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Nerf russian IFV's anti-air capabities.


Thodin
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20 minutes ago, CrossEyedN00b said:

Then how do they model the latest Russian vehicles? Ooooh, that's right - they get sekrit dokumints from manufacturers. Which will sometimes have bonkers statements just to please the one placing order

If I'm aware, after the fall of the Soviet Union plenty of tank characteristics were leaked and made public.

 

20 minutes ago, CrossEyedN00b said:

Since West and East information classification differs wildly there either shouldn't be modern vehicles from any side or both sides get a benefit of the doubt treatment until

Also known as "there are no documents to back my claims but I want buffs anyway". You people knew all along that adding such new tanks would invariably involve classified specs. It's quite amazing that despite having no idea of the real values (and we won't have for a very long time) you people still claim Gaijin got it wrong. The other day someone here on the forums told me they expected the new tank to the immune to 3BM42 frontally -   that'd make it very balanced, right ? lol.

Like I said previously, even if someone were to find classified data to back up their claims, Gaijin wouldn't be able to fix it using such data so this whole discussion is futile. Better go directly to the point and ask for buffs, no one here is in position to tell devs they got any modeling wrong if they can't back that up with data.

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18 hours ago, MagicalMethod said:

Aye but neither VEAK nor the M247 can engage drones at 5~KM even if they are stationary. 

I don't know about M247 but I'm getting lead indicators with my VEAK on targets that are ~5km away.

 

9 hours ago, lucassama said:

you would not notice that 2s38 is locking and shooting you at 5 or 6km away cuz no radar warning and tracer. You wont even hear gun firing at that range. 

That thing has a muzzle velocity of 1000m/s which means it will travel for at least 6 seconds until it reaches you, the target, 6km away. Even the slightest of adjustments from the pilot in that 6 second time period will make the shell miss completely, because it has zero means to change it's direction mid flight. Because of this, SAM systems are much more effective at countering CAS on medium and long ranges, so it's pretty obvious why they are prevalent at top tier. 

I've used both Tunguska and OTOMATIC and I can tell you that OTOMATIC is seriously lacking in it's AA capabilities when compared to other top tier SPAAs, can you guess why, is it because of the amazingly good HE-VT shells people keep giving praise to ? :good:

Edited by MotorolaCRO

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3 hours ago, Despeao said:

If I'm aware, after the fall of the Soviet Union plenty of tank characteristics were leaked and made public.

 



Like I said previously, even if someone were to find classified data to back up their claims, Gaijin wouldn't be able to fix it using such data so this whole discussion is futile. Better go directly to the point and ask for buffs, no one here is in position to tell devs they got any modeling wrong if they can't back that up with data.

2S38 is not a Soviet design.

It's Russian, from 2020s. The documents available describe functionality that probably will never work, as we can see the quality for better part of the year now.

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm asking for - a buff in a game to even the playing field a little bit.

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On 17/11/2022 at 11:54, GNDM [email protected] said:

Better question; Why did Gaijin violate their own rules in adding a vehicle that is still in testing trials?

 

Both vehicles in question need to be uptiered, additionally. 

 

10.7-11.0, respectively. Anything lower is criminal.

The BMP-2M going up to 10.7 is insane, 9.7 max, the only thing that it going for it is thermals, atgms, APFSDS and the IRST

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Just now, Ac3 [email protected] said:

The BMP-2M going up to 10.7 is insane, 9.7 max, the only thing that it going for it is thermals, atgms, APFSDS and the IRST

The ATGMs can pen allmost everything anywhere. I see no reason it should be below 10.3.

 

The Bill has worse ATGMs and its supposed to go to 10.3. 

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2 minutes ago, MagicalMethod said:

The ATGMs can pen allmost everything anywhere. I see no reason it should be below 10.3.

 

The Bill has worse ATGMs and its supposed to go to 10.3. 

The ATGMS are extremely inconsistant with damage and hardly one shot at all, the gun is decent, gen 3 thermals are nice, irst is nice, poor surivability, manueverbility is roughly the same as the TURMS, acceleration is poor. It should be 9.7 at most.

Edited by Ac3 [email protected]
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1 hour ago, Ac3 [email protected] said:

The ATGMS are extremely inconsistant with damage and hardly one shot at all,

Have you ever used top down ATGMs? Those Are unreliable.. 

The kornets are the best ATGMs you can carry as a ground vehicle... You can fire them on the move, you can fire multiple missiles at once, there is no time-to-deploy on it's launchers, it can pen nearly anything anywhere, survivability is about as good as any other IFV (excluding puma but that is a 40~ ton IFV.), gun pen is enough for side shots and turret ring shots, and the ROF is just enough to melt anything that shows it's side in a second or two. 

 

It's the best IFV in the game. And it should be 10.0-10-7

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Kornets also have alot overpressure or whatever....post pen isn't comparable with any other missile I know ingame. Even other tandem heat's like PARS or TOW-2A have something like a damage cone and often fail to take out tanks with just one shot. However, Kornets always take out everything inside the tank, even then they penetrate a remote part. Its rigged.

Edited by Thodin
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4 hours ago, CrossEyedN00b said:

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm asking for - a buff in a game to even the playing field a little bit.

Fair enough.

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3 hours ago, MagicalMethod said:

Have you ever used top down ATGMs? Those Are unreliable.. 

The kornets are the best ATGMs you can carry as a ground vehicle... You can fire them on the move, you can fire multiple missiles at once, there is no time-to-deploy on it's launchers, it can pen nearly anything anywhere, survivability is about as good as any other IFV (excluding puma but that is a 40~ ton IFV.), gun pen is enough for side shots and turret ring shots, and the ROF is just enough to melt anything that shows it's side in a second or two. 

 

It's the best IFV in the game. And it should be 10.0-10-7

Anything above 9.7 makes no sense for the BMP-2M

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4 hours ago, MagicalMethod said:

The ATGMs can pen allmost everything anywhere. I see no reason it should be below 10.3.

 

The Bill has worse ATGMs and its supposed to go to 10.3. 

Just because it can pen everything with its ATGMS doesn't mean that it op, same thing with the M-51, it can pen most of all tanks at its BR but never consistently kills

3 hours ago, MagicalMethod said:

Have you ever used top down ATGMs? Those Are unreliable.. 

The kornets are the best ATGMs you can carry as a ground vehicle... You can fire them on the move, you can fire multiple missiles at once, there is no time-to-deploy on it's launchers, it can pen nearly anything anywhere, survivability is about as good as any other IFV (excluding puma but that is a 40~ ton IFV.), gun pen is enough for side shots and turret ring shots, and the ROF is just enough to melt anything that shows it's side in a second or two. 

 

It's the best IFV in the game. And it should be 10.0-10-7

"Survivability is about as good as any other IFV" Not at all, the crew is not cramped per say... but placed perfectly where 1 shot from APFSDS will usually destroy the tank.

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5 hours ago, Ac3 [email protected] said:

The BMP-2M going up to 10.7 is insane, 9.7 max, the only thing that it going for it is thermals, atgms, APFSDS and the IRST

I agree that 10.7 is insane but putting it at 10.0 should be more than fine, it would fit in the lineup there perfectly. Italy has VCC 80/60 which sits at 9.7 BR and BMP-2M beats it in quite a lot of areas, so in my opinion those two shouldn't share the same BR.

 

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1 hour ago, Ac3 [email protected] said:

"Survivability is about as good as any other IFV" Not at all, the crew is not cramped per say... but placed perfectly where 1 shot from APFSDS will usually destroy the tank.

Any IFV is a one shot kill. Even the Puma if you know where to shoot. Not to mention BMP chassis and survivability doesnt go together. You want survivability from an IFV with maximum of 30mm of armor.

Name me one IFV that can take hits just as well as an MBT (again except the PUMA... that thing was made to have MBT levels of protection) 

 

IFVs are simply not designed to take hits from a 120mm smoothbore gun (unless it's a PUMA i guess). And discussing the BR of an IFV based on it's survivability is stupid (Unless it's a PUMA... Again...)

 

1 hour ago, Ac3 [email protected] said:

Just because it can pen everything with its ATGMS doesn't mean that it op, same thing with the M-51, it can pen most of all tanks at its BR but never consistently kills

I dont know about you but i rarely have a tank survive more then 2 ATGMs, if you fire them all into one spot then yea. It will survive all 4. And it isnt just because of the missiles. It's because it can fire multiple missiles at once while going 40 KPH. Which no-one else can do afaik and roflpenning nearly anything not equipped with an APS

 

23 minutes ago, MotorolaCRO said:

Italy has VCC 80/60 which sits at 9.7 BR and BMP-2M beats it in quite a lot of areas, so in my opinion those two shouldn't share the same BR.

Sweden has Strf9040 BILL which has top down missiles that do damage only if your aim is precise. The moment the missile hits anywhere else but center turret It'll not kill. That same vehicle also needs to wait for the launcher to deploy, has a 35+- round ready-rack where a single shot takes 1-2 seconds to reload despite being extremely light 40mm APFSDS, needs to stop before it can fire (obviously), cannot fire more then one missile at a time, has the same amount of crewmen, and doesnt have the magical UFP capable of bouncing DM53 once in a blue moon. And is about to go to 10.3 why wouldnt the BMP-2M ?

 

Give me one good reason as to why the BMP-2M should be below the Strf9040 Bill. And no... the top-down missiles are sh*t. 

 

The BMP-2M has the same amount of issues facing a centurion mk.3 as it does facing an M1A2 SEP. 

Edited by MagicalMethod
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31 minutes ago, MagicalMethod said:

Give me one good reason as to why the BMP-2M should be below the Strf9040 Bill. And no... the top-down missiles are sh*t. 

BILL would be perfectly fine at 9.7 in GRB, but I guess their statistics are showing it's overperforming at 10.0 in GAB so it's getting a BR increase :good:.

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1 hour ago, MotorolaCRO said:

BILL would be perfectly fine at 9.7 in GRB, but I guess their statistics are showing it's overperforming at 10.0 in GAB so it's getting a BR increase :good:.

The biggest problem was that most Strf's (if i'm writing the name wrong, please correct me), were added before volumetric changes. Back then, pint point accurancy and big fire-rate allowed this vechicles to be monsters and their B.R. was increased (as it should at that moment). Now only some people use them over something else or as a back up vechicle (mainly people who like the playstyle of this vechicles, not regular people), meaning that their stats are mediocare or sometimes even good, sadly it has nothing to do with how regular people will do in this vechicles :dntknw:.

 

The problem with IFV's that most people have is that they require a certain playstyle to perform well. Especially at top tier, where everyone has stabilisers, thermals etc, it is not as usual to see someone perform good in them. We can take M1A1 AIM stats or Leo 1 stats and see that they have similar stats to 2S38 with very close number of battles (according to thunderskill):

https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/ussr_2s38

https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/us_m1a1_aim_abrams

https://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/germ_leopard_I

Do they overperform then? I hardly belive in that. What people are mostly angry about is their inability to fight back when someone is using this certain playstyle that this vechicle requires (aggressive one). Most people are used to this long engagements where if one vechicle shoots, the other has around 8 seconds to do something if he wasn't damaged, or that people don't usually just drive at You with full speed as most people try a "safe" playstyle. When they meet someone who can really perform a "agressive" playstyle well, they can't even react properly as their brain can't process what is happening fast enough. 

Edited by ULQ_LOVER
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12 hours ago, ULQ_LOVER said:

. We can take M1A1 AIM stats or Leo 1 stats and see that they have similar stats to 2S38 with very close number of battles (according to thunderskill)

Just like I predicted before this vehicle was introduced, I hardly believed it would have good stats. And before someone says the sample isn't big enough, it has more than 11k games on last month alone so it's a good sample.

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15 hours ago, ULQ_LOVER said:

Now only some people use them over something else or as a back up vechicle (mainly people who like the playstyle of this vechicles, not regular people), meaning that their stats are mediocare or sometimes even good, sadly it has nothing to do with how regular people will do in this vechicles :dntknw:

This is a problem with a lot of vehicles from minor nations. I suppose that many new players choose one of the three major nations to start with, and when they transition to grinding another nation (presumably minor one), their skill level is much higher than before and because of that statistics for minor nation's vehicles may get inflated, since there isn't enough fresh, rookie players to offset that. 

 

15 hours ago, ULQ_LOVER said:

The problem with IFV's that most people have is that they require a certain playstyle to perform well. Especially at top tier, where everyone has stabilisers, thermals etc, it is not as usual to see someone perform good in them.

What people are mostly angry about is their inability to fight back when someone is using this certain playstyle that this vechicle requires (aggressive one).

It's surely harder to perfectly play light vehicles like 2S38 because they can't fit in every playstyle like MBTs can.

People seem to be angry because 2S38 sits at a lower BR than something like 9040C while being a better vehicle overall. 

 

3 hours ago, Despeao said:

Just like I predicted before this vehicle was introduced, I hardly believed it would have good stats. And before someone says the sample isn't big enough, it has more than 11k games on last month alone so it's a good sample.

I don't like to take TS seriously because no one can know if the sample size is big enough, simply because you have no idea how many battles in total have played out. But yeah, I never thought 2S38 would be as much of a problem as, let's say, PT-76-57 which was a fully stabilized, fast firing vehicle with LRF that was put in BR range where most enemies were non-stabilized, paper thin (even on the front) vehicles that have massively worse reaction times.

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I can't tell for its AA capacity but there is no doubt the 2S38 is currently the most overpowered vehicle in high tier. It's simply dominating in SqB and has obviously become the game meta around its BR. It has no obvious flaw and all the bells and whistles that you can dream of. At 9.7, only Italy has something remotely comparable (and to a lesser extent the USA and Germany). All other game nations simply have no counter/equivalent.

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On 23/11/2022 at 08:16, MotorolaCRO said:

OTOMATIC is seriously lacking in it's AA capabilities when compared to other top tier SPAAs

When you bring out OTOMATIC while talking about 2s38, then either OTOMATIC is too bad at 10.7 or 2s38 is too good at 9.7 (OTOMATIC problem you mentioned can be a more general problem for gun-based spaas)

 

2s38 really has the top-end gun-based spaa power although it does not have search radar which is a downside. However it is a strong light tank at the same time.

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1 hour ago, lucassama said:

When you bring out OTOMATIC while talking about 2s38, then either OTOMATIC is too bad at 10.7 or 2s38 is too good at 9.7 (OTOMATIC problem you mentioned can be a more general problem for gun-based spaas)

I've said multiple times that OTOMATIC is suffering in it's current state and doesn't deserve to be at 10.7, in my opinion it's more of a 10.0 SPAA at best. 2S38 falls behind OTOMATIC in terms of AA capabilities, but is better in an anti-tank role, so honestly 2S38 should go up to  something like 10.0 or 10.3 at max.

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On 23/11/2022 at 11:24, Ac3 [email protected] said:

The BMP-2M going up to 10.7 is insane, 9.7 max, the only thing that it going for it is thermals, atgms, APFSDS and the IRST

 

Tell me you're insane and a Bias crutcher without telling me you're insane, because you're quite blatantly a Bias crutcher. 

 

BMP-2M with it's armament can reliably engage both ground and air targets while remaining on the move and is the only IFV in the game that retains FOTM capability even with it's ATGM launchers, which have TANDEM warheads AND the anti-air warheads are capable of reaching out to 8km, able to effectively engage helicopters and drones. 

 

It deserves nothing less than 10.7 or 11.0 BR - Anything less is outright criminal, and the same can be said for the new fantasy " light tank " they added.

Edited by GNDM [email protected]
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Just now, GNDM [email protected] said:

BMP-2M with it's armament can reliably engage both ground and air targets while remaining on the move and is the only IFV inbthe game that retains FOTM capability even with it's ATGM launchers, which have TANDEM warheads AND the anti-air warheads are capable of reaching out to 8km, able to effectively engage helicopters and drones. 

I belive You have tested it in battles, epseially than this rockets have poor elevantion ;)?

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1 hour ago, GNDM [email protected] said:

 

Tell me you're insane and a Bias crutcher without telling me you're insane, because you're quite blatantly a Bias crutcher. 

 

BMP-2M with it's armament can reliably engage both ground and air targets while remaining on the move and is the only IFV in the game that retains FOTM capability even with it's ATGM launchers, which have TANDEM warheads AND the anti-air warheads are capable of reaching out to 8km, able to effectively engage helicopters and drones. 

 

It deserves nothing less than 10.7 or 11.0 BR - Anything less is outright criminal, and the same can be said for the new fantasy " light tank " they added.

"Bias Crutcher" ah yes because I definitely only play russia (which isn't my main btw) I play USA, GER, USSR, GB, JAPAN, and I am starting to get into Italy and Sweden.

I am not a "Bias Crutcher", I play the BMP-2M and I can say that while it is good, it is over-hyped. Just to add on, why do you have to resort to insulting people to get your crappy point across?

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1 minute ago, Ac3 [email protected] said:

"Bias Crutcher" ah yes because I definitely only play russia (which isn't my main btw) I play USA, GER, USSR, GB, JAPAN, and I am starting to get into Italy and Sweden.

I am not a "Bias Crutcher", I play the BMP-2M and I can say that while it is good, it is over-hyped. Just to add on, why do you have to resort to insulting people to get your crappy point across?

 

If the shoes fit, feel free to lace them up. 

 

The capabilities of the BMP-2M are way beyond the pail for it to be anything less than 10.7-11.0 BR. Anyone saying otherwise is either insane, a bias crutcher or both. Simple as. It's outright criminal that it remains so undertiered and only feeds the Russian Bias narrative, among many other Russian vehicles - Especially in regards to the premiums. Additionally there is no good argument for why they remain so low in BR other than that a healthy pop of players do below average in them, which is a copout of an excuse since a new player can immediately shell out cash to get into top tier.

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