and other people I've talked too would see them more often and we don't. I am not saying they don't exist just that I don't see them often and based at least on my observation it's impossible that they happen frequently enough to explain majority of TKs we have.

Most of TKs are kills on planes that team killer was aiming at. Missile did it's job - pilot didn't. Most TKs I've seen are case of wrong ID and 2nd biggest group is shooting missiles into furballs with enemies and friendlies near to each other where missile can be expected to sometimes switch target - especially if enemy suddenly drops afterburner and friendly keeps it, etc.

Despite game being far from perfect, most TKs are player error

[[email protected] 27]

4 hours ago, przybysz86 said:

If you take shot at someone it's 100% your responsibility to ID your target.
If you are not 100% sure it's an enemy DO NOT SHOOT.

I know people who play with radio/chat turned off because it's annoying to them so they will never see your pings. But it's does not matter. You, and only you are responsible for identification of your target BEFORE you fire.

 

of course team damage should stay in SB same as it is in air RB. Problem is that, despite clear rules of conduct that GJ provided (where team damage is forbidden) we have so many people doing that.
If it was few guys that made honest mistakes and hit friendly I'd not say a word (maybe to them but not publicly) but when I regularly have days where I die more to allies than enemy, I think we can say we have a problem.

I don't want to add any new rules, etc - I just want GJ to enforce the rule that exist from as long as I remember

Agreed, it is my fault if I team kill you, but simply hitting the “follow me” command  would have prevented me from shooting. 

[[email protected] 27]

4 hours ago, RideR2 said:

I hate people who do this, how hard is it to learn how planes look like and check the statistics screen to know what planes your team has.

Also if you like to pay that much attention to your chat then what about checking the kill feed regularly.

Somehow when flying planes with a bad radar (which is so useless that I can't ID anything) or no radar I'm still easily able to ID any plane. Like I said all you need to do is to just check the statistics screen, then zoom in (yes, you can actually do it) and check the plane type in front of you and even if both teams use the same planes then there are still ways to ID planes (I don't think it makes it reasonable to launch the AAM at any F-16 if there's a single enemy player from the RU/CN team that uses the F-16 MLU).

 

And it doesn't change the fact that you are a teamkiller and break the game rules since you are fully intentionally killing someone.

There are really many ways to ID planes: radar (with IFF), markers, visual identification and not just chat, not everyone reads it, especially during a fight or when they are attacking someone.

I think you need to simmer down there buddy. Im fairly new to sim and don’t even play anything past WW2 era. My situation was specifically seeing a bomber and repeatedly hitting the “follow me” command with no response back. The response I have actually gotten on 2 of the 3 team kills I have committed, have been rear gunner fire before I even open up on them. I was simply saying all they had to do to prevent the situation was hit the “follow me” command. Yes, it’s my fault I didn’t identify them, but as a new player, you could help me out a little by pinging back. Goes back to my original point, no communication.