swiss spaa K+W Fliegerabwehrpanzer 68, the Swiss version of the Gepard

[CaID 8,911]

 

i would like to make a suggestion for an swiss tank that may look familiar to you. the Fliegerabwehrpanzer 68

 

if you are like to common player and arely notice the different turret and only notice the evident turret, you may think "Hey, this is the Gerpard!" and you would be partially right.

the Fliegerabwehrpanzer 68 or FlabPz 68 was a Swiss SPAA who was based on the Panzer 68 and featuring the German Gepard turret. this single line resume basically what it is. but to elaborate, fallowing the development of much more efficient aircraft with higher performance and longer range, the Swiss static air defence was no more protecting the sky with a total efficiency. the need of a modern and more effective meaning of defend the sky was obvious in the middle of the 70s. with the much more accurate artillery and more efficient planes, it was also clear that a highly mobile anti-aircraft system would be better than the static one. as such the Swiss consider the very successful gepard turret who featured 35mm auto-cannon whith high effective range, efficient radar and good tracking radar. it was in 1969 that the FlabPz 68 was built and tested by the Swiss units. using the Panzer 68 chassis which was by this time the most modern tank available in Switzerland and also going to be replaced (the swiss army launched 3 different program to replace the Panzer 68 at about the same time) the Swiss would had ended up shortly with a lot of obsolete tanks who could eventually be used for different role. the test went well and the turret gave the expected result. it was fit for the Swiss services. however, like many nation of this time, the Swiss decided to not adopt the air-defense system based on another auto-cannon and went to the surface-to-air missiles instant. the Rapier was adopted and not the FlabPz 68 simply because it was consider that a missiles would be more efficient.

 

Firepower

the main armament of this tank is the same as the German Gepard. as it happen, the gun was also swiss made which make it quit easy for Switzerland to get the supply of ammunition. featuring two 35mm oerlikon KDA, this auto-cannon was capable to use powerful anti-air round at a much longer range than the 20mm or 30mm. the guns was also capable to fire APHE and APDS round for armoured targets. with a very high turret speed, this tank can effectively track any aircraft  and with the elevation of his gun, it would have little blind-spot from above. the tank also feature a tracking radar and regular radar which make it difficult to hide from this tank when you have a aircraft.

 

35 mm Oerlikon KDA (x2)
Capacity (magazine)		firerate	Vertical	Horizontal	Stabilizer	Rotation speed (°/sec)	Reload (sec)
680 (2x 340)		2x 550	-5°/+85°	±180°	N/A	90.0	1.00

Penetration statistics
Belt	Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
	10 m	100 m	500 m	1,000 m	1,500 m	2,000 m
DM11A1	5	5	5	5	5	5
DM13	68	65	52	40	30	23
DM23	127	125	119	111	104	97

Shell details
Ammunition	Type of warhead	Velocity (m/s)	Projectile mass (kg)	Fuse delay (m)	Fuse sensitivity (mm)	Explosive mass (TNT equivalent) (g)	Ricochet
							0%	50%	100%
DM11A1	HE	1,175	0.55	0.5	0.1	240	79°	80°	81°
DM13	APHE	1,175	0.55	0.1	4	37	47°	60°	65°
DM23	APDS	1,400	0.38	N/A	N/A	N/A	75°	78°	80°

 

Mobility

The FlabPz 68 feature a mobility a bit similar to the Panzer 68. since it was based on this very tank, it would feature the same mechanical parts. the tank is still a fair bit heavier which make it a bit slower to accelerate but have the same MTU MB 837 Ba-500 V-8 diesel engine providing 660 hp and same transmission which give the tank a very good reverse speed. this tank would have a mobility much higher than the german Gepard despite of been similar for those reason. with 46 tonnes, the tank still offer a top speed of 53 km/h and a power-weight of 14.35 hp per tonnes.

 

Max Speed (km/h)		Weight (tons)	Engine power (horsepower)		Power-to-weight ratio (hp/ton)
Forward	Reverse		660		14.35
53	52	46.0

 

Protection

the protection of this tank will be similar of the German counterpart. like his counterpart, the tank was built on a MBT chassis who received little modification and the turret is the very same. this mean the tank can tank HMG fire and is also well protected against Shrapnel. the tank is a bit smaller than the German one due to the smaller chassis but feature the same turret. the crew of 3 men include 1 driver in the chassis and 2 men in the turret. the turret also feature a total of 8 smoke launcher to help the tank to escape from difficult situation and cover his movement.

 

 

Armour	Front	Sides	Rear	Roof
Hull	70 mm (65°) - upper glassis 70 mm (45°) - lower plate	40 mm (45°) - top 20 mm (0°) - behind tracks	50 mm	30 mm
turret	25 mm (1-30°)	20 mm Turret side 10 mm Cannon mounts	20 mm (3°)	15 mm

Specifications
Mass	46 tonnes
Length	7.48 m (24 ft 6 in)
Width	3.33 m (10 ft 11 in)
Height	4.30 m (14 ft 1 in), radar folded:3.14 m (10 ft 4 in)
Crew	3
Armour	up to 120 mm RHA
Main armament	2× 35 mm Mk Oerlikon Gas operated guns, 620 rounds FlaK-Ammunition + 40 rounds Erdziel (Ground target)-Ammunition
Secondary armament	6 51 8 cm, 12 Smoke Cartridges 51
Engine	MTU MB 837 Ba-500 V-8 diesel engine auxiliary motor 4 cylinder engine Mercedes Benz OM 636 660 hp (490 kW), 38 hp (28 kW)
Suspension	Torsion bar
Ground clearance	400 mm
Maximum speed	52 km/h (32 mph) , off-road:30 km/h (19 mph)

 

 

source

https://en.topwar.ru/52119-panzer-61-68-shveycariya.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fliegerabwehrpanzer_68

https://militaerfahrzeuge.ch/unterkategorie_13_18_57.html

https://en.topwar.ru/116767-zenitnaya-samohodnaya-ustanovka-fliegerabwehrpanzer-68-shveycariya.html

[super_cacti 1,021]

Open for discussion 

[Mahiwew 339]

+1 for Swiss ground forces TT

[eleks12 999]

+1. Wonder where the Dev's will actually add the Swiss for the game. 

[[email protected] 163]

-1 for a Gepard copy

 

Let me elaborate on this a bit.

In general I'd love to see vehicles from Switzerland, Austria and Argentina added to the German TT (or any TT), but adding just another (mostly) C&P vehicle doesn't bring any benefit to the relevant TT.

We now have 2 Gepard versions in the game and I'm sure not many people will bother differentiating if their turret sits on a Leopard 1 chassis or a Panzer 68 chassis, as it would be relatively irrelevant to the performance of the identical turret. 

 

I'd rather hope that some more unique vehicles from these nations would add more to the overall game experience than just a Gepard copy. 

 

Sorry if this comes across in a wrong way.

[Mahiwew 339]

11 hours ago, [email protected] said:

-1 for a Gepard copy

 

Let me elaborate on this a bit.

In general I'd love to see vehicles from Switzerland, Austria and Argentina added to the German TT (or any TT), but adding just another (mostly) C&P vehicle doesn't bring any benefit to the relevant TT.

We now have 2 Gepard versions in the game and I'm sure not many people will bother differentiating if their turret sits on a Leopard 1 chassis or a Panzer 68 chassis, as it would be relatively irrelevant to the performance of the identical turret. 

 

I'd rather hope that some more unique vehicles from these nations would add more to the overall game experience than just a Gepard copy. 

 

Sorry if this comes across in a wrong way.

Saying Switzerland would be mostly C&P is terribly false, they have been producing several generations of domestic tanks, IFV’s, tank destroyers ect. and would make them among the most unique contenders for new ground trees.

 

Sure, there would be some better air trees, namely Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia, but Switzerland is arguably the single best potential ground tree to be added to the game.

Edited February 8 by Mahiwew

[[email protected] 163]

I did NOT say that Switzerland is mostly C&P. 

Your proposal for the Panzerjäger 90 is a good one and got my upvote. 

 

However, the vehicle you propose here is a Gepard with a slightly different chassis. 

How does the player differentiate the expereince between the Leopard I and Panzer 68 chassis? Not at all. 

Which TT would the Swiss Gepard go to?  

 

I think adding vehicles to the game should actually bring a benefit to the player and not just provide the same old again and again. 

 

[Mahiwew 339]

11 hours ago, [email protected] said:

I did NOT say that Switzerland is mostly C&P. 

Your proposal for the Panzerjäger 90 is a good one and got my upvote. 

 

However, the vehicle you propose here is a Gepard with a slightly different chassis. 

How does the player differentiate the expereince between the Leopard I and Panzer 68 chassis? Not at all. 

Which TT would the Swiss Gepard go to?  

 

I think adding vehicles to the game should actually bring a benefit to the player and not just provide the same old again and again. 

 

Upon closer inspection it does appear I have misread that C&P bit, but simultaneously you are under the wrong impression that I made the proposal .

 

This vehicle does not have a “slightly" different chassis, it's got an entirely different hull that was fully developed in Switzerland. That isn't just slightly different, that is an actual local product.

 

Additionally, you speak of benefits of a certain vehicle to be one of the requirements for it’s addition.

Have you not perhaps considered that this would make for a perfect 8.0 SPAA for a Swiss tree? It need not be added to Germany where it has no function nor excuse to be in . Sure, said vehicle wouldn’t perform much differently from the Gepard in practice, but why not remove the Type 87 from Japan then? After all, it is functionally similar to the Gepard, ignoring the function it supposedly doesn’t have according to your logic.

[[email protected] 163]

Hence my question into which TT it's supposed to go. 

 

In the German TT it would make no sense.

In the Italian TT it would compete with the Sidam, which might actually be an improvement.

And in the French TT you have the AMX-30 DCA.

 

Again, I think the Swiss have some unique vehicles that would make a great addition to the game and where the players would benefit from, just not this Gepard version. 

If we get a Swiss TT, then yes, that would be a fine addition, but I'd guess that the Snail Overlords would have a difficult time finding the vehicles to flesh the TT out in the first place. 

 

In an "International TT" this might actually be useful, but so far we don't have that. 

[Mahiwew 339]

10 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Hence my question into which TT it's supposed to go. 

 

In the German TT it would make no sense.

In the Italian TT it would compete with the Sidam, which might actually be an improvement.

And in the French TT you have the AMX-30 DCA.

 

Again, I think the Swiss have some unique vehicles that would make a great addition to the game and where the players would benefit from, just not this Gepard version. 

If we get a Swiss TT, then yes, that would be a fine addition, but I'd guess that the Snail Overlords would have a difficult time finding the vehicles to flesh the TT out in the first place. 

 

In an "International TT" this might actually be useful, but so far we don't have that. 

What a horrendous claim that they’d “have a difficult time finding vehicles to flesh out the TT.” The Swiss have near a hundred unique vehicles, as well as a bunch of major modifications besides that, very few copy paste to speak of.

Generations of tanks, IFV’s, tank destroyers, SPH’s, anything you can think of, they made it. 
The only trouble they’d have is with the air tree, but even that has aircraft for any rank with some unique stuff inbetween.

 

As for this “international tech tree”, I don’t know what your idea of that is, but combining loads of nations without a real common ground is a terrible idea. Someone who’d like to get the TR-85M1 should not have to waste time having to get some Spanish AMX-30 first (as an example).

 

Only few combinations of nations make sense, such as Benelux and V4. These are nations with a relatively shared modern history and cooperation while also being on friendly terms throughout that same timeframe . There is no reason however, why Norwegian and Greek vehicles should share a tree.

[[email protected] 163]

22 minutes ago, Mahiwew said:

What a horrendous claim that they’d “have a difficult time finding vehicles to flesh out the TT.” The Swiss have near a hundred unique vehicles, as well as a bunch of major modifications besides that, very few copy paste to speak of.

Are we talking about the armed forces of the Confoederatio Helvetica or a Switzerland that I haven't heard of? 

 

If you look at the german speaking site of the Wikipedia page of Switzerland, then you'll see the full list if you scroll down:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Armee#Panzer_der_Schweizer_Armee 

 

There are some interesting vehicles of swiss origin there for sure, the swiss version of the Hetzer, the Nahkampfkanone and the MPz 58, Pz 61/68 and Pz Kan 68 are interesting for sure and the light vehicles are very interesting for sure...the rest is C&P from various other nations.

That gets us to maybe 20 unique vehicles if we also include the light vehicles. 

 

Good luck trying to turn that into an enjoyable TT...and now I'll happily leave this threat to the people who want to comment on the Gepard copy. 

[Rambolf 339]

11 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Are we talking about the armed forces of the Confoederatio Helvetica or a Switzerland that I haven't heard of? 

 

If you look at the german speaking site of the Wikipedia page of Switzerland, then you'll see the full list if you scroll down:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Armee#Panzer_der_Schweizer_Armee 

 

There are some interesting vehicles of swiss origin there for sure, the swiss version of the Hetzer, the Nahkampfkanone and the MPz 58, Pz 61/68 and Pz Kan 68 are interesting for sure and the light vehicles are very interesting for sure...the rest is C&P from various other nations.

That gets us to maybe 20 unique vehicles if we also include the light vehicles. 

 

Good luck trying to turn that into an enjoyable TT...and now I'll happily leave this threat to the people who want to comment on the Gepard copy. 

Caid already made a full swiss tree tbh

https://caidwarthundertechtree.neocities.org/swiss_tt

[Mahiwew 339]

40 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Are we talking about the armed forces of the Confoederatio Helvetica or a Switzerland that I haven't heard of? 

 

If you look at the german speaking site of the Wikipedia page of Switzerland, then you'll see the full list if you scroll down:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Armee#Panzer_der_Schweizer_Armee 

 

There are some interesting vehicles of swiss origin there for sure, the swiss version of the Hetzer, the Nahkampfkanone and the MPz 58, Pz 61/68 and Pz Kan 68 are interesting for sure and the light vehicles are very interesting for sure...the rest is C&P from various other nations.

That gets us to maybe 20 unique vehicles if we also include the light vehicles. 

 

Good luck trying to turn that into an enjoyable TT...and now I'll happily leave this threat to the people who want to comment on the Gepard copy. 

Source: only Wikipedia.
Lol

Even Pikpikker's proposal that can be found on these forums paints a good picture of what a good tree could look like.

As well as what Rambolf mentioned, the author of this very post made his own tree proposal which is even better.

https://caidwarthundertechtree.neocities.org/swiss_tt

 

If you were to look at service vehicles for many nations you wouldn't find much of interest besides some of the biggest powers in the world, actually looking into a nation's arms development could unveil many prototypes and unique modifications of vehicles.

I recommend actually looking into a nation's potential arsenal before making claims that the tree would be "mostly copy/paste". 

[Rambolf 339]

That caid tree is more then enough to be added and if lush comes to shove Austria could be combined to flesh out air but standalone there's tons of swiss vehicles each unique in there own way excluding like 2 centurions and a stock 2a4

[Tiijayh 6]

+1 would love to see Swiss ground vehicles added

 

On 08/02/2023 at 23:36, [email protected] said:

-1 for a Gepard copy

 

Let me elaborate on this a bit.

In general I'd love to see vehicles from Switzerland, Austria and Argentina added to the German TT (or any TT), but adding just another (mostly) C&P vehicle doesn't bring any benefit to the relevant TT.

We now have 2 Gepard versions in the game and I'm sure not many people will bother differentiating if their turret sits on a Leopard 1 chassis or a Panzer 68 chassis, as it would be relatively irrelevant to the performance of the identical turret. 

 

I'd rather hope that some more unique vehicles from these nations would add more to the overall game experience than just a Gepard copy. 

 

Sorry if this comes across in a wrong way.

 

Adding "(mostly) C&P" vehicles isn't to benefit TT's, It's to add variety and unique vehicles to a game that often prides itself on it's high playable vehicle count.

It's not C&P to add a similar vehicle that do the same action as another vehicle, otherwise you'd only need one MBT, one AA and one LT...

If you are concerned about grinding interference just put this and the two Gepards into a similar vehicle folder and skip it, if it were to affect you in that way. 

[Adr_Farling 228]

+1 gib swiss TT

 

There is enough stuff to put in there!

[Milocat 4,689]

+1 for a future Swiss/Alpine tree.

[DarkLordMagus 38]

+1 for either a Swiss tech tree or a sub-tree for France. (Switzerland could fit either Germany or France if done as a sub-tree, but Germany has less need for it and on the aviation side of things Switzerland made extensive use of locally modified French fighters.)