[Development] Rankings Challenge - feedback thread

[Complete_Noob 34]

Upon testing, I can already see an issue with this game mode. I've played two battles now where the enemy has died once and left. When they leave, it counts as a defeat for them, but it counts as nothing for you. According to the leaderboard, I haven't even played yet despite winning both battles I've played. If this is allowed to stay, it'll be a way to soft-grief people. Really annoying wasting time trying to win battles if you don't make any progress despite winning. 

[Handels_ 15]

4 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

 

 

 

Just to be sure: You guys want "Full-Real controls" to be removed since that is the only control scheme allowed in Sim? And you want to keep the option to use "Realistic ontrols"?

No, both should be removed, since they give advantages to normal RB controls but Simplified doesn't so it can stay(or all can be removed).

[Metrallaroja 1,237]

9 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

 

 

 

Just to be sure: You guys want "Full-Real controls" to be removed since that is the only control scheme allowed in Sim? And you want to keep the option to use "Realistic ontrols"?

We just want this option turned on in RB duels.

Force virtual instrucor --> Yes

As simple as that

Edited September 6, 2022 by Metrallaroja

[Exocetta 12]

13 minutes ago, Complete_Noob said:

I think no one understands the mode. There is no indication of what you are supposed to do.

 

[esapekkis 2,625]

15 minutes ago, Handels_ said:

No, both should be removed, since they give advantages to normal RB controls but Simplified doesn't so it can stay(or all can be removed).

 

12 minutes ago, Metrallaroja said:

We just want this option turned on in RB duels.

Force virtual instrucor --> Yes

 

Spoiler

 

As simple as that

 

Then why is everyone in this thread asking for removal of "Sim controls"? Might be wise to be more precise what you ask for if removing the control scheme used in Sim is not actually the thing you want to be changed.

 

Using a control scheme without working virtual instructor might give you some advantages, but it also gives you some clear disadvantages compared to mouse aim controls. Would it be enough if you could not toggle between the control schemes during the fight when ever you can gain an advantage using the other control scheme?

Edited September 6, 2022 by esapekkis

[Complete_Noob 34]

Yeah, I'm just straight up not getting any leaderboard progress. I finished a game this time, got both kills, and still don't show up on the leaderboard at all. Glad there's rewards I could get, but actually can't.

[Bruce_R1 1,938]

3 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

 

 

Then why on is everyone asking for removal of "Sim controls". Might be wise to be more precise what you ask for if removing the control scheme used in Sim is not actually the thing you want to be changed.

 

Using control a scheme without virtual instructor might give you some advanatages, but it also gives you some clear disadvantages compared to mouse aim. Would it be enough if you could not toggle between the control schemes during the fight when ever you can gain an advantage using the other control scheme?

Or you know, they could buy a good joystick and learn to use it to compete when they're in a world-wide competition for a flight sim game. Lots of people switch to joystick now for things like the Po-2 races. Do we turn joystick- and rudder-enabling features for those events as well?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bruce_R1

[esapekkis 2,625]

3 minutes ago, Bruce_R1 said:

Or you know, they could buy a good joystick and learn to use it to compete when they're in a world-wide competition for a flight sim game. Lots of people switch to joystick now for things like the Po-2 races. Do we turn joystick- and rudder-enabling features for those events as well?

 

How about console players who quite often use controllers and instead of the mouse+keyboard combo! Unfair playing field again

[Exocetta 12]

Games are failing to load...   

Why did I get spammed with all these "tickets" in my inventory?

[NoBombersInJetRB 1,305]

Just now, Exocetta said:

Games are failing to load...   

You should restart the game because plane is switched to Bf 109 F-1 from Yak-1B for somehow.

 

I happend same things 5 times in a row but it was fixed when I restarted the game.

[ThatAcer 543]

24 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

 

How about console players who quite often use controllers and instead of the mouse+keyboard combo! Unfair playing field again

man you dont know how tournaments work. Here for you, thats top TSS Air gameplay 

 

[ThatAcer 543]

Also can we get tournament markers? Current markers are kinda weird, because you can see the tank, but you dont have marker on map.

[Metrallaroja 1,237]

45 minutes ago, Bruce_R1 said:

Or you know, they could buy a good joystick and learn to use it to compete when they're in a world-wide competition for a flight sim game. Lots of people switch to joystick now for things like the Po-2 races. Do we turn joystick- and rudder-enabling features for those events as well?

 

39 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

 

How about console players who quite often use controllers and instead of the mouse+keyboard combo! Unfair playing field again

Why we should all use sim settings in a RB mode, it makes no sense at all. There is the SB mode for that.

Also please, why speak out against the feedback of experienced players in RB tournaments when you dont have any experience in this subject. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Metrallaroja

[Bruce_R1 1,938]

9 minutes ago, Metrallaroja said:

 

Why we should all use sim settings in a RB mode, it makes no sense at all. There is the SB mode for that.

Also please, why speak out against the feedback of experienced players in RB tournaments when you dont have any experience in this subject. 

I'll bet money I was in more tournaments than you this weekend. Also, where are you on this list (mostly joystick players in a RB event, in the top ranks)? 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bruce_R1

[IIIlIlIlIlIlIlIl 54]

Be honest, War Thunder is NOT a game for Esport, and it shout not try to being a Esport game. Unless there is a very attractive reward, otherwise ranking will soon be a dead game mode.Below I explain why

First, the game mode is boring. In general games, you don't have to be afraid of death and you can play all the time, diverse battlefields are also one of the features of this game. But in ranking mode, obviously we don't see any interesting battlefields. All player is just use a same vehicle to fight. I remember game director BVVD said BR compressed to preserve vehicle diversity, but ranking just completely rejects the claim.

Second, it's about ground batlle. How is the ranking mode be like? WE JUST KEEP CAMP EACH OTHER IN A SAME POSITION. At most, it is to avoid artillery to support a small amount of movement. But it still being a boring camping. At least for me camping a long time is not fun for me.

Third, It's about air combat. I have to admit that dogfight is definitely more interesting than the ground battle. But it still easy to get bored. On the one hand, I keep driving the same plane to fight, on the other hand, due to the SB operation, I actually spend a lot of time controlling the engine instead of controlling the flight. I don't know which direction gaijin wants the ranking dogfight to develop, gaijin hopes We focus on engine operation or focus on flight?

At last, War Thunder is a game that no need a lot of skill and practise to have fun. Even you are new player you still can find a way to play out your own style. But what ranking mode give to player community?
More fun?
More skilled player contempt to new player? 
People spend a lot of time practicing techniques just to ranking?
They even forgot that the game was supposed to be simple to having fun?
When the ranking mechanism is introduced, it will only seriously exacerbate the chain of contempt between players. 
Will be just consume the life of this game.
In many games with e-sports as a selling point, we can often see moments when a large number of players have high blood pressure. Even use illegal means such as hacking for victory. 

The above took me close to half an hour to write. I really don't want a game that I have play about 5 years being not fun anymore. I don't want everyone to forget the simple joy of the game just for ranking. I think the development of War Thunder e-sports only needs to be the same as before, which is what a small number of players care about, and the majority of players are normal gaming and having fun, and there is not much comparability among players. We don't worry too much about winning or not.
I hope that limited development resources can be used to develop more interesting gameplay of the game, not how to consume the life of the game, let alone how to create more hatred.

Edited September 6, 2022 by IIIlIlIlIlIlIlIl

[Metrallaroja 1,237]

11 minutes ago, Bruce_R1 said:

I'll bet money I was in more tournaments than you this weekend. Also, where are you on this list (mostly joystick players in a RB event)? 

This is offtopic we are not talking about RB races here , this is all about RB 1vs1, 2vs2 etc air duels which is what is about this event.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Metrallaroja

[Bruce_R1 1,938]

Just now, Metrallaroja said:

This is offtopic we are not talking about RB races here , this is all about RB 1vs1, 2vs2 etc duels which is what is about this event.

So joysticks for the RACING Air RB events are still okay by you, got it. Tell me: do they disable turning off instructor mode on any of the existing RB (or AB) tournaments (all those 1v1 and 2v2 duels) at tss.warthunder.com? How about all the ground and naval tournaments that have CAS in them? In fact, have they ever done that for any competitive RB event in, say, the last two years? Take your time researching. I'll wait.

[esapekkis 2,625]

39 minutes ago, ThatAcer said:

man you dont know how tournaments work. Here for you, thats top TSS Air gameplay 

 

 

Sorry, but you need probably to explain a bit more carfeully to a n00b like myself: I mean after watching that video for a while it appears to me that the player in it is not solely using those dreaded "sim controlls" but instead also using mouse aim and constatly toggling between it and full-real/realistic controls. If the "sim controls" alone gives you so big advantage why the constant toggling back to inferior mouse aim? Maybe I understood something wrong?

 

I'm not sure if you noticed but I asked earlier: 

1 hour ago, esapekkis said:

 

Using a control scheme without working virtual instructor might give you some advantages, but it also gives you some clear disadvantages compared to mouse aim controls. Would it be enough if you could not toggle between the control schemes during the fight when ever you can gain an advantage using the other control scheme?

 

So would it be okay if you had to play purely with one controll scheme the whole match, thus having to deal with the disadvantages of both sytems insetad of picking the good parts from both systems?

Edited September 6, 2022 by esapekkis

[ThatAcer 543]

3 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

 

Sorry, but you need probably to explain a bit more carfeully to a n00b like myself: I mean after watching that video for a while it ideed appears to me that the player in it is not solely using those dreaded "sim controlls" but instead also using mouse aim and constatly toggling between it and full-real/realistic controls. If the "sim controls" alone gives you so big advantage why the constant toggling back to inferior mouse aim? Maybe I understood something wrong?

You have an big advantage if you use sim in a raid fight for turning also MEC helps alot aswell. MEC is probably more learnable for most people.

Also there are SB tournaments for SB aswell so no need that SB controls (like full real) need to stay in RB tournaments.

3 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

I'm not sure if you noticed but I asked earlier: 

 

So would it be okay if you had to play purely with one controll scheme the whole match, thus having to deal with the disadvantages of both sytems insetad of picking the good parts from both systems?

 

[NinjaScarf 11]

6 minutes ago, esapekkis said:

So would it be okay if you had to play purely with one controll scheme the whole match, thus having to deal with the disadvantages of both sytems insetad of picking the good parts from both systems?

The only disadvantages that one may have to deal with when using sim controls are purely to do with ease of aiming and perhaps tracking. If you would have two players follow the exact same patterns starting from the merge, the one who was using sim controls would outperform the other. Disabling the instructor with sim controls allows for the plane quite simply pull more. The easiest place to observe this difference is if you have the two planes start in equal position in a rate(flat turn) fight on the deck. The person holding s with rb controls will lose to the sim joystick pull.

[Metrallaroja 1,237]

29 minutes ago, Bruce_R1 said:

So joysticks for the RACING Air RB events are still okay by you, got it. Tell me: do they disable turning off instructor mode on any of the existing RB (or AB) tournaments (all those 1v1 and 2v2 duels) at tss.warthunder.com? How about all the ground and naval tournaments that have CAS in them? In fact, have they ever done that for any competitive RB event in, say, the last two years? Take your time researching. I'll wait.

All top 50 players in tss have been asking for the instructor to be locked (Force virtual instr ucor --> Yes) in RB air duels for ages, why we should keep such a bad thing in this recently born mode?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Metrallaroja

[LIGHTNINGMCQUEEN 80]

The air format is really fun, incredible addition! For Air Realistic, I recommend removing SB controls, as they provide an advantage to people that do not have SB controls bound (the majority of the playerbase). I like the plans you guys have in the works aswell, as different BRs for dueling is also a good way to mix things up every now and then.

[[email protected] 27]

Please consider forcing Virtual instructor for RB modes! Full real and Realistic controls offer big advantages to players using Joystick/mouse joystick. For example, when using Full real and realistic controls, commonly referred to as SB or sim controls, the 109 F4 can complete a full turn roughly a second faster by pulling 2-3 degrees more aoa. There are a few reasons why allowing sb control modes will be bad for player interest and mode longevity:

 

Firstly, much of this mode has been designed around creating an even playing field for all players. By allowing sb controls, new players will have a much harder time against those who have practiced with sb controls. Dueling is extremely skill intensive and hard to learn even with virtual instructor enabled, by allowing sb controls the barrier to entry is raised even further, discouraging new players from trying the mode. We have even seen example of this before. In TSS. In 2017 ~ 2019 tournament player count was much higher than today and during that time very few players used SB controls. There are several reasons for this drop in player count, but one of the big ones is that an increasing number of players started using SB controls, creating a higher barrier to entry. This resulted in fewer new players playing tournaments. By creating an uneven playing field, new players will be discouraged and in turn will not participate in the new mode.

 

Secondly, SB controls is bad for gameplay. Sb controls encourage passive play with zero opportunity for counterplay when playing with virtual instructor-aided modes. This often leads to infinite sustained turns (ei flat turns on the deck) until fuel runs out. This is neither fun to play nor watch. This is because SB controls make it challenging to preform fast direction changes so players will default to sustained turns. It is impossible to counter this with aggressive mouse aim play because SB controls simply allow you to turn so much faster. As such, a player using virtual instructor will either lose in 3 turns or be locked into flat turning on the deck until fuel is out. Again, this is extremely boring to watch and play. If this mode were to be streamed this would severely hurt viewership and general interest of players. It also drives out experienced players who do not wish to partake in the rate fighting snooze fest.

 

 

Due to the uneven playing field and boring gameplay created by sb controls, it would be beneficial to force virtual instructor for all RB duel modes. Virtual instructor gives those who wish to play joystick/mouse joystick an even playing field through simplified controls while continuing to encourage dynamic and aggressive mouse aim play. Forcing virtual instructor would ensure the maximum success and longevity of this new mode.

 

 

Thank you for your time and consideration of my suggestion!

Edited September 6, 2022 by [email protected]

[esapekkis 2,625]

20 minutes ago, NinjaScarf said:

The only disadvantages that one may have to deal with when using sim controls are purely to do with ease of aiming and perhaps tracking. If you would have two players follow the exact same patterns starting from the merge, the one who was using sim controls would outperform the other. Disabling the instructor with sim controls allows for the plane quite simply pull more. The easiest place to observe this difference is if you have the two planes start in equal position in a rate(flat turn) fight on the deck. The person holding s with rb controls will lose to the sim joystick pull.

 

Ease of aiming is not the only advantage mosue aim has. Superior stall characteristics goes also clearly to instructor controlled planes. Instantaneous turn / 1 circle fighting is where flying without instructor is clearly an advantage since you can pull harder. But I have to admit that on 2 circle fighting I'm not do not know which one is the better. Plane spesific maybe?

Edited September 6, 2022 by esapekkis

[LIGHTNINGMCQUEEN 80]

1 hour ago, Bruce_R1 said:

Or you know, they could buy a good joystick and learn to use it to compete when they're in a world-wide competition for a flight sim game. Lots of people switch to joystick now for things like the Po-2 races. Do we turn joystick- and rudder-enabling features for those events as well?

 

29 minutes ago, Bruce_R1 said:

So joysticks for the RACING Air RB events are still okay by you, got it. Tell me: do they disable turning off instructor mode on any of the existing RB (or AB) tournaments (all those 1v1 and 2v2 duels) at tss.warthunder.com? How about all the ground and naval tournaments that have CAS in them? In fact, have they ever done that for any competitive RB event in, say, the last two years? Take your time researching. I'll wait.

Unfortunately something being precedent does not mean its a good idea. If Joystick players are so good they will still be able to compete with the AoA and other advantages removed. I play a large amount of tournaments, and almost all of my fellow duelists want SB / Full-Real controls removed.

I am looking at the TSS leaderboards now, and you are not in the top 50 for any of the 3 aircraft modes? How good you are does not matter in terms of arguments, but being bad can lead you to form worse opinions.