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Maus artificial buffs?


I have had some interesting run-ins with the Maus lately that make me question if any strange buffs were made to this vehicle to "balance" it better.

 

I shot twice at the side of a Maus turret twice with the Vickers aiming directly for the breech on purpose, and both times the Breach took no damage and was completely blue after two shots.

 

I have also been completely crew overpressured in a Vickers by the Maus' puny 75mm Heat gun that can be seen on early Panzer 4s.

 

These were two seperate incidents - I am just curious if these are isolated events or if these are observable buffs detected by others.

 

I have to say that I have never seen a caliber as low as 75mm overpressure a medium tank before.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

I have to say that I have never seen a caliber as low as 75mm overpressure a medium tank before.

 

I sometimes take the Pz.IV F1 up to br4-5 in Arcade. You can absolutely whack a lot of tanks that aren't super super heavy (over 100mm). AND do so without them firing back at you if you have a good spot. If you get an elevated position and can roof knock, you can easily one hit kill almost any tank in the game. It's like a top down HEAT missile. So that's why it's good, if people know how to aim with it, you can be in trouble.  With HEAT you aim for maximum crew in a line. Side shots suck, roofs, turrets and centre of mass shots are deadly and will one hit kill a medium tank.

 

Maus armour is pretty formidable for ww2 cannons. You will bounce lots where you shouldn't as you're running up to RNG. Same with fighting a t34, you can hit it in many places it should pen and it'll bounce in game..

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11 hours ago, [email protected] said:

I have also been completely crew overpressured in a Vickers by the Maus' puny 75mm Heat gun that can be seen on early Panzer 4s.

Well, it has more explosive than a regular 75mm HE, so chances are that when some roof armor is hit, it might overpressure the tank in very rare circumstances, but it's generally unlikely to happen.

 

11 hours ago, [email protected] said:

I shot twice at the side of a Maus turret twice with the Vickers aiming directly for the breech on purpose, and both times the Breach took no damage and was completely blue after two shots.

Depending on the angle, the round might not have enough energy left to damage the breech.

The Maus side turret is 205mm sloped at 30° so when you another 30° to that the LoS thickness grows to 260mm, leaving not much penetration left. Ammo and crew might absorb enough of the damage to leave the breech untouched.

Edited by KillaKiwi
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14 hours ago, N4CR_ said:

I sometimes take the Pz.IV F1 up to br4-5 in Arcade. You can absolutely whack a lot of tanks that aren't super super heavy (over 100mm). AND do so without them firing back at you if you have a good spot. If you get an elevated position and can roof knock, you can easily one hit kill almost any tank in the game. It's like a top down HEAT missile. So that's why it's good, if people know how to aim with it, you can be in trouble.  With HEAT you aim for maximum crew in a line. Side shots suck, roofs, turrets and centre of mass shots are deadly and will one hit kill a medium tank.

 

Maus armour is pretty formidable for ww2 cannons. You will bounce lots where you shouldn't as you're running up to RNG. Same with fighting a t34, you can hit it in many places it should pen and it'll bounce in game..

 

Im not talking about killing people, I am talking about the phenomenon where you pen and everyone in the vehicle instantly dies (overpressure) - to my understanding 75mm HEAT should not be able to do this to a medium tank.

 

There doesnt seem to be an explanation for why this occured.

Edited by [email protected]
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5 hours ago, [email protected] said:

There doesnt seem to be an explanation for why this occured.

Quote

Well, it has more explosive than a regular 75mm HE, so chances are that when some roof armor is hit, it might overpressure the tank in very rare circumstances, but it's generally unlikely to happen.

 

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1 hour ago, KillaKiwi said:

 

 

Tell me the explosive mass of the 75mm on the HEAT then, because the Vickers has a 25mm turret roof, and no 75mm HEAT round is gonna have the HE potential to pen that.

 

Btw it happened again, I got overpressured in a Vickers by that things crap gun. This doesnt happen with larger HEAT rounds, so clearly this is an artificial buff that the Maus has been given.

 

I bet a gigantic HESH round with 4-5KG of explosive mass doesnt have this effect on tanks, or a Vickers lmfao.

Edited by [email protected]
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It's a general bug with HEAT and HEAT-FS shells apparently.

At certain angles, the shell acts like its hitting the plate from the inside, thus overpressuring the crew like it was open top.

Affects all vehicles and HEAT shells

 

Spoiler

 

image.png.003d39043a0a6364ab6fc31586c5f5

 

image.png.76d2cda9a3228e85a9d87b79c92f50

 

 

Edited by NoodleCup31
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58 minutes ago, NoodleCup31 said:

It's a general bug with HEAT and HEAT-FS shells apparently.

At certain angles, the shell acts like its hitting the plate from the inside, thus overpressuring the crew like it was open top.

Affects all vehicles and HEAT shells

 

Hide contents

 

image.png.003d39043a0a6364ab6fc31586c5f5

 

image.png.76d2cda9a3228e85a9d87b79c92f50

 

 

 

You should verify if this is actually an issue with HEAT in general, because I have only seen this with the Maus. At this point in time this is a Maus issue, and I believe it may be intentional. Perhaps a bug report is in order, as that shell has no reason to overpressure over any other shell.

Edited by [email protected]
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First - you shouldn't meet maus in your vickers. that's a problem on it's own. Second - overpressure is a mess, better than a hullbreak, but still a mess. And for the last - I guess it's a problem with solid core projectiles + maus has a lot of room inside + this thing where if you're shooting moving turret damage model breaks on it's own.

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15 hours ago, [email protected] said:

 

Im not talking about killing people, I am talking about the phenomenon where you pen and everyone in the vehicle instantly dies (overpressure) - to my understanding 75mm HEAT should not be able to do this to a medium tank.

 

There doesnt seem to be an explanation for why this occured.

It can do this to a medium tank in game (as I explained, especially on thinner armour e.g. roof) and in real life. You hit a tiger mid-UFP with an M51 it will usually one hit kill. The jet is just one part, HEAT is also a large explosive device going off. If it hits a thin roof the explosion will cause a large hole and overpressure the inside of the tank. There was a photo posted on the forum a day or two ago from an M119? or similar that was hit by heat, probably a Dutch one sent to be scrap in Ukraine, it was a huge hole, it would've cause many injuries or deaths inside the APC. Let alone that 5000°c jet hits ammo..

 

There are also flash blindness, disorientation etc caused by the jet alone, it's a significant thermal/pressure effect IRL. It's like shooting HE with 110mm Pen. if it gets through and doesn't use all its energy, there is lot of explosive gas/etc with it. 

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On 25/11/2022 at 12:16, [email protected] said:

 

Tell me the explosive mass of the 75mm on the HEAT then, because the Vickers has a 25mm turret roof, and no 75mm HEAT round is gonna have the HE potential to pen that.

 

Btw it happened again, I got overpressured in a Vickers by that things crap gun. This doesnt happen with larger HEAT rounds, so clearly this is an artificial buff that the Maus has been given.

 

I bet a gigantic HESH round with 4-5KG of explosive mass doesnt have this effect on tanks, or a Vickers lmfao.

 

You are forgetting the angle performance of HEAT is very good. It pens 100mm flat and only starts bouncing at 69°, that's much more slope than almost anything you will shoot at in the game. Even on high angle 25mm isn't stopping much, so the jet will be large and chance of overpressure from 875g of HE will be higher.

 

I just checked in PA, which isn't super accurate but the shots are possible as I said. It's right around 68-73° flat, let alone with the drop of such a slow shell from such a high vehicle (Maus is tall) so not always going to pen but usually will and definitely will at range.. your roof is swiss cheese to WW2 HEAT. Just like ATGMs/drones with similar top down small HEAT warheads. 

 

875.5g 0% 62° 50% 69° 100% 73°

 

image.png.c9a5a7c2f1cee46f70e37acb14787a

Which is what I said was the advantage of this HEAT and why I uptier the Pz.IV F1 from time to time ;)

Edited by N4CR_
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To start, overpressure is broken


Straight up rolling a dice with any HEAT or HE round, no realism associated.

2nd, the maus breach has a lot of overlapping plates near the base of the barrel. Very easy for volumetric to start overlapping those plates. Volumetric has some strange effects that aren't realistic.

A hypothetical round can pen one layer of a plate at any angle. A round cannot pen two layers of this plate. but if you stick these plates right up against one another and shoot the seam from a slight angle, it tries to calculate both plates resisting the shell even though thats now how the physics calculation should work. I'm not sure if there is anything to be done without a mechanic overhaul, but it does generate a lot of wonky failed pens. At least we don't have the 'minimum shell shatter chance' brit tanks used to have. 
 

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On 25/11/2022 at 07:29, N4CR_ said:

It can do this to a medium tank in game (as I explained, especially on thinner armour e.g. roof) and in real life. You hit a tiger mid-UFP with an M51 it will usually one hit kill. The jet is just one part, HEAT is also a large explosive device going off. If it hits a thin roof the explosion will cause a large hole and overpressure the inside of the tank. There was a photo posted on the forum a day or two ago from an M119? or similar that was hit by heat, probably a Dutch one sent to be scrap in Ukraine, it was a huge hole, it would've cause many injuries or deaths inside the APC. Let alone that 5000°c jet hits ammo..

 

There are also flash blindness, disorientation etc caused by the jet alone, it's a significant thermal/pressure effect IRL. It's like shooting HE with 110mm Pen. if it gets through and doesn't use all its energy, there is lot of explosive gas/etc with it. 

 

The HEAT round seen on this 75mm has very low explosive mass. If what you describe is true, then either way there is a massive inconsistency in the way HE rounds operate. The Chieftains HESH round has a gargantuan 6.5KG of explosive mass equivolent for instance. Can this be seen when that round strikes an enemy? Absolutely not.

 

This comes across as a deflection to an issue with the Maus at present.

On 28/11/2022 at 08:41, N4CR_ said:

 

You are forgetting the angle performance of HEAT is very good. It pens 100mm flat and only starts bouncing at 69°, that's much more slope than almost anything you will shoot at in the game. Even on high angle 25mm isn't stopping much, so the jet will be large and chance of overpressure from 875g of HE will be higher.

 

I just checked in PA, which isn't super accurate but the shots are possible as I said. It's right around 68-73° flat, let alone with the drop of such a slow shell from such a high vehicle (Maus is tall) so not always going to pen but usually will and definitely will at range.. your roof is swiss cheese to WW2 HEAT. Just like ATGMs/drones with similar top down small HEAT warheads. 

 

875.5g 0% 62° 50% 69° 100% 73°

 

image.png.c9a5a7c2f1cee46f70e37acb14787a

Which is what I said was the advantage of this HEAT and why I uptier the Pz.IV F1 from time to time ;)

 

No offence, but I am going to assume that you have some kind of affinity for the Maus and are not responding to my post merit by merit, only deflecting it to debunk things that I am not actually arguing against.

 

I am not debating whether the round should penetrate me or not, I am enquiring about the suspicious OVEPRESSURE effect seen almost exclusively on the Maus 75mm that kills not the two crew that you have screenshotted, but the entire crew.

 

The event occured more or less the same as what you are showing except even the loader and DRIVER died as a result of the penetration. This is not a super HE round, this is not a round that justifies this level of power by the games own constraints. It is quite simply a discrepency and I have something else to say regarding it now, I will post below.

Edited by [email protected]
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I have a massive update to this post. Someone already bug reported this and a Gaijin member flared the report as "not a bug" meaning that the issue is known and reported, but is in fact an artificial buff, just as I described

 

image.png.1eb0cbdfc48f81aff4e5d71ac6c735

 

It happened again, but this time in something it should not have even penetrated, not even close.

 

If you are not convinced NC4R, I was struck by the HE round of the Maus consisting of only 686g (which might I remind you, is a small amount for an HE round by War Thunder standards - so I wont be hearing any realism arguments) in a Chieftain Mark 3 to the very thick right cheek of the turret. The HE only capable of penetrating 10mm of armor yet again obliterated all of my crew upon striking.

 

It is a very weak, very low BR round and it should not be having this effect on well-armored vehicles at high BRs, its not really a debate at this point.

 

If you are very curious I have the replay for you here at the 15m mark: https://warthunder.com//en/tournament/replay/9815636654831314

 

Observing the angle of attack and nearby armor, it has no capability to penetrate the turret from that angle. I am not sure a 10mm pen HE round could pen the turret anywhere.

 

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8 hours ago, [email protected] said:

I have a massive update to this post. Someone already bug reported this and a Gaijin member flared the report as "not a bug" meaning that the issue is known and reported, but is in fact an artificial buff, just as I described

I have just tested this with the T-34 and could replicate it. Trying the same shot in protection analysis lead to some interesting results

Spoiler

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/485523264437747722/1049616278681296916/image.png

See how the shot is coming from a different direction than my camera angle?

Someone I talked with had some similar weird overpressure after getting shot by a Gepard through the UFP of an M103. In protection analysis the shell also appeared from below at a weird angle.

And this was with the APHE, so the issue isnt limited to HEAT nor overpressure

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14 hours ago, [email protected] said:

I have a massive update to this post. Someone already bug reported this and a Gaijin member flared the report as "not a bug" meaning that the issue is known and reported, but is in fact an artificial buff, just as I described

 

image.png.1eb0cbdfc48f81aff4e5d71ac6c735

 

It happened again, but this time in something it should not have even penetrated, not even close.

 

If you are not convinced NC4R, I was struck by the HE round of the Maus consisting of only 686g (which might I remind you, is a small amount for an HE round by War Thunder standards - so I wont be hearing any realism arguments) in a Chieftain Mark 3 to the very thick right cheek of the turret. The HE only capable of penetrating 10mm of armor yet again obliterated all of my crew upon striking.

 

It is a very weak, very low BR round and it should not be having this effect on well-armored vehicles at high BRs, its not really a debate at this point.

 

If you are very curious I have the replay for you here at the 15m mark: https://warthunder.com//en/tournament/replay/9815636654831314

 

Observing the angle of attack and nearby armor, it has no capability to penetrate the turret from that angle. I am not sure a 10mm pen HE round could pen the turret anywhere.

 

I think this probably the same issue as APHE rounds have atm. Probably due to volumetric shells, the rounds will, at extreme impacts, overlap with the armor, thus creating an explosion inside and outside of the tank.

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/jvdBSVjW4lqS

 

Maybe this is going to be fixed in the next couple of updates.

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9 hours ago, Chomusuke1 said:

 

Again, not a rebuttal, as my post primarily exists to point out a discrepancy in the performance of the Maus 75mm  compared with other weaponry.

 

I am not experiencing this issue with much larger, much more powerful HEAT ammunition. Or an even better example, BESH, which is packed to the brim with explosive mass that showcases no overpressure mechanics on hard targets in sight...

 

Historical documentation (anecdotal at that) describing how effective HEAT ammunition can be on crew is not actually an argument in this instance, as not all HEAT ammunition in game behave this way. This is not a debate about the lethality of HEAT itself.

 

As I wrote earlier, this bug can also occur from non-penetrating Maus 75mm HE rounds, so yet again, specifically a Maus issue.

Edited by [email protected]
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38 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

specifically a Maus issue.

I don't think so...

Here you can see my Black Prince being destroyed by a scratch from the Sd.kfz 234/3's 75mm HEAT...

Overpressure...

Spoiler

388426378_shot2022_11_1321_10_34.jpg.d1e

So, as others have stated, there's much more going on than just the Maus...

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1 hour ago, ManOfHarlech said:

I don't think so...

Here you can see my Black Prince being destroyed by a scratch from the Sd.kfz 234/3's 75mm HEAT...

Overpressure...

Reveal hidden contents

So, as others have stated, there's much more going on than just the Maus...

 

Not sure how frequently that happens. It could in fact be that specific gun as the 4/3 puma shares the same rounds as the Maus I believe.

 

By no means is it "not a bug". There are no sufficient explanations as to why a ricocheting HEAT round kills crew for no reason. Its a textbook BUG.

 

Similar scenario to my chieftain dying from a scratch from those rounds.

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