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Panzer 3/2. FFI salvage


CaID
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Would you like the Panzer 3/2 to be added to the game?  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like the Panzer 3/2 to be added to the game?

    • Yes
      14
    • Yes as event/premium
      19
    • No
      4


db72dee438146ad911c3c308b13c3412.jpg

 

 I would like to suggest a rather odd-ball for the French ground forces, the Panzer 3/2

elHok0K.jpg

the french Flag and the FFI marking is clearly visible on the front.

 

If you feel like this name is made up, well, it is a name i choose as the tank do not have any know name.

this tank is a unique and mysterious tank that appear during a liberation parade in the hands of the French FFI. the origin of the tank is still unknown. it was likely a Damaged Panzer III ausf J who's turret was missing or too damaged to be used. and a Panzer II ausf F turret would was possibly used as fortification. why i suppose it was a fortification and not used in a Panzer 2 tank? simply because the turret right wouldn't need to be changed. the turret on the fortification was coming with a plate that already include a proper turret right, using it, you just need to put the new turret over the existing turret holes and weld the plate over the chassis. this reduce the need of modification on the chassis and make the job a lot easier. intact, a bunch of men could make the modification without any specialized tools. like this fallowing photo show.

G06AnXD.jpg

nothing is confirm but this theory appear to me as very likely. the soldier could mount the new turret in a matter of 1 hours or so. this conversion could be done very quick.

as the FFI was in dear need of military material to join the momentum of the allied liberation of France and the retreat of the German, such tank would be extremely welcome. in matter of fact, it would be a bit better than a Panzer II. the tank was seen in 1944 but no trace was found after this picture was taken. this could mean the tank was destroyed shortly after or scrapped after WW2.

 

 

Firepower

the Panzer 3/2 was armed with a 20mm Kwk38 auto-cannon. making it one of the few french tank that was using a proper auto-cannon during WW2. this auto-cannon offer a good firepower and good fire-rate. capable to use HVAP rounds to deal with heavier tanks, it would be an excellent support tank. but not a so competitive one in the front line, taking advantage of his fast fire-rate, you could possibly make it better in ambush and flanking than the front line.

the ammo load is unknown, but likely carrying more than the Panzer II as the Panzer III chassis is having a lot more space.

a Coaxial 7.92 mm MG 34 is placed on the side of the gun.

a hull 7.92mm MG 34 is placed on the right side of the front

 

20 mm KwK38 Turret rotation speed (°/s) Reloading rate (seconds)
Mode Capacity (Belt) Fire rate Vertical Horizontal Stabilizer Stock Upgraded Full Expert Aced Stock Full Expert Aced
Arcade 180 (10) 450 -9°/+20° ±180° Vertical 13.33 18.45 22.40 24.77 26.35 7.80 6.90 6.36 6.00
Realistic 8.33 9.80 11.90 13.16 14.00
Penetration statistics
Belt Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
10 m 100 m 500 m 1,000 m 1,500 m 2,000 m
Default 37 34 23 14 9 6
PzGr 37 34 23 14 9 6
PzGr 40 48 45 31 20 13 8
Belt details
Belt Type of
warhead
Velocity
(m/s)
Projectile
Mass (kg)
Fuse delay
(m)
Fuse sensitivity
(mm)
Explosive Mass
(TNT equivalent) (g)
Ricochet
0% 50% 100%
PzGr API-T 800 0.15 N/A N/A N/A 47° 60° 65°
PzGr 40 HVAP-T 1,050 0.10 N/A N/A N/A 66° 70° 72°

 

 

 

Mobility

the weight of the Panzer 3/2 is not stated, but could be guessed. according to the Russian document, the weight of the Panzer II turret is 700 kg, the variants is not know but they shall not be so far from one another. and the weight of the Panzer III turret is  2140 kg. this do not include the ammo load but already give us the clue the weight is at least 1.440 kg lighter. sicne we known the Panzer III ausf J is 21.8 tonnes, the change of the turret shall give at least reduction to 20.4 tonnes. but outside the weight of the turret, the rounds are also lighter., the Pazer III ausf J carry 471.9 kg in 50mm rounds while the Panzer II ausf F carry 54 kg of 20mm rounds. even if we suppose the Panzer 3/2 carry twice as much rounds, it remain a difference close to 3.5 kg. giving this extimation, the tank shall weight about 20 tonnes. and i will use this weight as place holder until we know more about his exact weight.  giving it have a 300 hp engine, the power/weight ration would reach 15 hp/tonnes and that would make this tank having great mobility, actually a mobility getting close to the M24. the top speed probably go above 54 km/h a bit but we do not know exactly how fast it could go. so we will keep the 54 km/h

Game Mode Max Speed (km/h) Weight (tons) Engine power (horsepower) Power-to-weight ratio (hp/ton)
Forward Reverse Stock Upgraded Stock Upgraded
Arcade 60 12 20 465 572 23.25 28.6
Realistic 54 10 265 300 13.25 15.00

 

Protection

the armour of this tank is between the Panzer III and Panzer II. the hull is well protected, more protected than the Panzer II but the turret is less protected than the Panzer III. together, it give a performance in the middle. the chassis was created to have a 3 men turret, only the Panzer II is a 2 men turret. this make the tank have a total crew of 4 men which is not bad for a low rank french tank.

Armour Front Sides Rear Roof
Hull 50 mm (12°) Front plate
25 mm (86°), 50 mm (52°) Front glacis
50 mm (23-69°) Lower glacis
30 mm 50 mm (14-46°) Top
50 mm (10-66°) Bottom
15 mm
Turret 30 mm 15 mm 15 mm 10 mm
Cupola 15 mm (spherical) 10 mm

 

 

Specifications
Mass est. 20.0 tonnes
Length 5.56 m (18 ft 3 in)
Width 2.90 m (9 ft 6 in)
Height 2.5 m (8 ft 2 in)
Crew 4 (commander, gunner, driver, radio operator/bow machine-gunner)

Armour 50-30 mm
Main
armament
1 × 2 cm KwK 38 L/55
Secondary
armament
2 × 7.92 mm Maschinengewehr 34
Engine 12-cylinder Maybach HL120 TRM
300 PS (296 hp, 220 kW)
Power/weight 15 hp / tonne
Suspension Torsion-bar suspension
Fuel capacity 300-320 litres
Operational
range
165 km (103 mi)
Maximum speed 54 km/h

 

Source

 

for the weight of the turret

Spoiler

3P9CxNq.jpg

 

for the chassis

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Pz.III_J

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_III_ausf_J_60.html

https://www.ontrmuseum.ca/tankmuseum/blog-post/our-panzer-iii-ausf-j/

 

For the turret

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Pz.II_F

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_II

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_II_ausf_F.html

 

Both together

https://radio-rhodesia.livejournal.com/1157870.html?replyto=3192558

https://diorama.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=396878

https://vk.com/wall-49597300_963874

https://seryj221221.livejournal.com/480619.html?view=comments

http://fai.org.ru/forum/topic/39142-ai-kartinki-bronetehniki/?page=2

Edited by CaID
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  • Suggestion Moderator

Open for discussion:goodsnail:

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1 hour ago, Abaddon75 said:

a franken-tank worse than its respective donators? Yes pleaze, it looks unique and would give some automatic 20 to rank 1 of France

 

technically, it would be much better than the Panzer II ausf F due to the chassis been more mobile and more protected. it would also have 1 more crew men.

so i gess the BR would be higher than the PZ II F and lower than the PZ III J, i guess 2.0 is alright

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It's very cute.

Also it'd be a good way to represent the extensive use of leftover German equipment in the main French tree with a vehicle that's very distinct from anything in the German tree.

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+1 even though I don't think it should have access to the HVAPT rounds.

 

2 minutes ago, Valcour said:

+1 even though I don't think it should have access to the HVAPT rounds.

 

The tungsten scored rounds were rare as hen's teeth for the Germans in WW2.  To think they would have had enough of it lying around in France post war is ludicrous.

 

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7 hours ago, Valcour said:

+1 even though I don't think it should have access to the HVAPT rounds.

 

The tungsten scored rounds were rare as hen's teeth for the Germans in WW2.  To think they would have had enough of it lying around in France post war is ludicrous.

 

Germany was tending to have the PzGr.40 in small quantity in about every of their vehicles. they avoided to use them. they only used them when encountering a real tank.


since the German was running out of fuel and the South-west of France was defended by secondary unites of German and defence, there was a lot of Panzer II captured by France in various states of damage, that with the fact France had captured a used hundreds of 2cm Flak static turret. they was very likely to have a stock of tungsten rounds that would feel endless as France reused about 1 tank out of 100 abandoned because they couldn't repaired them.

 

for the Panzer II, there was dozens of static turret laying around on the Atlantic wall and improvised defense and probably hundreds of Panzer II lost in France during 1944 as the German fought with all they could use. the Panzer II been the main reconnaissance vehicles was often send away with little support from the main forces. needless to say that a Panzer II couldn't survive a fight with a Sherman

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