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Why a Tiger fights against T-92?


AdelWolf
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Hello Dear Friends,

 

I have some questions which are as following; 

Why does the my Tiger I WW2 tank fights against post WW2 tank T-92 with HEATFS?

image.png.78ec09acd423116054f9a83a6da844 image.png.ca139e7fc08064288c4d7ecac42758

As I cannot comprehend the logic behind it, I get frustrated and I loose interest in the game.

As you can clearly see there is 10-15 years difference between those two tanks. 

As you can clearly understand where one is WW2 era other one is post WW2 era tank.

 

There was a logic and a reason behind having a TICK armor because it was belived that TICK armor would protect you if it did not work as intended they wouldn't have bothered making TICK armor because you clearly sacrifice mobilty and agility for it for the sake of survival with a big gun with long reload time. So what is the point of having TICK armor if you get to fight against HEATFS?

They are faster, more mobile and agile, they have better gun despite being smaller with ashorter reload time then why the *** it faces against a TIGER I ???? I don't think by the time T-92 was founded people were still using Tigers around... 

 

 

So my question is why does my WW2 era slow, sluggish, poor kitty Tiger I has to face against a POST WW2 ERA TANK WITH BETTER MOBILITY, AGILITY, WEAPON AND HEATFS WITH NIGHT VISIONS ???

 

Yours sincerely 

Edited by AdelWolf
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It's plenty of "modern vehicles" vs WWII.
Almost every nation has similar things, all depends about the strenght of the vehicle itself.

Italy: R3
URSS: BTR-152

GB: Concept 3

Cina: ZTS63
France: AMX-13
Israel: (everything)
Sweden: Pvkv M/43

 

Since the game it's "Realistic" and not "Historical" there is nothing wrong here. The real question is: is this discussion useful for something or just a rant/spam?

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12 minutes ago, BlueBeta said:

Since the game it's "Realistic" and not "Historical" there is nothing wrong here. The real question is: is this discussion useful for something or just a rant/spam?

 

This ^^ 

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1 hour ago, Dianeces said:

Oh, look, it's this thread again. And just like every other time, it was made by a Tiger player. Imagine that.

 

Used in a full uptier. "But I wanna play what and how I want regardless of constraints in the game every other player works around".

 

Though saying that I still use the Heavy 6 in the full uptier since it can fill the role as a not the best Medium. But I have no Panther option at 5.7 so make it work. T-92 doesn't like the 88 and HEAT-FS is not a wonder round, I bring you the Bush. And that's once you have gotten past everyone's favorite round: APCR :pinki2:

 

More importantly,  why is someone meeting a 6.7 in a 5.3 (the H is shown)?

Edited by CoffeeBean100
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One issue is that those small, unarmored, but very powerful fast movers have too low BRs. Main balance seems to be around armor and gun power. Speed & good gunhandling seems to be just tertiary. Weak armor is often not that bad anyways, since it alot shell types won't fuse on it and KE penetrators cause less spalling. The small size and often flat profiles make them less visible on open maps and allow very deadly tactics involving the abuse of certain power positions. With common graphic setting most of them are almost invisible in grasslands and especially between bushes.

 

The game mechanic itself favors them: Ground Forces is about  getting cap points. Fast tanks or vehicles excell in exactly this, while slow moving WW2 tanks fail. You'll lose almost every match due to ticket bleed. I just played my new Elefant TD to do a couple of BP tasks. The K/D is acceptable, considering my playstyle and how powerful typical enemy vehicles are (most can just pen your "heavy" TD), but winrate is around 30%...this is rubbish. You lose almost every match, since med/heavy tank teams just totally fail to cap points.  

 

Additionally I've also have the impression that small vehicles are alot harder to spot from the air. I've made the expierience that small vehicles scale very stange for pilots. The are invisible and just pop into your view when you're very low. While normal sized tanks are visible as grey boxes from far away.

 

Gajin should do something to tackle the capping issue. Maybe fast moving SPAA trucks, light vehicles and light tanks shouldn't be able to cap points? I mean there needs to be a fix, otherwise tanks become more and more pointless to play. It would also serve as incentive to play real tank models instead of all those yolo cars. 

 

All this should be considered while determining BRs. T92 for instance would also do well at higher BRs. When this flat and speedy thing goes vs. slow 1941 box-like tanks...just dumb. Especially with that pen.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Thodin
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38 minutes ago, Thodin said:

One issue is that those small, unarmored, but very powerful fast movers have too low BRs. Main balance seems to be around armor and gun power. Speed & good gunhandling seems to be just tertiary. Weak armor is often not that bad anyways, since it alot shell types won't fuse on it and KE penetrators cause less spalling. The small size and often flat profiles make them less visible on open maps and allow very deadly tactics involving the abuse of certain power positions. With common graphic setting most of them are almost invisible in grasslands and especially between bushes.

 

The game mechanic itself favors them: Ground Forces is about  getting cap points. Fast tanks or vehicles excell in exactly this, while slow moving WW2 tanks fail. You'll lose almost every match due to ticket bleed. I just played my new Elefant TD to do a couple of BP tasks. The K/D is acceptable, considering my playstyle and how powerful typical enemy vehicles are (most can just pen your "heavy" TD), but winrate is around 30%...this is rubbish. You lose almost every match, since med/heavy tank teams just totally fail to cap points.  

 

Additionally I've also have the impression that small vehicles are alot harder to spot from the air. I've made the expierience that small vehicles scale very stange for pilots. The are invisible and just pop into your view when you're very low. While normal sized tanks are visible as grey boxes from far away.

 

Gajin should do something to tackle the capping issue. Maybe fast moving SPAA trucks, light vehicles and light tanks shouldn't be able to cap points? I mean there needs to be a fix, otherwise tanks become more and more pointless to play. It would also serve as incentive to play real tank models instead of all those yolo cars. 

 

All this should be considered while determining BRs. T92 for instance would also do well at higher BRs. When this flat and speedy thing goes vs. slow 1941 box-like tanks...just dumb. Especially with that pen.


The T92 is bad. You think KE have bad spalling? HEAT has FAR worse postpen than ANY KE shell except maybe APCR (and brit APCR probably still beats it). 76mm HEAT will regularly fail to pass through a single crewman or cause ammo it hits to detonate. 

Panther 2s are faster than the T92 over most distances. Hell, most mediums are as fast as lights in this game. The Leo is faster than just about any light tank, only go-carts are faster. 

The problem isn't light tanks, its bad German teams. A large portion of german players are playing their first nation tree and don't understand basic game mechanics. They regularly perform poorly with significantly better vehicles than their competition. 

What do you think the purpose of light vehicles is? Capping points and flanking. And you want to remove their ability to CAP POINTS? christ. If you want a fun exercise, try to find a SINGLE light vehicle in this game that has a better KDR than the Tiger 2 on thunderskill. I'll wait. 

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1 hour ago, Zephoid said:

Panther 2s are faster than the T92 over most distances. Hell, most mediums are as fast as lights in this game. The Leo is faster than just about any light tank, only go-carts are faster. 
 

 

I looking at Ger TT for minutes now. But where is this Panther II your'e referring to?  

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4 minutes ago, Thodin said:

 

I looking at Ger TT for minutes now. But where is this Panther II your'e referring to?  


It was a TT tank for years, removed last year for... less than valid reasons. It still exists for everyone who researched it and will potentially come back for events like the Maus does. 
900hp panther chassis with the long 88 at 6.7. Nearly universally better than all the 6.7 light tanks people xxxxx about. 

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On 17/06/2022 at 18:12, BlueBeta said:

It's plenty of "modern vehicles" vs WWII.
Almost every nation has similar things, all depends about the strenght of the vehicle itself.

Italy: R3
URSS: BTR-152

GB: Concept 3

Cina: ZTS63
France: AMX-13
Israel: (everything)
Sweden: Pvkv M/43

 

Since the game it's "Realistic" and not "Historical" there is nothing wrong here. The real question is: is this discussion useful for something or just a rant/spam?

Well if they are matched dependent on the strength how come they are good match. Explain.

 

What makes you think a fat chunky slow 88 is a match for speedie Heatfs?

 

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On 19/06/2022 at 05:09, Zephoid said:


It was a TT tank for years, removed last year for... less than valid reasons. It still exists for everyone who researched it and will potentially come back for events like the Maus does. 
900hp panther chassis with the long 88 at 6.7. Nearly universally better than all the 6.7 light tanks people xxxxx about. 

 

It was removed because it was entirely fantasy and nothing like it ever existed even on paper.

 

It will never reappear even for "special occasions"........  or at least that's what reasonable people hope.

6 minutes ago, AdelWolf said:

What makes you think a fat chunky slow 88 is a match for speedie Heatfs?

 

Because 76mm HEAT-FS is rubbish in all it's varieties, and 88mm APHE will gut anythign that has it with 1 shot.

 

Anything else?

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22 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

 

It was removed because it was entirely fantasy and nothing like it ever existed even on paper.

Both existed on paper, but weren't prototyped. That being said, this game has a LOT of fantasy. If you go back to the threads created around the removal of the tanks, the WT contributors posted documents detailing both vehicles, though the panther 2 was designed with the 75 in mind. 

 sav 20.12 was prototyped, but the autoloader never worked and is a pure fantasy. Even the projections of it were for 5-6s reloads, not 4. 

Ho-Ri saw a prototype, never a production model. 

OBJ 906 was prototyped, but never tested before the project was scrapped.  

OBJ 120 never had either of its primary rounds that it has in game. 

Kikka is pure conjecture. It flew twice before crashing and the records of the test results didn't survive. 

r2y2s are pure conjecture. They didn't even survive to test, they caught fire or were bombed before they flew. 


Now, the Maus was removed despite having 2 produced models, which is more than a lot of the prototypes in this game. 

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1 hour ago, Zephoid said:

Both existed on paper, but weren't prototyped. 

 

"Both" what??  We are talking about ONE tank - the "old" Panther II as removed by gaijin - you don't get to have "both" of one thing!!

 

Certainly the turret was designed, and certainly a Panther II was designed - but they were entirely different things and the "narrow" turret was designed AFTER the Panther II was CANCELLED - so they didn't even "exist" in the same time frame!!

 

Plus the turret was going to carry a 75mm gun, not the 88.

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3 hours ago, AdelWolf said:

Well if they are matched dependent on the strength how come they are good match. Explain.

Those kind of vehicle can be wiped out with a single shot, if moved on highter ranks they will be ineffective against everything.

Now, please don't turn this discussion into a BR one because there is already a dedicated topic about that.

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5 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Now, the Maus was removed despite having 2 produced models, which is more than a lot of the prototypes in this game. 

AFAIK the Maus was removed not because of it being fantasy, but because it was very hard to balance.

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1 hour ago, Foxtrot_Ace said:

AFAIK the Maus was removed not because of it being fantasy, but because it was very hard to balance.


What differentiates the maus from the IS4 or T95?. Same balancing 'problems'. Oh no, in downteirs its strong but uptiers its terrible. Yup, same exact problem as a IS4 facing APFSDS and thermals or a T95 facing 600 pen ATGMs. 

 

5 hours ago, Josephs_Piano said:

 

"Both" what??  We are talking about ONE tank - the "old" Panther II as removed by gaijin - you don't get to have "both" of one thing!!

Sorry, both the Panther 2 and the Tiger2 105. 

But back to the subject at hand, era has nothing too do with tanks capabilities. The more you play this game, the more you realize that. Play the tanks you think are OP and all of a sudden they aren't. Few exceptions to that, but thats how all games go. 

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It's quite simple, don't play heavy tanks in a full uptier.

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6 hours ago, Zephoid said:

Sorry, both the Panther 2 and the Tiger2 105. 

 

 

Ah - that makes more sense :)

 

6 hours ago, Zephoid said:

But back to the subject at hand, era has nothing too do with tanks capabilities. The more you play this game, the more you realize that. Play the tanks you think are OP and all of a sudden they aren't. Few exceptions to that, but thats how all games go. 

 

Indeed that is how this game goes.  And it's a bloody shame - there are numerous methods of "balancing" things historically - I played historical WW2 games 50 years ago where yeah you could bring Tigers - 2 or 3 of them, and face as many Fireflies and rocket firing Typhoons plus 75mm Shermans on top of that....  and kept playing such games for 20 or so year.

 

Lots of "historical" wargames have balancing mechanisms that would work just fine in WT for a "Historical" mode too.

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2 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

 

Ah - that makes more sense :)

 

 

Indeed that is how this game goes.  And it's a bloody shame - there are numerous methods of "balancing" things historically - I played historical WW2 games 50 years ago where yeah you could bring Tigers - 2 or 3 of them, and face as many Fireflies and rocket firing Typhoons plus 75mm Shermans on top of that....  and kept playing such games for 20 or so year.

 

Lots of "historical" wargames have balancing mechanisms that would work just fine in WT for a "Historical" mode too.


Again, 'historical' RB events have been tried and they end up with very few players on the allied side. 80%+ german participation means the event rarely fires

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8 minutes ago, Zephoid said:


Again, 'historical' RB events have been tried and they end up with very few players on the allied side. 80%+ german participation means the event rarely fires

Because they use no balancing mechanisms - you can bring as many "Tigers" as you want.

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10 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

Because they use no balancing mechanisms - you can bring as many "Tigers" as you want.

You obviously didn't play or even see any of them. There were specific configurations of tanks that were available. 2-3 of x, 0-10 of y, 2 of z. There were limits to the tanks you could bring. They still weren't popular. You had a bunch of tigers and no one wanting to play pz3s. 

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number limits are not a balancing mechanism - the "cost" of bringing a Tiger was the use of 1 tank - exactly the same "as the "cost" of bringing any other tank.

 

If the "cost" of bringing a Tiger was that is was the only tank you could bring, then THAT would be a step towards balancing mechanism based on costs.

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