I'm getting burned out from being low tier in matches so often.

[KiloZulu 114]

It's not to say that I don't get some matches where I'm 130+, but my sense is that the great majority of battles I play find me being heavily up-tiered.  I did an experiment tonight, in which I played a 4.3 tank, with a 4.0 fighter, two 3.3 tanks, and a 3.0 SPAA in my line-up (Japan.)  Three of the battles I had a starting SP of 110, the remainder I was at 100.  I played the battles consecutively, although I took breaks between a couple of them to see if I could shake up the player mix a bit.  This isn't really tied to any particular BR or nation on my end, as far as I can see.  I just generally recognize that I'm going to be low BR most of the time.  High, medium, low tier - it should all balance out over time, right?  It doesn't make sense that all players would be low tier more often than not, does it?  Can individual players get shafted?

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

1 hour ago, KiloZulu said:

It's not to say that I don't get some matches where I'm 130+, but my sense is that the great majority of battles I play find me being heavily up-tiered.  I did an experiment tonight, in which I played a 4.3 tank, with a 4.0 fighter, two 3.3 tanks, and a 3.0 SPAA in my line-up (Japan.)  Three of the battles I had a starting SP of 110, the remainder I was at 100.  I played the battles consecutively, although I took breaks between a couple of them to see if I could shake up the player mix a bit.  This isn't really tied to any particular BR or nation on my end, as far as I can see.  I just generally recognize that I'm going to be low BR most of the time.  High, medium, low tier - it should all balance out over time, right?  It doesn't make sense that all players would be low tier more often than not, does it?  Can individual players get shafted?

 

First things first: What BR the other vehicles have is of no importance. Your highest BR is 4.3, that is the one that counts. You could make them all 4.3 if you wish.

 

Your statistical placement expectance value depends on the mix of players in the pool. If your BR is at a fringe of a lump, you are likely being thrown into the same pool more often. This may be to your advantage or disadvantage. By looking at the trees, rank 3 (task/battle pass territory) usually start at around 4.3. So the task people will be a lump of people starting ~4.3 and higher. So you play at the low end of a lump and hence will be thrown into those matches most of the time. Below you is far less action so you will rarely see 3.3s in battle.

 

(Matches are not made up with the purpose to place you equally into all categories from top tier to bottem tier. At 1.0, you are always bottom, at 11.3, you are always top. Nothing that can be done about that.)

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dodo_Dud

[CoffeeBean100 2,893]

And if you ARE bottom tier.. so are 80% of the enemy team.. with just 4 per side max BR, the rest made up of -1 to -0.3 difference.  This might be skewed if someone has a higher BR vehicle they do not spawn (i.e. a plane or vehicle they just never actually spawn, maybe a heavy they don't want in an up-tier).

I believe there is a lot of information in the Community Wiki pages and other areas of this forum.

Edited December 18, 2022 by CoffeeBean100

[SilkMonger 3,054]

I tried to suggest they make some top tier matches all top tier, but that went nowhere.  (mods did not approve)

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

49 minutes ago, SilkMonger said:

I tried to suggest they make some top tier matches all top tier, but that went nowhere.  (mods did not approve)

 

AFAIK, they can make matches higher then actual top tier. Which boils down to roughly the same.

[KiloZulu 114]

6 hours ago, CoffeeBean100 said:

And if you ARE bottom tier.. so are 80% of the enemy team.. with just 4 per side max BR, the rest made up of -1 to -0.3 difference.  This might be skewed if someone has a higher BR vehicle they do not spawn (i.e. a plane or vehicle they just never actually spawn, maybe a heavy they don't want in an up-tier).

I believe there is a lot of information in the Community Wiki pages and other areas of this forum.

I've always found that particular argument to offer little comfort.  Put another way, 20% of the enemy team have vehicles at my tier, and 80% have something better.  That's not really my point, though.  My point is that 80% of the enemy team surpassed me in 70% of yesterday's matches, and 60% were still better in the remaining 30% of battles.  While I gave the example of the ten battles played yesterday with a specific line-up, it's important to note that I play up and down the BR's, with major and minor nations.  I don't believe that those ten battles reflect the actual average, as I do see battles where I am at 130 or 150 once in a while.  They are much more rare, however, and these ten battles really reflect that.

 

What this means is that I spend most of my play time in WT rolling out with a rather fatalistic expectation, anymore.  I am relegated to a support position each time I roll out with my best tank, hoping to give my team enough of an edge that they can win the battle for me.  I play my heaviest tanks as lumbering light tanks, peeking around corners rather than leading the push for a capture point.  If the Snail is not giving players a balanced experience where they get equal opportunity to shine, then who is getting the fun experience with lots of down-tiers, and why?

[_Zekken 706]

Ive never honestly cared about being bottom tier, ESPECIALLY for japan. The only time it really sucks is the few BRs where you go from WW2 to cold war and stabs start becoming common (~6.7-7.0 being uptiered to 8.0), and where thermals start becoming common in an uptier. (~8.0-8.7 being uptiered to 9.0-9.7) 

 

At 4.3? Nah. Not for japan at least. Chi-Nu II has probably one of the best guns at its BR. That thing cuts through the front of Tiger 1s with zero problems. and you better get used to that gun because its used up until 5.0 with the Chi-Ri. Frankly theres practically no difference between the Chi Nu II and the Chi-tos. In my 4.7 lineup the Chi-tos I usually spawn in last.

 

My first spawn is usually in the M24 Chaffee, and thats a tank I will happily uptier it to my 5.7 lineup even and still have no problems, I mostly play my 4.7 lineup and even in a max uptier, the 3.7 chaffee is usually first spawn. 

 

 

The thing about war thunder is, everything can die in 1 shot, no matter what it is. If you know where and how to shoot each enemy, regardless of how powerful your gun is, you can still easily kill any enemy tank, so an uptier really doesnt matter much to me. Its just whatever, if im in 4.3 it means okay Im just shooting tigers now instead of Panzer 4s. thats fine. 

 

If you take the time to learn how and where to shoot, how to flank and use concealment, and play each map by ear instead of trying to rush in and go head on with enemy top tier heavy tanks, whether you are in an uptier or not becomes irrelevant. 

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

1 hour ago, KiloZulu said:

If the Snail is not giving players a balanced experience where they get equal opportunity to shine, then who is getting the fun experience with lots of down-tiers, and why?

 

Obviously, the top BR players are always top tier. Also players who pick a BR that is at the upper edge of a player lump. But picking the low entry level for tank rank III will bring you right into the thick.

[CoffeeBean100 2,893]

2 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

and 80% have something better

Most vehicles can make it that so they are not "better enough" to make it an issue.  The way you use vehicles is much more important than their BR, and I am not talking of extreme situations but just with vehicles of similar BR.  Vehicles vary and you learn this, hence why generally you don't use a heavy in the full up tier, which is why lineups exist.  But you can; I would probably not use the Churchill VII in the full up tier but I have no issues with the Tiger E (well, the Japanese one) by using it more like a medium tank (I know its strengths and weaknesses).

 

2 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

I am relegated to a support position each time I roll out with my best tank, hoping to give my team enough of an edge that they can win the battle for me.

"Relegated" is a bit harsh.  Playing to help your team or make use of enemies weaknesses (looking left and right is actually amazingly vacant from many players) is what you are doing, and knowing the enemies you face and how to handle the vehicle you are using is.. well.. just playing War Thunder.  Your "support" role is a very important in actually winning, as many are just yoloing and enjoying the bangs and whizzes.  I have a terrible habit of lone wolfing in no matter what vehicle but I sort of know what I am doing.

 

2 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

If the Snail is not giving players a balanced experience where they get equal opportunity to shine, then who is getting the fun experience with lots of down-tiers, and why?

I get a huge mix of all BR positions, I just use what works in those situations.  All just down to experience, and try not NOT to think about it being impossible as it will make it feel that way; some of my best or fun matches I am in the full up-tier in very no-meta vehicles and can do pretty well.  Sadly you do have to take the rough with the smooth and even if you are the "top dog" that does not mean you are going to do very well or even find it simple to play.  Some vehicles might shine, but many players will know their vehicles well.

The game even gives us the ability, in the up tier if we are not with the best of lineups, to really quicky go into a fighter and stop the enemy from smacking your team with CAS... problem solved.  You don't have to do it every time but there are options, and fighters can really hold their own in GFRB with even lower BR planes if you know how to fly; you just attempted to counter a possible thorn in your own team's side!

Edited December 18, 2022 by CoffeeBean100

[KiloZulu 114]

It doesn't seem that responses are focusing on the simple fact that I am being placed at low BR in most matches.  It's not about how I play while low BR, or how good my tank is regardless of its BR, it's the fact that I have to overcome the disadvantage of being low BR much more often than not.  It's not about the nation, or the particular tank I used in order to test my experience.  It is that my experience is overwhelmingly of being low BR in matches.  For the longest time I was willing to believe that it was just my perception, but recently I've been keeping a much closer eye on it, and realizing that I really was in the bottom half rather than the top.  It culminated in my 10 battle test last night and this post.  It throws out several battles immediately preceding the test, where I had a higher BR line-up and was 100 in all of those.

 

I've started coming up with conspiracy theories, like they have an algorithm to place players at low BR if they have a booster or wager active, in order to thwart their advancement.

[KiloZulu 114]

2 hours ago, _Zekken said:

Ive never honestly cared about being bottom tier, ESPECIALLY for japan. The only time it really sucks is the few BRs where you go from WW2 to cold war and stabs start becoming common (~6.7-7.0 being uptiered to 8.0), and where thermals start becoming common in an uptier. (~8.0-8.7 being uptiered to 9.0-9.7) 

 

At 4.3? Nah. Not for japan at least. Chi-Nu II has probably one of the best guns at its BR. That thing cuts through the front of Tiger 1s with zero problems. and you better get used to that gun because its used up until 5.0 with the Chi-Ri. Frankly theres practically no difference between the Chi Nu II and the Chi-tos. In my 4.7 lineup the Chi-tos I usually spawn in last.

 

My first spawn is usually in the M24 Chaffee, and thats a tank I will happily uptier it to my 5.7 lineup even and still have no problems, I mostly play my 4.7 lineup and even in a max uptier, the 3.7 chaffee is usually first spawn. 

 

 

The thing about war thunder is, everything can die in 1 shot, no matter what it is. If you know where and how to shoot each enemy, regardless of how powerful your gun is, you can still easily kill any enemy tank, so an uptier really doesnt matter much to me. Its just whatever, if im in 4.3 it means okay Im just shooting tigers now instead of Panzer 4s. thats fine. 

 

If you take the time to learn how and where to shoot, how to flank and use concealment, and play each map by ear instead of trying to rush in and go head on with enemy top tier heavy tanks, whether you are in an uptier or not becomes irrelevant. 

Yes, Japan and the minor nations are a special kind of grind.  In Japan's case, their low-tier vehicles are horrible: grind.  They don't have many vehicles in their tech tree, so you're often stuck with wild BR ranges in your line-ups: grind.  Many of available tanks are copy/pastes from other tech trees that you've probably already researched: grind.  I would also say that the lack of diversity from the smaller tech trees makes for a grind.

 

My attitude towards being low-tier has long been nonchalant.  I'd see the BR and adjust my gameplay to suit what was needed.  Always having to adjust my gameplay to suit the fact that I'm low BR, however, is really starting to wear on me.  It gets old.  It has gotten old.  I'm fed up with my experience being that I have to put up with this disadvantage so often.

[Despeao 947]

You're getting thrown into Germany 5.3 with that huge line up so playing 4.3 is pointless.

I personally don't play uptiers anymore, on any tier. If I see it costs 100sp to spawn I leave immediatly and pick another BR in another nation to play. Full uptiers are there simply to frustrate people and in some BR / line ups it makes the game really unbereable.

[CoffeeBean100 2,893]

58 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

I've started coming up with conspiracy theories

 

Well, best of luck 

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

56 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

It doesn't seem that responses are focusing on the simple fact that I am being placed at low BR in most matches.

 

You seem to ignore those, which do.

 

[MotorolaCRO 755]

44 minutes ago, Despeao said:

I personally don't play uptiers anymore, on any tier. If I see it costs 100sp to spawn I leave immediatly and pick another BR in another nation to play. Full uptiers are there simply to frustrate people and in some BR / line ups it makes the game really unbereable.

Play top tier then, you are the top dog there every single game. 

[KiloZulu 114]

22 minutes ago, Dodo_Dud said:

 

You seem to ignore those, which do.

 

Ultimately I found your response unsatisfactory.  The notion that I'm playing at a BR which is at the bottom of a "lump" is very problematic.  Remember that I stated that I experience this across the spectrum of BR's, and that my test just provided some verification of the situation.  For your answer to have merit, it would mean that I somehow play at the bottom of a lot of "lumps."  More importantly, however, if the developers are causing such a situation where certain BR's will almost always find themselves at low BR, they should be taking steps to address the imbalance.  If you can point to a valid cause for such an imbalance, the devs should already be aware of it and working to fix it, and we shouldn't just shrug it off as if that's the way things are meant to be (not saying you're doing that.)

 

Edit: Hey Dodo_Dud - thank you for taking the time to offer a response.  I do appreciate the feedback, in case what stated above sounded less than positive.

Edited December 18, 2022 by KiloZulu

[KiloZulu 114]

3 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

Play top tier then, you are the top dog there every single game. 

Up until very recently, I avoided top tier.  Given that thermal vision negated concealment, laser rangefinders and stabilizers negated a lot of need for player accuracy, the speed of MBT's, etc., it just felt like too much of a chaotic free-for-all, where the first person to shoot wins in every engagement.  I cut off playing beyond about 8.0 until a friend finally dragged me, kicking and screaming, into higher ranks.  All of my preconceptions have held true, except that I am enjoying it - mostly because I have to throw out most of my low BR tactics and adjust for the meta.

[Despeao 947]

16 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

Play top tier then, you are the top dog there every single game. 

I don't find top tier to be a good experience, so many things that can kill you, thermals, AFSDS, drones, etc. I find the game pretty good and somewhat balanced until 9.0, 10 at max but I played my share of top tier. I remember when IS-4 was top tier, that was great.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Despeao

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

Just now, KiloZulu said:

Remember that I stated that I experience this across the spectrum of BR's, and that my test just provided some verification of the situation.

You never gave any other specific numbers.

You also did not make clear what frequencies you actually expect. In a regular match 0-4 players are top tier. So your chance to be top tier based of a random draw assumption is much less than 25%.

 

3 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

More importantly, however, if the developers are causing such a situation where certain BR's will almost always find themselves at low BR, they should be taking steps to address the imbalance.

They choice is that of the players. If hardly anyone plays below your BR, few matches are created below you, with few top tier seats open and many many applicants. You will not get lucky often at the low end cliff.

 

7 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

If you can point to a valid cause for such an imbalance, the devs should already be aware of it and working to fix it,

The developers have no interest to have the task farming moving down further in BR. And why should they "fix" it anyway, they created these numbers on purpose because they want it this way. We can only speculate as to why they like it this way.

 

1 hour ago, KiloZulu said:

I've started coming up with conspiracy theories, like they have an algorithm to place players at low BR if they have a booster or wager active, in order to thwart their advancement.

You may do that and it would be difficult to either prove or disprove this theory. I put my money where my mouth is and play my SL boosters where I think I will get a good placement (top of a lump). And that works statistically fine. So I have no reason to believe in universal conspiracies here. But I can't rule them out completely either.

[_Zekken 706]

2 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

It doesn't seem that responses are focusing on the simple fact that I am being placed at low BR in most matches.  It's not about how I play while low BR, or how good my tank is regardless of its BR, it's the fact that I have to overcome the disadvantage of being low BR much more often than not.  It's not about the nation, or the particular tank I used in order to test my experience.  It is that my experience is overwhelmingly of being low BR in matches.  For the longest time I was willing to believe that it was just my perception, but recently I've been keeping a much closer eye on it, and realizing that I really was in the bottom half rather than the top.  It culminated in my 10 battle test last night and this post.  It throws out several battles immediately preceding the test, where I had a higher BR line-up and was 100 in all of those.

 

I've started coming up with conspiracy theories, like they have an algorithm to place players at low BR if they have a booster or wager active, in order to thwart their advancement.

We have though, you just ignored it.  Your inference is based off of "feel" and a few games tested in a BR bracket that happens to be exactly 1.0 lower than one of the most popular BR brackets in the game. Drop to 4.0 and you'll probably find your results a lot more favourable. Heck go up to 5.7 and you'll probably find similar favourable results as well. This is not something gaijin can control, certain BR brackets with certain vehicles just naturally become popular. 

 

 

As for disadvantages, so does 2/3 of the players in every game you are bottom tier in. Its not just you. Every single player in this game gets plenty of bottom tier games, all you have to do is learn where to aim. Then the Spooky Tiger 1 wont ever phase your 4.3 tank 

2 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

Yes, Japan and the minor nations are a special kind of grind.  In Japan's case, their low-tier vehicles are horrible: grind.  They don't have many vehicles in their tech tree, so you're often stuck with wild BR ranges in your line-ups: grind.  Many of available tanks are copy/pastes from other tech trees that you've probably already researched: grind.  I would also say that the lack of diversity from the smaller tech trees makes for a grind.

 

My attitude towards being low-tier has long been nonchalant.  I'd see the BR and adjust my gameplay to suit what was needed.  Always having to adjust my gameplay to suit the fact that I'm low BR, however, is really starting to wear on me.  It gets old.  It has gotten old.  I'm fed up with my experience being that I have to put up with this disadvantage so often.

I main japan, Im at 11.0 and am only missing 4 vehicles from the Japanese tech tree. Japan is honestly an easier grind. Less vehicles so less fluff to research to get up the tech tree. Also playing nations with only a few tanks at the top of the BR bracket forces you to learn how to play when vastly under tiered. As I said, my 3.7 chaffee will happily up tier into my 5.7 lineup and I can and do get stuck in against Tiger 2s with it. This is all about learning. Learn how to deal with an uptier and it'll never bother you again. As I said before, I literally dont even notice them. Doesnt matter what tank it is or what tank I am in, I know how to kill it.

[KiloZulu 114]

2 hours ago, _Zekken said:

We have though, you just ignored it.  Your inference is based off of "feel" and a few games tested in a BR bracket that happens to be exactly 1.0 lower than one of the most popular BR brackets in the game. Drop to 4.0 and you'll probably find your results a lot more favourable. Heck go up to 5.7 and you'll probably find similar favourable results as well. This is not something gaijin can control, certain BR brackets with certain vehicles just naturally become popular. 

Gaijin can't control it?  How about if they focus on adding vehicles, or adjusting the BR of existing vehicles, to open up choke points?  What if they created events and wagers that focus on those BR's that are underplayed?  I've always assumed that the game developers are striving to make the game fair and fun at every BR.  It would be pretty shortsighted if they were just randomly adding vehicles and adjusting BR's without any thought for the impact of those changes.

[_Zekken 706]

2 hours ago, KiloZulu said:

Gaijin can't control it?  How about if they focus on adding vehicles, or adjusting the BR of existing vehicles, to open up choke points?  What if they created events and wagers that focus on those BR's that are underplayed?  I've always assumed that the game developers are striving to make the game fair and fun at every BR.  It would be pretty shortsighted if they were just randomly adding vehicles and adjusting BR's without any thought for the impact of those changes.

Because none of that will do *anything* to change what I explained. It doesnt matter what you do, No matter what BR the tiger 1 is, you'll still get a giant proportion of people playing that tank, and making a lineup around that tank. 

 

You can adjust BRs as much as you want, but you will still get several BR brackets where some nations can make strong and popular lineups, including popular prem lineups. 

 

And even if gaijin does everything possible to fiddle with BRs or lineups and change everything to split those BR brackets (which by the way will be a WILDLY unpopular change), you are *still* going to have plenty of games where you will be max uptiered no matter what BR you choose unless you only play 11.0. That is not going to change. 

 

You have two options. One: be like the guy above who said he just leaves any uptier and spend more time in queue or with crew locks than actually playing and never learn how to cope.

Or Two: Just forget about it, stop paying any attention to whether you are in an uptier, and learn the best ways to deal with it.

 

one choice will over time massively improve your skills, the other will not. Take your pick. 

[KiloZulu 114]

39 minutes ago, _Zekken said:

Because none of that will do *anything* to change what I explained. It doesnt matter what you do, No matter what BR the tiger 1 is, you'll still get a giant proportion of people playing that tank, and making a lineup around that tank. 

 

You can adjust BRs as much as you want, but you will still get several BR brackets where some nations can make strong and popular lineups, including popular prem lineups. 

 

And even if gaijin does everything possible to fiddle with BRs or lineups and change everything to split those BR brackets (which by the way will be a WILDLY unpopular change), you are *still* going to have plenty of games where you will be max uptiered no matter what BR you choose unless you only play 11.0. That is not going to change. 

 

You have two options. One: be like the guy above who said he just leaves any uptier and spend more time in queue or with crew locks than actually playing and never learn how to cope.

Or Two: Just forget about it, stop paying any attention to whether you are in an uptier, and learn the best ways to deal with it.

 

one choice will over time massively improve your skills, the other will not. Take your pick. 

I threw out a couple of ideas off the cuff, as examples - it's up to the developers to create real solutions (if they wanted to.)

 

I've been playing for a long time.  It used to be that you could sway your BR in a battle based on your line-up.  The game looked at your three highest BR tanks, within 1.0 of your highest BR, and if the majority were lower BR, you had a higher chance of being put up against lower BR opponents.  What I'm hearing here is that has all been thrown out, and the only thing that matters is what tanks are popular.  Any player not playing one of the favored tanks will just be considered fodder.  That's some great game development, Gaijin.

 

I'm out of options.  I've spent a long time "just forgetting about it" and playing the game.  I'm sick and tired of being the fodder for other players advancement.

[Dodo_Dud 5,074]

10 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

I've been playing for a long time.  It used to be that you could sway your BR in a battle based on your line-up.  The game looked at your three highest BR tanks, within 1.0 of your highest BR, and if the majority were lower BR, you had a higher chance of being put up against lower BR opponents.  What I'm hearing here is that has all been thrown out

 

I have been playing since early 2016 and as far as I remember, this feature has been exclusive to air arcade, where it is still implemented. So if it ever existed elsewhere in 2015, I can't tell, but things have been like this for a long time.

 

 

[_Zekken 706]

14 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

I've been playing for a long time.  It used to be that you could sway your BR in a battle based on your line-up.  The game looked at your three highest BR tanks, within 1.0 of your highest BR, and if the majority were lower BR, you had a higher chance of being put up against lower BR opponents.  What I'm hearing here is that has all been thrown out, and the only thing that matters is what tanks are popular.  Any player not playing one of the favored tanks will just be considered fodder.  That's some great game development, Gaijin.

I have been playing this game since planes OBT. I have never heard of this being a thing, its always been your one highest BR tank. 

 

14 minutes ago, KiloZulu said:

I'm out of options.  I've spent a long time "just forgetting about it" and playing the game.  I'm sick and tired of being the fodder for other players advancement.

Clearly you haven't forgotten about it. If you think all you can be when bottom tier is just fodder you have a serious mindset issue on top of being so far from correct its not even funny. 

 

Good luck with your choice of Option 1. Have fun playing with the same gun the Chi Nu II has but at in max uptiers being 6.0 instead of 5.3 when you grind the Chi Ri I guess.