french medium tank Panzer 3/2. FFI salvage

[CaID 8,151]

 

 I would like to suggest a rather odd-ball for the French ground forces, the Panzer 3/2

^{the french Flag and the FFI marking is clearly visible on the front.}

 

If you feel like this name is made up, well, it is a name i choose as the tank do not have any know name.

this tank is a unique and mysterious tank that appear during a liberation parade in the hands of the French FFI. the origin of the tank is still unknown. it was likely a Damaged Panzer III ausf J who's turret was missing or too damaged to be used. and a Panzer II ausf F turret would was possibly used as fortification. why i suppose it was a fortification and not used in a Panzer 2 tank? simply because the turret right wouldn't need to be changed. the turret on the fortification was coming with a plate that already include a proper turret right, using it, you just need to put the new turret over the existing turret holes and weld the plate over the chassis. this reduce the need of modification on the chassis and make the job a lot easier. intact, a bunch of men could make the modification without any specialized tools. like this fallowing photo show.

nothing is confirm but this theory appear to me as very likely. the soldier could mount the new turret in a matter of 1 hours or so. this conversion could be done very quick.

as the FFI was in dear need of military material to join the momentum of the allied liberation of France and the retreat of the German, such tank would be extremely welcome. in matter of fact, it would be a bit better than a Panzer II. the tank was seen in 1944 but no trace was found after this picture was taken. this could mean the tank was destroyed shortly after or scrapped after WW2.

 

 

Firepower

the Panzer 3/2 was armed with a 20mm Kwk38 auto-cannon. making it one of the few french tank that was using a proper auto-cannon during WW2. this auto-cannon offer a good firepower and good fire-rate. capable to use HVAP rounds to deal with heavier tanks, it would be an excellent support tank. but not a so competitive one in the front line, taking advantage of his fast fire-rate, you could possibly make it better in ambush and flanking than the front line.

the ammo load is unknown, but likely carrying more than the Panzer II as the Panzer III chassis is having a lot more space.

a Coaxial 7.92 mm MG 34 is placed on the side of the gun.

a hull 7.92mm MG 34 is placed on the right side of the front

 

20 mm KwK38						Turret rotation speed (°/s)					Reloading rate (seconds)
Mode	Capacity (Belt)	Fire rate	Vertical	Horizontal	Stabilizer	Stock	Upgraded	Full	Expert	Aced	Stock	Full	Expert	Aced
Arcade	180 (10)	450	-9°/+20°	±180°	Vertical	13.33	18.45	22.40	24.77	26.35	7.80	6.90	6.36	6.00
Realistic						8.33	9.80	11.90	13.16	14.00

Penetration statistics
Belt	Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
	10 m	100 m	500 m	1,000 m	1,500 m	2,000 m
Default	37	34	23	14	9	6
PzGr	37	34	23	14	9	6
PzGr 40	48	45	31	20	13	8

Belt details
Belt	Type of warhead	Velocity (m/s)	Projectile Mass (kg)	Fuse delay (m)	Fuse sensitivity (mm)	Explosive Mass (TNT equivalent) (g)	Ricochet
							0%	50%	100%
PzGr	API-T	800	0.15	N/A	N/A	N/A	47°	60°	65°
PzGr 40	HVAP-T	1,050	0.10	N/A	N/A	N/A	66°	70°	72°

 

 

 

Mobility

the weight of the Panzer 3/2 is not stated, but could be guessed. according to the Russian document, the weight of the Panzer II turret is 700 kg, the variants is not know but they shall not be so far from one another. and the weight of the Panzer III turret is  2140 kg. this do not include the ammo load but already give us the clue the weight is at least 1.440 kg lighter. sicne we known the Panzer III ausf J is 21.8 tonnes, the change of the turret shall give at least reduction to 20.4 tonnes. but outside the weight of the turret, the rounds are also lighter., the Pazer III ausf J carry 471.9 kg in 50mm rounds while the Panzer II ausf F carry 54 kg of 20mm rounds. even if we suppose the Panzer 3/2 carry twice as much rounds, it remain a difference close to 3.5 kg. giving this extimation, the tank shall weight about 20 tonnes. and i will use this weight as place holder until we know more about his exact weight.  giving it have a 300 hp engine, the power/weight ration would reach 15 hp/tonnes and that would make this tank having great mobility, actually a mobility getting close to the M24. the top speed probably go above 54 km/h a bit but we do not know exactly how fast it could go. so we will keep the 54 km/h

Game Mode	Max Speed (km/h)		Weight (tons)	Engine power (horsepower)		Power-to-weight ratio (hp/ton)
	Forward	Reverse		Stock	Upgraded	Stock	Upgraded
Arcade	60	12	20	465	572	23.25	28.6
Realistic	54	10		265	300	13.25	15.00

 

Protection

the armour of this tank is between the Panzer III and Panzer II. the hull is well protected, more protected than the Panzer II but the turret is less protected than the Panzer III. together, it give a performance in the middle. the chassis was created to have a 3 men turret, only the Panzer II is a 2 men turret. this make the tank have a total crew of 4 men which is not bad for a low rank french tank.

Armour	Front	Sides	Rear	Roof
Hull	50 mm (12°) Front plate 25 mm (86°), 50 mm (52°) Front glacis 50 mm (23-69°) Lower glacis	30 mm	50 mm (14-46°) Top 50 mm (10-66°) Bottom	15 mm
Turret	30 mm	15 mm	15 mm	10 mm
Cupola	15 mm (spherical)			10 mm

 

 

Specifications
Mass	est. 20.0 tonnes
Length	5.56 m (18 ft 3 in)
Width	2.90 m (9 ft 6 in)
Height	2.5 m (8 ft 2 in)
Crew	4 (commander, gunner, driver, radio operator/bow machine-gunner)
Armour	50-30 mm
Main armament	1 × 2 cm KwK 38 L/55
Secondary armament	2 × 7.92 mm Maschinengewehr 34
Engine	12-cylinder Maybach HL120 TRM 300 PS (296 hp, 220 kW)
Power/weight	15 hp / tonne
Suspension	Torsion-bar suspension
Fuel capacity	300-320 litres
Operational range	165 km (103 mi)
Maximum speed	54 km/h

 

Source

 

for the weight of the turret

Spoiler

 

for the chassis

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Pz.III_J

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_III_ausf_J_60.html

https://www.ontrmuseum.ca/tankmuseum/blog-post/our-panzer-iii-ausf-j/

 

For the turret

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Pz.II_F

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_II

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_II_ausf_F.html

 

Both together

https://radio-rhodesia.livejournal.com/1157870.html?replyto=3192558

https://diorama.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=396878

https://vk.com/wall-49597300_963874

https://seryj221221.livejournal.com/480619.html?view=comments

http://fai.org.ru/forum/topic/39142-ai-kartinki-bronetehniki/?page=2

Edited June 23 by CaID

[kurururocks 113]

Open for discussion

[DMYEugen 322]

This thing looks terrible and I want it right now. +1

[Abaddon75 376]

a franken-tank worse than its respective donators? Yes pleaze, it looks unique and would give some automatic 20 to rank 1 of France

 

Edited June 23 by Abaddon75

[CaID 8,151]

1 hour ago, Abaddon75 said:

a franken-tank worse than its respective donators? Yes pleaze, it looks unique and would give some automatic 20 to rank 1 of France

 

technically, it would be much better than the Panzer II ausf F due to the chassis been more mobile and more protected. it would also have 1 more crew men.

so i gess the BR would be higher than the PZ II F and lower than the PZ III J, i guess 2.0 is alright

[hienapunk 353]

It's very cute.

Also it'd be a good way to represent the extensive use of leftover German equipment in the main French tree with a vehicle that's very distinct from anything in the German tree.

[Milocat 4,124]

What a crazy find.  +1, I would definitely like to see this.  

[G1label 23]

+1 Give France some low tier autocannon action.

[Valcour 984]

+1 even though I don't think it should have access to the HVAPT rounds.

 

2 minutes ago, Valcour said:

+1 even though I don't think it should have access to the HVAPT rounds.

 

The tungsten scored rounds were rare as hen's teeth for the Germans in WW2.  To think they would have had enough of it lying around in France post war is ludicrous.

 

[CaID 8,151]

7 hours ago, Valcour said:

+1 even though I don't think it should have access to the HVAPT rounds.

 

The tungsten scored rounds were rare as hen's teeth for the Germans in WW2.  To think they would have had enough of it lying around in France post war is ludicrous.

 

Germany was tending to have the PzGr.40 in small quantity in about every of their vehicles. they avoided to use them. they only used them when encountering a real tank.

since the German was running out of fuel and the South-west of France was defended by secondary unites of German and defence, there was a lot of Panzer II captured by France in various states of damage, that with the fact France had captured a used hundreds of 2cm Flak static turret. they was very likely to have a stock of tungsten rounds that would feel endless as France reused about 1 tank out of 100 abandoned because they couldn't repaired them.

 

for the Panzer II, there was dozens of static turret laying around on the Atlantic wall and improvised defense and probably hundreds of Panzer II lost in France during 1944 as the German fought with all they could use. the Panzer II been the main reconnaissance vehicles was often send away with little support from the main forces. needless to say that a Panzer II couldn't survive a fight with a Sherman