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Lets talk about the "New" Gepard 1A2


Lord_Prism
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So as many of you may have seen the German TT got a new AA at 9.7, huzzah! Unfortunately, it seems that Gaijin has done the most half-baked job on asset flipping the regular Gepard, doing only about half of the changes the 1A2 received. Currently the only difference between the 1A2 and standard Gepard is the LRF (super helpful that one) and the Stinger missiles duct-taped to the side of the guns. 

So my question is where is the improved radar? Where are the NVDs, or the FAPDS?

 

 

For a game that prides itself on spending time researching and modeling vehicles well, over the course of months or even years, this is rather sad to an insulting degree

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Yeah it should get the fapds and the radar at least. Stingers are terrible against helicopters because they don´t lock. A better radar with a longer range on the ballistic calculation and a faster round would be really great against helis.

 

31 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

Maybe those might be left out on purpose because Germany doesn't need yet another 10.0/3 SPAA ? :good:

 

FAPDS is the standart ammo for the gepard 1a2 even if it changes the br to 10.0 (That would at least replace the Flkpz)

Edited by Chris4win
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31 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

Maybe those might be left out on purpose because Germany doesn't need yet another 10.0/3 SPAA ? :good:

Gun AA at 9.7 is already rough if you don't have HE-VT, and the less said about stingers the better. 

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38 minutes ago, Chris4win said:

FAPDS is the standart ammo for the gepard 1a2 even if it changes the br to 10.0 (That would at least replace the Flkpz)

How much penetration that round would have ?

 

32 minutes ago, Lord_Prism said:

Gun AA at 9.7 is already rough if you don't have HE-VT, and the less said about stingers the better. 

I think it could be worse, just look at SIDAM 25 Mistral sitting at 10.0 :lol2:.

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12 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

How much penetration that round would have ?

 

I think it could be worse, just look at SIDAM 25 Mistral sitting at 10.0 :lol2:.

 

Would have around the same penetration like the apds. But its main use is against air targets. Faster rounds are easier to aim + with a better range on the lead radar would be a deadly combo against helicopters.

 

They should downtier the SIDAM. It shouldn´t fight ka50s

Edited by Chris4win
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36 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

think it could be worse, just look at SIDAM 25 Mistral sitting at 10.0 :lol2:.

Thats more Gaijins unbridled hatred for Italy than anything 

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2 hours ago, Chris4win said:

Would have around the same penetration like the apds. But its main use is against air targets. Faster rounds are easier to aim + with a better range on the lead radar would be a deadly combo against helicopters.

I think Gaijin doesn't really like the idea of Gepard carrying 600+ rounds of FAPDS with 100mm+ of pen. I don't know why though, considering that's a 9.7 vehicle. People should make a bug report on that to see if it's really forgotten about or is it made on purpose.

 

2 hours ago, Lord_Prism said:

Thats more Gaijins unbridled hatred for Italy than anything 

I think Italy is the nation with the most questionable BR decisions ever, like half of their stuff is barely usable at that BR.

What's the deal with Stingers and other manpads, are they bugged or just artificially nerfed ?

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18 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

What's the deal with Stingers and other manpads, are they bugged or just artificially nerfed ?

The latter. Gaijin found a document on MANPAD Strela and used that to nerf Stingers - even though they're pretty different. There were reports that used actual Stinger documents done, but I can't find them anymore so I assume they've been poofed out of existence.

 

Funnily Gaijin nerfed it again - this time to ~660m/s if I remember correctly (from 1000m/s) even though the correct velocity is ~730m/s - which is... interesting to say the least lol.

Edited by Holouu
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27 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

What's the deal with Stingers and other manpads, are they bugged or just artificially nerfed ?

G overload is artificial nerf, the pathing however I have no idea, given every MANPAD wants to uppercut the plane rather than intercept, the Stinger acts like an all aspect 9B where slight maneuvering convulses the missile into a mental institution 

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2 hours ago, Holouu said:

The latter. Gaijin found a document on MANPAD Strela and used that to nerf Stingers - even though they're pretty different. There were reports that used actual Stinger documents done, but I can't find them anymore so I assume they've been poofed out of existence.

 

Funnily Gaijin nerfed it again - this time to ~660m/s if I remember correctly (from 1000m/s) even though the correct velocity is ~730m/s - which is... interesting to say the least lol.

 

2 hours ago, Lord_Prism said:

G overload is artificial nerf, the pathing however I have no idea, given every MANPAD wants to uppercut the plane rather than intercept, the Stinger acts like an all aspect 9B where slight maneuvering convulses the missile into a mental institution 

That's weird. They were probably trying to make Stingers worse on purpose so they fit in the game better (aka. not bunching up several SPAAs at the same BR), so I'm curious how worse would Stingers be (in their unbugged/unnerfed state) than lets say Roland 3 found on 10.3 German SPAA ?

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5 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

 

That's weird. They were probably trying to make Stingers worse on purpose so they fit in the game better (aka. not bunching up several SPAAs at the same BR), so I'm curious how worse would Stingers be (in their unbugged/unnerfed state) than lets say Roland 3 found on 10.3 German SPAA ?

Effectively, still significantly worse. Since they are F&F they depend on coded-in pathing, while Roland 3s can be corrected mid-course by the player, giving them greater allowable G-limit and better pathing towards the target. Additionally, out-rolling Stingers is possible, out-rolling Rolands isn't (again, AI/code vs human pathing and target leading).

Edited by Holouu
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Just now, MotorolaCRO said:

 

That's weird. They were probably trying to make Stingers worse on purpose so they fit in the game better (aka. not bunching up several SPAAs at the same BR), so I'm curious how worse would Stingers be (in their unbugged/unnerfed state) than lets say Roland 3 found on 10.3 German SPAA ?

Far shorter range than a roland, but would behave closer to the TY90 or Strela we have in game but also shorter range. My main issue is the incredibly stupid pathing, more Gs would definitely help, but with the recent uncaging of seekers that's less of an issue than it was before. They behave like All-aspect 9Bs, where any maneuvering on the part of the target aircraft makes the missile miss completely, also the Stinger should be much more resistant to flares than it is currently 

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as i remember someone already report that Stinger should have 22G overload 

someone already did report about it but Gaijin being incompetent and say more info require well they can look the combat proven somewhere in eastern europe of they want and hell even if it did, they just gonna throw other card called "Balance" like what they did to F4F

Ozelot Stinger missile - various performance issues // Gaijin.net // Issues

Edited by ARK_BOI
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@Smin1080p Is the FAPDS round still not finished or why didn´t the gepard 1a2 not get it? It was the main ammo for it and was one of the major upgrades for the 1a2. Other upgrades are missing too like nvd

Edited by Chris4win
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4 minutes ago, Chris4win said:

@Smin1080p Is the FAPDS round still not finished or why didn´t the gepard 1a2 not get it? It was the main ammo for it and was one of the major upgrades for the 1a2. Other upgrades are missing too like nvd

 

Rounds are issued at the discretion of the developers. Vehicles may not always have every shell available too them as they can sometimes be added later if required for balancing. Currently its intended for this vehicle to not have FAPDS.

 

As for any other issues, please submit a report, and we can pass them on for review. 

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Just now, Smin1080p said:

 

Rounds are issued at the discretion of the developers. Vehicles may not always have every shell available too them as they can sometimes be added later if required for balancing. Currently its intended for this vehicle to not have FAPDS.

 

As for any other issues, please submit a report, and we can pass them on for review. 

 

Thanks for the answer. 

Sad that the fapds will not be in game anytime soon

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20 hours ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Rounds are issued at the discretion of the developers. Vehicles may not always have every shell available too them as they can sometimes be added later if required for balancing. Currently its intended for this vehicle to not have FAPDS.

 

As for any other issues, please submit a report, and we can pass them on for review. 

 

@Smin1080pbelt composition is also at discretion of the developers no? So how about giving the Gepard a 1/4 FAPDS belt as the 2S38 (also a dedicated SPAA vehicle irl) has a full APFSDS belt with double the pen and HE-VT at the same BR?

SPAA should not be better than tank destroyers I definitely understand that, but what justifies exceptions like ZSU-57, 2S38, Falcon, AMX DCA then?

Those have either a full or at least 1/4 AP belt with very high penetration.

 

It's a 9.7 vehicle and four stingers do not add the stopping power to justify such a BR. The LAV-AD has almost 100mm pen on its gatling and 16 Stingers but can also take Hydras while still having double the Gepards stinger load.

Even the Sidam has 6 missiles that are better than Stinger, but that vehicles BR is also questionable imo.

Edited by NoodleCup31
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FAPDS (DM33) does better than SAP (DM13) against 0° RHA but not quite at the level as APDS (DM23) and against angled RHA and spaced armor arrays, its penetration performance is severely limited due to the core's intended ability to fragment well on light protection. Unfortunately I don't have any numbers to provide and in-game values are too high for DM13 and DM23 to speculate against.

 

For game purposes I think they would have to create new code entirely to get somewhat close to FAPDS damage potential without overdoing it. In my opinion it's going to happen, just not very quickly. PUMA's AHEAD is in the same category even if that one could be solved by proximity fuze mechanics for now.

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On 25/12/2022 at 13:39, pasiasd said:

AHEAD is in the same category even if that one could be solved by proximity fuze mechanics for now.

But they already said that won't happen.

But how does the 2S38s programmable airburst shell suddenly become HE-VT in game?

Edited by NoodleCup31
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On 23/12/2022 at 17:13, NoodleCup31 said:

 

@Smin1080pbelt composition is also at discretion of the developers no? So how about giving the Gepard a 1/4 FAPDS belt as the 2S38 (also a dedicated SPAA vehicle irl) has a full APFSDS belt with double the pen and HE-VT at the same BR?

SPAA should not be better than tank destroyers I definitely understand that, but what justifies exceptions like ZSU-57, 2S38, Falcon, AMX DCA then?

Those have either a full or at least 1/4 AP belt with very high penetration.

 

It's a 9.7 vehicle and four stingers do not add the stopping power to justify such a BR. The LAV-AD has almost 100mm pen on its gatling and 16 Stingers but can also take Hydras while still having double the Gepards stinger load.

Even the Sidam has 6 missiles that are better than Stinger, but that vehicles BR is also questionable imo.

 

Thought the same. Others have this kind of penetration and more. But Gepard at 9.7 is limited  as only one. I really wounder why. Where were the concerns that the LAV, Falcon etc have this kind of pen? 2S38 anyone? Its sometimes so hard to understand why for Germany there are sometimes very unfair double standards :(

 

Why is it valid for other SPAA's and not for the German one?

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6 hours ago, NoodleCup31 said:

But they already said that won't happen.

But how does the 2S38s programmable airburst shell suddenly become HE-VT in game?

Well.. "Not happening" Gaijin often equals to doing it later, just not saying so. It's probably not very high up in priority in any case.

We all know why; 2S38 is a premium.

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It needs better ammo, time to get FAPDS for it.

 

Its slower, very sluggish to steer, has less stingers, low penetration, no thermals, no irst lock, no NVD, no scouting, no VT fused shells, no proxy fused shells. Thats the total opposite of 2S38, LAV and  SPAA vehicles around this BR. Its not really understandable why its left out with its high pen ammunition as sole SPAA vehicle among its competitors from other nations. Its has alot downsides, so it won't overperform.

 

We should talk about the radar as well. Its not possible to hit a plane or chopper when aiming for the green lead marker. The radar lock seems to be too inprecise/bugged. The lockbox is often next to the target, instead of locking the target itself. Its still not possible to lock low flying vehicles. Is this the new improved radar? Not working at all? While irl its proven to shot down even small, low flying cruise missiles and drones. With like 2 short bursts?

 

So main issues are:

 

- Useless radar, just for detection, lead is bugged. No lock of low flying aircraft possible.

- No top tier ammo.

- Empty Stinger box on the back. Means just 4 Stingers, no reload.

- No kind of NVD or thermal. I remember to read that the batch delivered to Qatar had thermal optics, was exclusively demanded by the sheiks. Cause no thermal makes no sense for post 2000's vehicles. Thats not the 80ties Gepard anymore (also see the Radar complaint, seems to be the same radar as the old Gepard).

- It appears very unmobile, is this really a Leopard 1 chassis?

Edited by Thodin
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