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M1A2 SEP + TUSK discussion


Hi,

 

I would like to open a topic to discuss the newest Abrams to join War Thunder.

 

How does its composite armor stack up to previous models?

It should have 3rd gen DU inserts but that doesn't say a lot, does it?

 

Edited by CrossEyedN00b
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23 minutes ago, CrossEyedN00b said:

Hi,

 

I would like to open a topic to discuss the newest Abrams to join War Thunder.

 

How does it's composite armor stack up to previous models?

It should have 3rd gen DU inserts but that doesn't say a lot, does it?

 

 

According to suggestion by @Yontzee

 

It was also able to fire M829A3

 

What worries me most is the effectiveness of ARAT. Currently they use placeholder values of Contact-5 (120mm against kinetics and 450mm against chemicals)

Question is, is it more comparable to Relikt or Contact-5?

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13 minutes ago, TyphoonCro said:

What worries me most is the effectiveness of ARAT. Currently they use placeholder values of Contact-5 (120mm against kinetics and 450mm against chemicals)

Question is, is it more comparable to Relikt or Contact-5?

The ARAT was designed to defeat CE rounds, not KE so having such a high KE protection is nonsense.

currently the ARAT has volumetric armor applied to it, so it has much higher protection value than the K-5 ERA.

Edited by W0Ni_21
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Just now, __Witcher__ said:

Have you tried creating a bug report?

not yet, and i have no idea how much protection it can provide.

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1 hour ago, W0Ni_21 said:

The ARAT was designed to defeat CE rounds, not KE so having such a high KE protection is nonsense.

currently the ARAT has volumetric armor applied to it, so it has much higher protection value than the K-5 ERA.

Do we have any actual sources stating ARAT’s true purpose? Blogs all day say ‘it only does CE, or it can do both’ and those are the only thing that actually say something about ARAT’s full capability which isn’t reliable. The manufacturer of the website gives a general statement on the ARAT I’s capabilities stating that is more effective than appliqué armor. When I made the suggestion for the Abrams SEP, I had difficulties discussing the ARAT I with my only lead being it can stop RPG’s (260mm CE) so I used that as my CE modifier. From my understanding ARAT I is mainly CE while ARAT II does both but that’s also difficult to prove.

Edited by Yontzee
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We should ask @Smin1080p to explain the situation with M1A2 SEP protection.

He can ask devs, also he can told us is the reports are needed or what's the plan, because this tank is still WIP on dev.

So @Smin1080pcould you clarify the current statement?

 

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Just now, Tivoru said:

We should ask @Smin1080p to explain the situation with M1A2 SEP protection.

He can ask devs, also he can told us is the reports are needed or what's the plan, because this tank is still WIP on dev.

So @Smin1080pcould you clarify the current statement?

 

 

Reports can be made if anyone has viable material to report with (that is fully declassified and meets the criteria) if anyone wishes: https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder

 

All armour profiles on the dev server are currently WIP however. 

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18 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Reports can be made if anyone has viable material to report with (that is fully declassified and meets the criteria) if anyone wishes: https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder

 

All armour profiles on the dev server are currently WIP however. 

It’s honestly going to be a toss up to the developers. We won’t be able to find much open source since the ARAT I is still an application that can be used with the Army. Reach out cells for the game can contact one of the contractors EBAD and see what they can provide as this is bonus publicity for them. Also maybe @Conte_Baraccacan shed some light on it. I know he said he didn’t apply it to his tanks but he might have information.
 

Contractor:

https://www.ebad.com/m-19-abrams-reactive-armor-tile-arat/

 

P.S. All I’m going to say is don’t try and force any changes to something (especially weaking it) we don't know or have solid evidence on. I’m definitely not saying use the Kontact-5 placeholder, I’m just saying we need more information.

Edited by Yontzee
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7 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Reports can be made if anyone has viable material to report with (that is fully declassified and meets the criteria) if anyone wishes: https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder

 

All armour profiles on the dev server are currently WIP however. 

 

As you said, since armor is WIP, that's why we were wondering what was planned for values on the tank (upgraded hull or not); since making bug reports while the armor is still being worked on and while its intended final values are yet unknown could be unwise and make things harder.

 

I personally try to make reports only when something is clearly wrong, and not when it's just still incomplete. Because, if it's just incomplete, it's pointless to make a report at that point, as there's nothing really to report.

Edited by SPANISH_AVENGER
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2 minutes ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

As you said, since armor is WIP, that's why we were wondering what was planned for values on the tank (upgraded hull or not); since making bug reports while the armor is still being worked on and while its intended final values are yet unknown could be unwise and make things harder.

 

I personally try to make reports only when something is clearly wrong, and not when it's just still incomplete. Because, if it's just incomplete, it's pointless to make a report at that point, as there's nothing really to report.

 

That's not exactly correct. It doesn't actually confuse anything, more ensures that anything you don't believe is correct and want to ensure all information makes it in time rather than waiting until afterwards.

 

There's no harm at all in submitting a report even when something is WIP, as the Harrier GR.7 showed. Many of the issues were resolved before the reports were even checked, however the reports ensured it was all covered regardless. 

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2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

That's not exactly correct. It doesn't actually confuse anything, more ensures that anything you don't believe is correct and want to ensure all information makes it in time rather than waiting until afterwards.

 

There's no harm at all in submitting a report even when something is WIP, as the Harrier GR.7 showed. Many of the issues were resolved before the reports were even checked, however the reports ensured it was all covered regardless. 


I see, it makes sense. Thank you for your replies!

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43 minutes ago, Yontzee said:

Contractor:

https://www.ebad.com/m-19-abrams-reactive-armor-tile-arat/

 

P.S. All I’m going to say is don’t try and force any changes to something (especially weaking it) we don't know or have solid evidence on. I’m definitely not saying use the Kontact-5 placeholder, I’m just saying we need more information.

 

Well I am trying to find any pictures of what an ARAT tile looks from the inside. The contractor mentions two metal plates sandwiched around the explosive filler, and if the plates are dense and thick enough I think it could have some effectiveness against Kinetic penetrators, but as far as I am concerned the metal plates could be as thin as the ones found on Kontakt-1.

Edited by SXTREME
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21 minutes ago, SXTREME said:

 

Well I am trying to find any pictures of what an ARAT tile looks from the inside. The contractor mentions two metal plates sandwiched around the explosive filler, and if the plates are dense and thick enough I think it could have some effectiveness against Kinetic penetrators, but as far as I am concerned the metal plates could be as thin as the ones found on Kontakt-1.

I wish you luck honestly, I looked for hours and I couldn’t find anything. Look for battle damaged Abrams in Iraq and you might have better luck finding an Abrams w/ TUSK hit by a missile or something showing the remnants of a tile. The plates could be thicker and the material for the filler could be less but still potent depending on the makeup of the filler.

I would guess there is some KE protection.

The three things we do know is that it can at least protect against small arms without detonating according to the contractor, it’s more effective than appliqué armor (if this is referring to the tiles on the M60-series, we know that it has some KE but idk if it’s referring to that specifically), and that it can stop at least RPG’s or at least 260mm of CE confirmed protection for the base model of missile with penetration of up to 600mm for advanced models I believe. 

Edited by Yontzee
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1 hour ago, Yontzee said:

Do we have any actual sources stating ARAT’s true purpose? Blogs all day say ‘it only does CE, or it can do both’ and those are the only thing that actually say something about ARAT’s full capability which isn’t reliable. The manufacturer of the website gives a general statement on the ARAT I’s capabilities stating that is more effective than appliqué armor. When I made the suggestion for the Abrams SEP, I had difficulties discussing the ARAT I with my only lead being it can stop RPG’s (260mm CE) so I used that as my CE modifier. From my understanding ARAT I is mainly CE while ARAT II does both but that’s also difficult to prove.

During the Operation Iraqi Freedom, the main threat the M1A2 face was Handheld Infantry Weapons such as RPG-7 and ATGMs, and it rarely saw a tank-to-tank combat. This situation led to development of the TUSK incorporating M19 ARAT. That mean the ARAT doesn't meant to provide protection against tank-fired KE ammunition.

Spoiler

Which is a superior tank armour, Kontakt-5 or ARAT? - Quora

unknown.png

 

Edited by W0Ni_21
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  • Senior Technical Moderator
Spoiler

image.png

That book mentions it briefly.  But I don't remember if it goes into much detail.  I believe there are a few others that talk a small amount about it as well.  

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41 minutes ago, Conraire said:

That book mentions it briefly.  But I don't remember if it goes into much detail.  I believe there are a few others that talk a small amount about it as well.  

 

Just with a first look found something relevant:

 

Spoiler

Skc.png

 

EFP are technically Kinetic threats, so if ARAT was rated to counter those then it is likely to have some Kinetic protection.

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7 minutes ago, SXTREME said:

EFP are technically Kinetic threats

The HEAT round is technically a "kinetic" round, but, unlike the classic AP, it uses the Munroe effect; the EFP ( Explosively Formed Penetrator) is the copper (or other material) liner that during the explosion forms a jetstream of high speed hot metal that penetrates the armour. But other than that, in game (and IRL) it's considered a CE round.

It might have some anti-KE properties, but it's mainly anti-CE.

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18 minutes ago, Snow_Gryphon said:

The HEAT round is technically a "kinetic" round, but, unlike the classic AP, it uses the Munroe effect; the EFP ( Explosively Formed Penetrator) is the copper (or other material) liner that during the explosion forms a jetstream of high speed hot metal that penetrates the armour. But other than that, in game (and IRL) it's considered a CE round.

It might have some anti-KE properties, but it's mainly anti-CE.

 

HEAT and EFPs are two different things, while both are Shaped Charges, EFPs don't form a molten jetstream but rather form a solid slug that has penetration properties better described as kinetic rather than chemical.

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55 minutes ago, Snow_Gryphon said:

The HEAT round is technically a "kinetic" round, but, unlike the classic AP, it uses the Munroe effect; the EFP ( Explosively Formed Penetrator) is the copper (or other material) liner that during the explosion forms a jetstream of high speed hot metal that penetrates the armour. But other than that, in game (and IRL) it's considered a CE round.

It might have some anti-KE properties, but it's mainly anti-CE.

It probably is rated to 7.62mm and 12.7.mm. Could be low caliber autocannon fire too. I don’t think it can handle anything much greater and I think that’s why the M-32 ARAT II was developed.
 

RPG’s have a penetration from 260mm to around 600+/- and that’s not including ATGM’s so it’s just gauging how much CE to give it. 

Edited by Yontzee
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1 minute ago, SXTREME said:

HEAT and EFPs are two different things, while both are Shaped Charges, EFPs don't form a molten jetstream but rather form a solid slug that has penetration properties better described as kinetic rather than chemical.

Yeah, but still it's far from being 100% equivalent to the APFSDS. Maybe the current protection against KE (maybe 10-15% better than the K-5 ERA) are good enough.

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