SPAAs are behind planes in capabilities

[Iraq22306 560]

In war thunder ironically it is easier to counter SPAAs with planes, since planes can have a ridiculous amount of missiles and bombs.

 

Here is few problems

 

1: Fly to the orbit (zero counter)

Due to planes' amazing aiming pods, they can easily spot any tank or SPAA from ranges beyond 12 km and fire laser accurate bombs and missiles with no chance for SPAAs to retaliate.

At 12 km or more, the planes have virtually no counter and can choose any target on the ground.

 

2- The radar in most cases does more harm to SPAAs since detecting SPAA is much easier for planes than it is the other way around, if you have spotted a plane with your radar then that most likely mean the plane

had spotted you a long time ago, and you should be expecting an invisible missile to be heading towards your location.

(Spoiler: found this grammar check mistake a little funny plot twist that why I don't trust them 100%)

Spoiler

 

https://imgur.com/B9OgZrz

Shutting down the radar makes most AAs extra blind, especially in night battles, and it isn't a reliable way to survive against planes.

Plus, shutting down the most important part of the AA (the radar) just to SURVIVE and sacrifice your mates in HOPE of being able to counter a plane isn't exactly a good "strategy" and completely negates the purpose of the SPAAs, considering they exist mainly to protect mates from planes.

3- The ability of planes to counter SPAA's missiles by throwing missiles against them, triggering the missile to explode far from the plane.

-The planes will always win due to the large kill radius the plane's missiles have and any missile that goes through will result in death for the SPAA (it is a silly fight but it happens quite often)

 

 

4- IR SPAAs are horrible and are completely useless in 99% of cases except against land hugging planes and death seeking helicopters (closer than 1km)

Strela being the worst, way worst than Ozelot or Type 93, because this thing literally can never ever lock against Helicopters further then 0.7 km and or planes further than 2km.

Planes are able to magically counter all thermal seeking missiles with flares, even though most of these missiles are made to counter flares.

 

5- Any SPAA without VT shells shouldn't even be considered an SPAA.

Funnily enough VT shells SPAAs are way better IR SPAAs.

 

6- helicopters with throw-and-forget ATGMs are completely broken.

 

7- It is inexpensive to spawn in a plane.

- The standard spawn cost for planes should be 1300, plus 150 for each bomb or missile they carry.

-It is worth mentioning that planes can easily cost 10–20 times more to make than tanks. and "realistically," this should be taken into consideration.

 

A common argument used by plane users

Just spawn in a plane bruh.

Yes, I will spend another 5 years of my life to grind planes which I don't enjoy playing in the first place, a good counter to planes is spending my life, what an outstanding move.

 

Edited January 8 by Iraq22306

[Stormwolf7 4,835]

The biggest problems are these:
You get roughly 1 SPAA, maybe 2 in a BR Range with which to bring to a battle.  Once that SPAA (or 2 SPAAs if you're a madman) are blown up, that's it.  You've got nothing else to fight aircraft with.

You can being 4-6 Aircraft typically within a .3 BR range  (if you were a madman.)  Most probably bring 2-4 to a ground realistic I would guess.

My ADATS runs out of missiles shooting down aircraft, but once my ADATS is destroyed, I don't have anything else to effectively fight planes and choppers.

 

Planes are wayyyyyyy tooooooo eeaaasssssyyyyyyy  to spawn in, and there's a lot more of them than SPAA...

And then you have the planes that just ignore radar SPAA by climbing to 25-30k feet 10-20 km out, way out of range to do anything about if you can detect them in the first place, then  fly overhead and then drop down on you where you have no knowledge because the GROUND SUPPORT SPAA radars don't see them. Boom, you're dead, then you hear the sound.

We don't get Strategic level SAMs, but the fliers get Strategic level air attack.

Gaijin either doesn't think about it, or doesn't care.

 

[Iraq22306 560]

19 minutes ago, Stormwolf7 said:

The biggest problems are these:
You get roughly 1 SPAA, maybe 2 in a BR Range with which to bring to a battle.  Once that SPAA (or 2 SPAAs if you're a madman) are blown up, that's it.  You've got nothing else to fight aircraft with.

You can being 4-6 Aircraft typically within a .3 BR range  (if you were a madman.)  Most probably bring 2-4 to a ground realistic I would guess.

My ADATS runs out of missiles shooting down aircraft, but once my ADATS is destroyed, I don't have anything else to effectively fight planes and choppers.

 

Planes are wayyyyyyy tooooooo eeaaasssssyyyyyyy  to spawn in, and there's a lot more of them than SPAA...

And then you have the planes that just ignore radar SPAA by climbing to 25-30k feet 10-20 km out, way out of range to do anything about if you can detect them in the first place, then  fly overhead and then drop down on you where you have no knowledge because the GROUND SUPPORT SPAA radars don't see them. Boom, you're dead, then you hear the sound.

We don't get Strategic level SAMs, but the fliers get Strategic level air attack.

Gaijin either doesn't think about it, or doesn't care.

 

I have 2 SPAAs in my line up, but they are still no where near effective at doing pretty much anything.

I call them the pacifist and the "hit" simulator in order from left to right.

strela is completely useless and ZSU have a blind radar which I turn off the moment I remember.

100% agree on what you said.

Plus jets at these Br can easily climb high and could do it over and over again.

 

But I'm pretty sure gaijin knows about this but doesn't really care because it is bring in cash by premium planes and helicopters

 

 

Also just had a game where spawn was early camped by helicopters, quite fun, completely prevents a team from making a comeback.

 

Spoiler

[elite930 188]

Yea. Totally agree with you. There is massive issue with Spaa on higher rank. Even now premium jets like su-25 have been added what spam counter measures and shoot rockets longer range than enemy player can counter. Those things have aiming system to tell you where hit enemy with normal rockets to. Lot of the times in game i personally die killing 1 enemy tank simply because there is to many air based threats as ground based vehicle and there is no protection against air threats. Only jets i have are either premium unlocks and event planes like buccaneer s,1. I own with Russians Su-25 and its darn dangerous.... Like best thing in air currently next to helicopters. Like i have gotten more air kills with my shturm-S than my Spaa. That bugger has been decades stock and now some reason gotten lot of upgrades on 9,7.... While trying to kill jets and helicopters with zsu "Both of them with radar" is only possible by hiding and hoping enemy come closer and does not notice you...

 

I´m Ace with jets and only main plane used to be HS-129 with 75mm cannon. But they ruined it. Like i personally rarely play planes and helicopters. Outside Japanese torpedo missions in naval battles.

 

Also speaking of radars... Why in hell these things are so god awful. You cannot rely these things shoot down ww2 plane...... Like aim on these foible like drunk man aiming toward toiled. When shilka was darn dangeroys Spaa in action its time when Missile based system forced jets fly low and these buggers were ready murder them 1-2km ranges. But in here these things need to fight 10km away..... Force part is better spaa is earlier one compared to shilka.

 

Just thrown my own view here. Also i personally dont thing they fix this. They get lot of money from helicopters and jet premiums now. Need to feed them untill remove cord.

[ponnes 472]

Well the problem is that the most SPAA players become brainAFK, as soon as they get a radar and lead indicators. They just wait in the spawn, in the open field with no cover or concealment waiting for the radar to pick up an enemy plane, which wont happen due to the limited vertical arc of the search radar. One Flarakrad, Adats, 2S6 or iTO is enough to negate all CAS if played correctly.

[Iraq22306 560]

2 hours ago, ponnes said:

Well the problem is that the most SPAA players become brainAFK, as soon as they get a radar and lead indicators. They just wait in the spawn, in the open field with no cover or concealment waiting for the radar to pick up an enemy plane, which wont happen due to the limited vertical arc of the search radar. One Flarakrad, Adats, 2S6 or iTO is enough to negate all CAS if played correctly.

Here is the problem.

 

1- Leaving spawn doesn't help SPAA at all if it had the radar on, and whenever SPAA turns it on the plane will get a notification faster then the radar pick up speed and will take caution.

-  Shutting down radar  also hinders the SPAAs ability to counter planes and therefore causes the teammates to die off to planes before SPAA is able to even spot the plane.

- Leaving spawn or not will not stop your teammates from dying to planes, especially the once flying to the orbit with millions of bombs and missiles.

 

2- Leaving spawn is extremely dangerous for SPAAs, I've tried doing so but enemy tanks will easily find and destroy you due to tracers from missiles and shells, not to mention the moment a plane sees a tracer, it will be able to pinpoint the location of the SPAA.

 

3- A large portion of the maps have no cover for SPAA therefore leaving spawn will make it bare visible to all tanks and all planes.

 

Seemingly the SPAA player have to take into account WAY more things then the average plane/helicopter dude who can either fly to orbit or fly normally and get a couple of kills.

either way teammates have died and the SPAA failed in it's only job.

 

You said it yourself SPAAs if played correctly can negate CAS but for planes anyone can pick up at least 2 tanks before dying making planes easy to use and completely broken.

not to mention playing an SPAA correctly requires a lot of luck in positioning and team composition while for planes it doesn't require as much.

 

I also noticed quite often a single decent plane can turn a losing team into a winning team.

Had a F-4E or something (don't know much about planes) where it had loads of bombs whom he kept rearming and flying to orbit to throw bombs.

We were literally winning hands down, but that plane was able to easily destroy SPAAs and a lot of SPAAs were getting spawn yet none was able to do anything to the plane due to the distance he flew.

A correctly played plane can wipe an entire winning team while a correctly played SPAA can never counter such plane.

We might've stood a chance if someone spawned in a plane but that only proves how broken planes, the only way to counter them is by another one. 

and even then it is luck based because not every tanker have grinded all the way to tier 6 planes.

which in this situation none left had a plane in the first place.

 

How is this balanced?

 

[Renamed67451 622]

Most of what you said is skill issue, toptier AAs still easily kill aircraft before they reach AGM launch range.

 

Some of them don't need use radar lock planes, so the RWR won't work, and the others can change searching range to 20km, which means when someone want to climb, it will be found directly.

 

of course KA50/52, UHT tiger could use their powerful missiles kill AAs, but they are still in high risk.

Edited January 9 by KaKaParkChunghee

[ponnes 472]

8 hours ago, Iraq22306 said:

1- Leaving spawn doesn't help SPAA at all if it had the radar on, and whenever SPAA turns it on the plane will get a notification faster then the radar pick up speed and will take caution.

-  Shutting down radar  also hinders the SPAAs ability to counter planes and therefore causes the teammates to die off to planes before SPAA is able to even spot the plane.

- Leaving spawn or not will not stop your teammates from dying to planes, especially the once flying to the orbit with millions of bombs and missiles.

Planes only get a notification on the RWR when you ping them, meaning that they only get a warning if they appear on your radar = when you see them.

And your radar doesnt get you killed, because planes cannot pin point your location with the RWR, they cannot even tell if its a friendly or enemy radar.

 

Leaving the spawn is your best option, because guess where planes check first for enemies when they spawn.

 

8 hours ago, Iraq22306 said:

2- Leaving spawn is extremely dangerous for SPAAs, I've tried doing so but enemy tanks will easily find and destroy you due to tracers from missiles and shells, not to mention the moment a plane sees a tracer, it will be able to pinpoint the location of the SPAA.

You wont get shot as long as you keep some distance to the contested cap zones or exposed areas. Its enough if you move 100 -200 m away from your spawn location, somewhere where you have some cover.

 

As long as you have some friendly tanks in front of you there should be no way enemies can touch you.

 

8 hours ago, Iraq22306 said:

3- A large portion of the maps have no cover for SPAA therefore leaving spawn will make it bare visible to all tanks and all planes.

Well thats not true, there is always cover from enemey tanks. And unless you end up on desert map there should be enough cover from planes aswell. Keep in mind planes can only see you if you can see them.

 

8 hours ago, Iraq22306 said:

Seemingly the SPAA player have to take into account WAY more things then the average plane/helicopter dude who can either fly to orbit or fly normally and get a couple of kills

Its quite the opposite is true, planes have no cover in the sky all they can do to survive is to fly high, to stay out of your radar arc.

 

SPAA can literally hide behind a house and watch the sky with third person view or thermals by only exposing a small part of the optics. Planes without a targeting pot have literally no chance to spot you and even with a targeting pot with thermals its much harder, because the resolution is not that great especially from multiple kilometers distance.

 

People should just start to use their eyes and stop waiting for their radar to do all the work. Top tier SPAA is by far the easiest SPAA to play in the game, because all you have to do is point and click on a enemy plane.

5 hours ago, KaKaParkChunghee said:

Most of what you said is skill issue, toptier AAs still easily kill aircraft before they reach AGM launch range.

@Iraq22306 I can confirm that.

 

Toptier SPAA missiles easily outrange any type of guided air2ground weapon we have in game atm.

[glock991 971]

I don’t know if the people responding to you OP calling it a skill issue play a completely different game(or main CAS lol) but I agree with you

 

also it doesn’t matter how much range you have when planes will literally derender past 8 miles(12km) and disappear from your sight and radar, this is a common occurrence on NA server where the players from my experience are much better on average, I consider myself a good SAM player but when an experienced pilot does **** like this there is literally nothing you can do except hope and pray you happen to spot the dot in the big blue sky when it abracadabra reappears(and that he doesn’t have guided bombs or is above your gun alleviation dead zone)

 

Also the guy above who said most SAMS out range any a2g weapon is wrong. Most of the better top tier guided bombs are easily touching things at 10km+ only the VT1 is reaching that far, with some others reaching out even further

Edited January 10 by glock991

[__Renzo__ 2,281]

21 hours ago, ponnes said:

People should just start to use their eyes and stop waiting for their radar to do all the work. Top tier SPAA is by far the easiest SPAA to play in the game, because all you have to do is point and click on a enemy plane.

Would help if planes always continuously render in. 

 

Had a couple of examples today where I had set my radar to 20km and spotted a plane on it. I went into my optics to look for it only to see it disappear right before my eyes. 

 

A bit later in the same game I just saw countermeasures deployed by an invisible plane. 

[Stormwolf7 4,835]

9 minutes ago, __Renzo__ said:

Would help if planes always continuously render in. 

 

Had a couple of examples today where I had set my radar to 20km and spotted a plane on it. I went into my optics to look for it only to see it disappear right before my eyes. 

 

A bit later in the same game I just saw countermeasures deployed by an invisible plane. 

Seems like an Arcade game masking as realistic.

[GNDM [email protected] 779]

22 hours ago, ponnes said:

 

Toptier SPAA missiles easily outrange any type of guided air2ground weapon we have in game atm.

 

Type 93 is the top tier Spaa for Japan and it's next to worthless even in it's own BR range. 

 

You sure you want to die on that hill? 

[Zephoid 1,550]

22 hours ago, ponnes said:

Leaving the spawn is your best option, because guess where planes check first for enemies when they spawn.

 

You wont get shot as long as you keep some distance to the contested cap zones or exposed areas. Its enough if you move 100 -200 m away from your spawn location, somewhere where you have some cover.

 

As long as you have some friendly tanks in front of you there should be no way enemies can touch you.

 

Well thats not true, there is always cover from enemey tanks. And unless you end up on desert map there should be enough cover from planes aswell. Keep in mind planes can only see you if you can see them.

 

Its quite the opposite is true, planes have no cover in the sky all they can do to survive is to fly high, to stay out of your radar arc.

 

SPAA can literally hide behind a house and watch the sky with third person view or thermals by only exposing a small part of the optics. Planes without a targeting pot have literally no chance to spot you and even with a targeting pot with thermals its much harder, because the resolution is not that great especially from multiple kilometers distance.

 

People should just start to use their eyes and stop waiting for their radar to do all the work. Top tier SPAA is by far the easiest SPAA to play in the game, because all you have to do is point and click on a enemy plane.

@Iraq22306 I can confirm that.

 

Toptier SPAA missiles easily outrange any type of guided air2ground weapon we have in game atm.

AA have to search every direction in the sky. AA have half a postage stamp to hide in. 

Desert maps, mozdok, maginot, Carpathians, Fire arc, Volololololololmsk,alaska, ardenns, european province, ect. Almost every map in this game has huge open areas near the spawn with little cover from the sky. 

Planes have evasion and chaff/flares instead of cover. In the world of thermals, thats a better defensive mechanism.

You want SPAA to hide behind houses and try to find a darker pixel at 8km. And still somehow be combat effective vs it? At lower BR when the bombers came close that worked, Standoff munitions changed that. 

Easiest SPAA? sure. But 8.0 is the only BR in this game where AA are actually better than the planes they face. For the rest of the game you are throwing tracers at the sky hoping for both critical hits and that no other plane is around to take advantage (and that even if you KILL a plane, it can't just turn and kill you while 'dead').

[ponnes 472]

15 hours ago, glock991 said:

Also the guy above who said most SAMS out range any a2g weapon is wrong. Most of the better top tier guided bombs are easily touching things at 10km+ only the VT1 is reaching that far, with some others reaching out even further

Those 10km kills are just theory, None is able to effectively achieve kills from that distance.

Sure you can release a bomb from 10km but there is no way you're going to be able to guide it to a target without getting closer.

The most CAS planes are within 2-6km range, especially those with TV guided weapons, because they can't get a proper tracking lock on a tank past 4 Km (+/-) anyway.

 

13 hours ago, __Renzo__ said:

Would help if planes always continuously render in. 

It goes both ways.

Tanks de-render aswell. They often sink in to the ground or rubber band back and forwards.

But that's a different topic and I guess we have to accept those game limitations for the moment.

 

13 hours ago, GNDM [email protected] said:

 

Type 93 is the top tier Spaa for Japan and it's next to worthless even in it's own BR range. 

 

You sure you want to die on that hill? 

Sure it's the end of the line SPAA for Japan, but that doesn't make it top tier. 

 

I was talking about 11.ish  SPAA like the Tunguska, Flarakrad, ITO, TOR-M1. 

Because they are the counterparts to the planes I was refering to (late F4s, F16s, MiG27, Tornados, Harrier GR.7 etc.).

 

But maybe it would be good if we clarify what exact kind of planes and CAS weaponary we are talking about.

 

 

13 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Planes have evasion and chaff/flares instead of cover. In the world of thermals, thats a better defensive mechanism.

Both useless against mouse guided SAM.

 

 

13 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Easiest SPAA? sure. But 8.0 is the only BR in this game where AA are actually better than the planes they face. For the rest of the game you are throwing tracers at the sky hoping for both critical hits and that no other plane is around to take advantage (and that even if you KILL a plane, it can't just turn and kill you while 'dead').

In my experience SPAA across all BRs do fine. In fact the non radar ones are more dangerous than the radar ones. Radar AA is easy to play, but very predictable. 

A well played non radar spaa simply blast you out of the sky with no warning, especially the modern ones (R3, BTR-ZD, ZSD63) but also the classic wirbel, Ostwinds, AMX13 40 DCA are scary.

 

I know you guys don't like CAS, but I my point of view planes are supposed to be superior. Otherwise they would cost as much SP as tanks.

 

It's not a rock, paper, scissor system. 

Sure there needs to be some balance, between planes, tanks and SPAA but it's just realistic and logic that planes have the edge over ground vehicles including AA.

 

 

[__Renzo__ 2,281]

36 minutes ago, ponnes said:

It goes both ways.

Tanks de-render aswell. They often sink in to the ground or rubber band back and forwards.

But that's a different topic and I guess we have to accept those game limitations for the moment.

However it's the planes that get the biggest advantage out of it. They can just stay out of render range until they are above the radar and by the time they get into render range it will be close to impossible to locate them due to SPAA scopes having a ridiculously narrow fov. 

 

There is a way to buff SPAA at top tier, however it's ahistorical. It would be to add a low level zoom option in the optic, which would have greater fov. 

[Stormwolf7 4,835]

Could also do with an Altitude indicator.. so I know whether this thing is at 300ft or 30,000 feet.

Pretty sure the Radar can tell you that.

[Zephoid 1,550]

22 minutes ago, ponnes said:

In my experience SPAA across all BRs do fine. In fact the non radar ones are more dangerous than the radar ones. Radar AA is easy to play, but very predictable. 

A well played non radar spaa simply blast you out of the sky with no warning, especially the modern ones (R3, BTR-ZD, ZSD63) but also the classic wirbel, Ostwinds, AMX13 40 DCA are scary.

 

I know you guys don't like CAS, but I my point of view planes are supposed to be superior. Otherwise they would cost as much SP as tanks.

 

It's not a rock, paper, scissor system. 

Sure there needs to be some balance, between planes, tanks and SPAA but it's just realistic and logic that planes have the edge over ground vehicles including AA.

 

 

There is a good reason few SPAA have >.3kdr. AA isn't doing fine, its getting slaughtered. And not just from the ground, aircraft are far more effective vs 40mm AA than 40mm AA is vs planes. And most nations are using 37/40mm AA across large sections of their tree. Look at the state of most nations at 7.0 where you start seeing jets. 

why is it logical that planes have the edge over ground? Thats rarely the case IRL. WW2 used strategic bombers despite their inaccuracy for a good reason. WW2 had very few tank kills by aircraft compared to the number of munitions expended. Attackers's bombs were inaccurate and rockets were more to disable mobility of tanks than to destroy them. 

Current era you can see what happens in Ukraine when the opposing side has AA. The game limits the battlefield to a postage stamp and therefore planes know where AA is, but IRL thats not the case. 

Spawn point cost isn't a justification of power. Opportunity cost plays a huge role in how games are won. If you have to have 2 AA spawning to kill 1 plane, then your team is losing because they are dedicating more manpower to a role that usually doesn't play a big part in winning games. Not only that, but in game you need 1 cap or an assists to generate enough spawn points to get a plane. Thats trivial.

[ponnes 472]

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

There is a good reason few SPAA have >.3kdr. AA isn't doing fine, its getting slaughtered. And not just from the ground, aircraft are far more effective vs 40mm AA than 40mm AA is vs planes. And most nations are using 37/40mm AA across large sections of their tree. Look at the state of most nations at 7.0 where you start seeing jets. 

40/37mm AA isnt bad, sure it takes practice, but once you get the hang of it you will hit planes reliably.

The most people just fail do get any result because they spam their guns without thinking.

No effort = no results.

 

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

why is it logical that planes have the edge over ground? Thats rarely the case IRL. WW2 used strategic bombers despite their inaccuracy for a good reason. WW2 had very few tank kills by aircraft compared to the number of munitions expended. Attackers's bombs were inaccurate and rockets were more to disable mobility of tanks than to destroy them. 

Planes and air dominace were and still are essential for a successful military operations. Planes like the Stukas, Il2s, Fw190F, P47s played an important role in WW2, just like more modern planes like the A10 or drones nowadays.

In warthunder we only focus on the tanks themselves and we need to destroy them completely, while IRL it was often enough to damage the tanks externaly, for a crew to abandon a tank. Taking out softer targets like supply trucks or supporting infantry was just as valuable as the tank itself, therefore precison was often not that important in the first place in WW2, but it was possible.

 

In the recent history laser and TV guided bombs and missiles proved to be very effective against tanks and therefore played a major role in wars like the golf war for example.

 

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Current era you can see what happens in Ukraine when the opposing side has AA. The game limits the battlefield to a postage stamp and therefore planes know where AA is, but IRL thats not the case. 

And thats why it is so important to leave the spawn. Bad SPAA players are super predictable, all they do is camp in the spawn. All you have to do is to position yourelf close to your teammates in the battlefield (obviously not 5m next to it) but as soon as a plane comes in for an attack run it will be a super easy target for you.

 

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Spawn point cost isn't a justification of power.

Actually it kinda is.

 

If a plane that cost 700SP would get counter easily by a 70SP AA whats the pint to spawn one in the first place?

2 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Opportunity cost plays a huge role in how games are won. If you have to have 2 AA spawning to kill 1 plane, then your team is losing because they are dedicating more manpower to a role that usually doesn't play a big part in winning games.

Its pointless to make assumptions like that. I could turn that around, to lets say it takes 5 SPAA (70SP) to take down one fighter (480SP). It would still be 350SP vs 480SP and this example is already an exaggeration. Usually manpower is pointless anyway, becasue its usually the top players with bigger lineups, who decide the games.  The majority of players dont play a big role in the game. Its usually 3-4 players who carry the game by actively pushing caps and doing kills, not the other 6-7 players that spent the entire game camping one street or corner, waiting for their teammates to get the caps and do all the work.

 

To sum it up:

quality over quantity.

 

Otherwise: If you cant beat them, join them.

Edited January 11 by ponnes

[Zephoid 1,550]

 

6 hours ago, ponnes said:

40/37mm AA isnt bad, sure it takes practice, but once you get the hang of it you will hit planes reliably.

The most people just fail do get any result because they spam their guns without thinking.

No effort = no results.

 

Planes and air dominace were and still are essential for a successful military operations. Planes like the Stukas, Il2s, Fw190F, P47s played an important role in WW2, just like more modern planes like the A10 or drones nowadays.

In warthunder we only focus on the tanks themselves and we need to destroy them completely, while IRL it was often enough to damage the tanks externaly, for a crew to abandon a tank. Taking out softer targets like supply trucks or supporting infantry was just as valuable as the tank itself, therefore precison was often not that important in the first place in WW2, but it was possible.

 

In the recent history laser and TV guided bombs and missiles proved to be very effective against tanks and therefore played a major role in wars like the golf war for example.

 

And thats why it is so important to leave the spawn. Bad SPAA players are super predictable, all they do is camp in the spawn. All you have to do is to position yourelf close to your teammates in the battlefield (obviously not 5m next to it) but as soon as a plane comes in for an attack run it will be a super easy target for you.

 

Actually it kinda is.

 

If a plane that cost 700SP would get counter easily by a 70SP AA whats the pint to spawn one in the first place?

Its pointless to make assumptions like that. I could turn that around, to lets say it takes 5 SPAA (70SP) to take down one fighter (480SP). It would still be 350SP vs 480SP and this example is already an exaggeration. Usually manpower is pointless anyway, because its usually the top players with bigger lineups, who decide the games.  The majority of players dont play a big role in the game. Its usually 3-4 players who carry the game by actively pushing caps and doing kills, not the other 6-7 players that spent the entire game camping one street or corner, waiting for their teammates to get the caps and do all the work.

 

To sum it up:

quality over quantity.

 

Otherwise: If you cant beat them, join them.

40mm ARE bad. They take serious practice to use and even then are ineffective beyond 2km. On the flip side, planes are so brain dead that the ground is a more significant enemy than AA fire while they still >1kdr. 

Planes played a STRATEGIC role, not a  tactical one. As you said, hitting soft targets. Not bombing tanks with bombs that approach laser guided munitions in accuracy (mouse aim, 3rd person). Literally anyone who has written a book on WW2 air strategy point out that Air 2 Tank kills were rare and not a priority. 

Its amazing you highlight why AA is important while then saying it should be weak. Yes, laser guided munitions are good vs tanks. Thats why the first 2 days of air operations in Desert Storm were SEAD and cruise missile based. Planes are force multipliers. One plane can kill multiple ground vehicles far easier than one AA can kill multiple planes and its proven game after game. 

Spawn points RARELY determine the victor in a game. Most people don't run out of spawn points by the time they stop spawning. So your argument that spawn points should balance craft is both ignorant and absurd. More players often determine the outcome of games. I've seen plenty of teams that half 2/3 the kills of the other team but win anyways just through respawning more times than the other team. Yes, running out of spawn points can influence that, but is in the minority. Its truly trivial to get enough spawn points to respawn 2 times, but watch how often you see 1 and 2 death leavers across all teirs. Dedicating 5 people to kill a single aircraft is how you lose vehicles that can cap points effectively. 

The point in spawning in said 700sp aircraft is that if they DON'T have an AA, you kill 2-3 tanks easily (i've seen 8 kills with a 3x30m DO 335 before reloading). Then potentially go on and kill an aircraft after that, as many attackers can. 

Edited January 11 by Zephoid

[elite930 188]

10 hours ago, Zephoid said:

 

40mm ARE bad. They take serious practice to use and even then are ineffective beyond 2km. On the flip side, planes are so brain dead that the ground is a more significant enemy than AA fire while they still >1kdr. 

Planes played a STRATEGIC role, not a  tactical one. As you said, hitting soft targets. Not bombing tanks with bombs that approach laser guided munitions in accuracy (mouse aim, 3rd person). Literally anyone who has written a book on WW2 air strategy point out that Air 2 Tank kills were rare and not a priority. 

Its amazing you highlight why AA is important while then saying it should be weak. Yes, laser guided munitions are good vs tanks. Thats why the first 2 days of air operations in Desert Storm were SEAD and cruise missile based. Planes are force multipliers. One plane can kill multiple ground vehicles far easier than one AA can kill multiple planes and its proven game after game. 

Spawn points RARELY determine the victor in a game. Most people don't run out of spawn points by the time they stop spawning. So your argument that spawn points should balance craft is both ignorant and absurd. More players often determine the outcome of games. I've seen plenty of teams that half 2/3 the kills of the other team but win anyways just through respawning more times than the other team. Yes, running out of spawn points can influence that, but is in the minority. Its truly trivial to get enough spawn points to respawn 2 times, but watch how often you see 1 and 2 death leavers across all teirs. Dedicating 5 people to kill a single aircraft is how you lose vehicles that can cap points effectively. 

The point in spawning in said 700sp aircraft is that if they DON'T have an AA, you kill 2-3 tanks easily (i've seen 8 kills with a 3x30m DO 335 before reloading). Then potentially go on and kill an aircraft after that, as many attackers can. 

 

Just wanted to simply say this. Expecting SPAA in 8-9,7 BR work to counter vehicles ways where these vehicles were not intended to fight is idiotic. Main role for sample ww2 and cannon based SPAA was not primarily kill target but that was added bonus. But stop enemy aircraft succeeding their task of bombing high importance target.

 

For SPAA to be successful its tasks are.

 

- Maim enemy plane. Force plane to return back base.

- Make pilot fail to active their task because task is to dangerous pilot to do. Shoot toward plane so much that plane pilot will be in terror flying that bucket full of holes.

- Make enemy pilot waste their ordinance etc. When pilot even attemps drop bombs it will miss because fear effect of getting shot by spaa.

- Destroy plane.

 

For sample Soviet unions shilkas "zsu-23-4"  role was never engage targets over 2km over. But make protective lair toward ground forces as missile based systems forced planes to go below 2km range. Then shilka would do its job take out planes when it could. But protecting ground forces and high importance areas was main purpose. But main problem in game is. Game expects this piece of garbage combat drones with 10km missile range and other stuff. When these were combined arms vehicles. These were not made to be alone kill all. But problem is game BR forces vehicles to fight in envieoments where these wont make sense. No way shilka will be running alone. There should be 5 of them with 9K35 Strela-10 etc back. Even that SPAA is broken as it cannot shoot helicopters and rarely hits vehicles what can counter it.

 

Game needs to add something more for these vehicles order to function. As currently these vehicles are waste of money and space. At least what i own are. Also whole because its cheaper it needs to die moreis so wrong. Most of things in war is typically taken out by cheaper thing. How many bullets do you need to kill soldier? answer is = 1. How costly death of soldier is to army. Way more than single bullet. How expensive single missile is vs tank or jet. Typically way cheaper.

[ponnes 472]

OK, to sum this thread up:

 

1. It's too hard to kill/hit planes with non radar SPAA.

 

2. High tier SPAA have a hard time spotting aircrafts, despite having a radar.

 

@Iraq22306

@Zephoid

 

Solution:

1. Learn to aim

 

2. Use your eyes

 

 

 

[Iraq22306 560]

1 minute ago, ponnes said:

OK, to sum this thread up:

 

1. It's too hard to kill/hit planes with non radar SPAA.

 

2. High tier SPAA have a hard time spotting aircrafts, despite having a radar.

 

@Iraq22306

@Zephoid

 

Solution:

1. Learn to aim

 

2. Use your eyes

 

 

 

it is always a skill issue when it comes to SPAA vs Planes.

But when it is the other way around then the SPAAs are overperforming.

 

Tell me, How can I kill something that is outside of my guns range? outside of my eyes capabilities, I don't think any player would be able to spot a plane flying 10kms in the sky, nor it is efficent way to kill a plane.

Chances are if you say it, you won't be able to do anything anyway.

not to mention the rendering problem.

 

What you are asking is outside any human capabilities, while mr plane can snipe me outside of space and time continuum without even flinching in his safe haven

an average plane will easily swipe 2 tanks before suiciding, while the average SPAA can barely kill any plane in it's life time.

that clearly shows how easy to use planes vs SPAAs. it is quite impossible for an issue to be a skill issue if 90% of players have problem doing it, while for planes 90% will easily be able to takedown 2 tanks.

 

 

Learn to aim, Yes anything beyond 2km for planes in non missile SPAA is impossible to hit, not only the plane will be able to see the tracers and change direction but it would also be able to pinpoint the SPAA.

 

Use your eyes, I'll agree on that on one condition, planes 3rd person and aimpods are removed, lets see how "skillful" the average plane user.

 

[ponnes 472]

@Iraq22306 So I guess the only solution left is to use a fighter plane.

 

Unless you have a more viable/better solution for "our" problem.

 

[Adr_Farling 228]

3 hours ago, ponnes said:

 

2. High tier SPAA have a hard time spotting aircrafts, despite having a radar.

Good luck finding targets which are above the radar.

 

3 hours ago, ponnes said:

2. Use your eyes

Good luck using your eyes on a plane that is so far away and up high, that it doesn’t render for you.

 

3 hours ago, ponnes said:

1. Learn to aim

Good luck aiming at targets who are more than 1km (for non radar) or 2km (for with radar) away from you.

 

2 hours ago, ponnes said:

So I guess the only solution left is to use a fighter plane.

You know not everyone wants to grind planes to play ground battles.

[ponnes 472]

40 minutes ago, Adr_Farling said:

Good luck finding targets which are above the radar.

 

Good luck using your eyes on a plane that is so far away and up high, that it doesn’t render for you.

 

Good luck aiming at targets who are more than 1km (for non radar) or 2km (for with radar) away from you.

 

You know not everyone wants to grind planes to play ground battles.

In short: skill issues