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Planned Battle Rating changes - November 2021


Stona
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Churchill Mk III (Realistic Battles) 4.3 - 3.7: This tank faces many vehicles above and below its BR that can penetrate its turret armour easily using APHE rounds that also easily kill the crew and/or detonate ammo racks. The gun of this vehicle has decent penetration but cannot match the destructive power of other tanks around its BR. This tank would be serve the tree better by bolstering the British 3.7 line-up. Currently there is no point in using it at 4.3 when there is the significantly better Churchill Mk VII at 4.7.

 

Black Prince (Realistic Battles) 6.0 - 5.7: There are no other British 6.0 tanks to form a line-up with the Black Prince and it is not strong enough to stand on its own. The Centurion Mk 1 at 5.7 is a superior vehicle in all aspects except armour but it also stands alone and would be bolstered by the addition of the Black Prince.

 

Tortoise (Realistic Battles) 6.7 - 6.3: The slow Tortoise relies primarily on its armour and firepower, however at its current BR it faces vehicles able to penetrate that armour with regular shells and also begins to see HEAT-FS shells in use that almost ignore the armour. Its gun fires APCBC which has only a slightly better penetration than the 17 Pounder APDS of tanks below it and beaten in penetration by the much more mobile Charioteer with its APDS round at 6.3. With the increase in BR of many superior British tanks around this area, it makes no sense to keep the Tortoise at 6.7.

 

 Chieftain Mk 10 (Realistic Battles) 9.0 to 8.7: A tank beaten in firepower and mobility by most of its peers at 9.0, the armour is it's only saving grace but it simply isn't a reason for a BR of 9.0 - a BR where firepower and mobility rule.

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Sd.Kfz 234/2:  2.7→3.7(RB)

seriously this one always been terribly under tiered. i keep seing them at 7.0 and they do kill often enough. high mobility, good penetration, fast reload. this vehicles is fitting to be play next to the Panther and Tiger more thank with the Panzer III. beside, i made serial pool camparing the Sd,Kfz 234/2 with other similar vehicles of the same type, namely the EBR 1951 & Concept 3 who are both 4.3, you can see on paper it do not fall behind, and in-game it also take his place well. a BR of 3.7 is a minimal extimation, it could eventually end up with 4.0 but i hardly see it go higher.

EBR 1951 : not sure about 4.7

it's true the EBR 1951 is fun to play and can do a lot of killing, only those can be done because of his mobility. not his firepower. at 4.3 it already meet a lot of difficulties fighting with vehicles such as the Kv-1, IS-1, Churchill, Tiger 1H and Panther D. any medium tank including the Panzer IV can be proven impossible to fight up to the front. the gun is just unable to penetrate half of the target. the players got to show skills when it come to fight a heavy tank, and in many case, it can only be done by "disable the gun, they get on the side" which can only be done if the fight is a 1 on 1. beside the reload was nerfed from the real thing making it worse than many vehicles of the same type. if it get moved to 4.7, the stock vehicles would just be unplayable, and the spaded one would just be too difficult to play. i cannot imagine how to fight a IS-2 with it when i already have difficulty to take down a KV-85 from the rear. maybe Gaijin should consider to change his fire-rate to the proper historical value of 14 rpm to at least make it capable to place a 2nd shot before the enemy turn the turret. at the opposite of the AMX 13 FL-11, the EBR 1951 have a crew of 4 which may mean the 2nd driver can assist the gunner. beside the in game role of the 2nd driver happen to be loader. see the details on the fire-rate in this bug report who was never corrected.

 

R3 T20 FA-HS:   4.7→5.7(RB)

Sd.Kfz.251/21:   3.3→4.3(RB)

AMX 13 DCA : 4.3→5.0(RB)

Ostwind: 3.7→4.0(RB)

Wirbelwind: 3.7→4.7(RB)

M16 MGMC : 2.3→3.7(RB)

BTR-152A : 2.7→4.3(RB)

ZSD63 : 4.3→5.3(RB)

so those above all have something in common, they are SPAA. that mean 2 thing, they are cheap to spawn, and they are often used as back up when the battle is lost. those are supposed to be evaluated to their ability to fight planes, not a tank. you cannot tell a M16 MGMC is bad because it cannot fight a KV-1 with his 12.7mm, it's made to fight a plane and at it, it can fight any plane up to the jets era, and they do it well! those SPAA, who's most of them are of the high fire-rate type, are capable to fight any planes up to a bunch of BR above. the only exception is the AMX 13 DCA who's capacity of killing planes is a bit average but his capacity of kill tank is exceptional. those vehicles cannot have the statistic be taken into consideration as they are taken to the battle as support vehicles until very late. i still see the M16 MGMC more often than the M42 duster at 7.3, it only change when the M163 is available. the AMX 13 DCA is literally the only SPAA until the AMX 30 DCA, there is currently a full 4.0 BR gap. that is a Huge gap making the player have no choice but to take this SPAA to clear the sky at a BR where it cannot properly fallow a plane in the sky. like at 7.0 where there is more jets than propeller planes. of course at this BR they are ineffective, but they are support vehicles and their fire-rate is more adapted to fight fighter than the bigger calibre who's are adapted to fight high altitude bombers. the statistic should all be scratch up and BR adjusted. lowering the BR of the spaa will only lower the BR of the plane, and we end-up with planes like the F6F-5 at 3.3 and capable to fight planes and tanks at 6.0 in mix battle. not because it's a so good planes, but because the SPAA shut them down too easily as they are themselves too low BR. the R3 T20 FA-HS, seriously, i see this vehicles be taken more often as rush for the capture points than as SPAA. as SPAA it do well, but as speed runner, as soon it get kill, 3/4 of the time they do not come back, and anything who's is not a light tank will destroy it easily, the R3 T20 just need to hope not to fall face to face.

 

The SPAA been underrated is a huge problem to the Balance, it cause all the planes to be underrated in turn as the SPAA are the main treat to them. if people complain about the CAS in realistic mix battle, it's part of because many planes are underrated due to the SPAA been underrated

 

AMX 13 FL-11

maybe you should consider to fix his mobility before increasing the BR. this thing is 20% heavier than it should be. a bug report was filled about it, and still pending. but yeah, they moderator had more focus on the new vehicles like the 4min old T25E5's bug than the AMX 13 who's bug was written serial months before. with his weight properly reduced to 12.7 tonnes, the power-weight will be increased and it would make it a lot more reactive in game and accelerate a lot faster. as for now, it got the weight of the AMX 13 DCA who's is the heaviest know AMX 13 built by france. the AMX 13 FL-10 have a huge turret, with a huge auto-loader, and a huge gun and is still lighter than the AMX 13 FL-11 at 14.7 tonnes. that is a non-sense that should sound a bell to the developer indicating something is wrong. i found the real weight of the AMX 13 FL-11 at 12.5 to 12.7 tonnes. this found on the net but also documented by finding the weight of the both turret and ammunition, doing a bit of calculation you can easily establish the weight to be approximately 12.7 tonnes which is fitting with the Logic and internet report. fixing the weight will make the players feel less of a unjustified BR raise over the M24 chaffee who's is superior in elevation, fire-rate, gun stability, and the 12.7mm on the roof.

 

Edited by CaID
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Cher25t:7.0>7.0
I don't think it's worth 7.3 just to get the explosives. He only got the explosives to finally make the vehicle worth 7.0.


AMX-13(FL11):3.7>3.7 (4.0 conditionally)
If you want to raise it to 4.0, you need to raise the M24 at the same time. it's puzzling that only the FL11 gets a raise.


EBR(1954):6.0>6.0 (or 6.3, giving APCBC)
Most incomprehensible change. He is a vehicle that at one time captured the glory of Warthunder as a xxx, but there is no sign of him now. Why do you need to force him to have an excessive BR increase? I think I said this before when the 1954 was 6.0, but Gaijin is overvaluing autoloaders. It would be reasonable to keep it at 6.0 or give it an APCBC if it is to be raised to 6.3.

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Pz.4G (Italy):

AB 4.3 -> 3.7

RB 4.0 -> 3.3

 

I personally disagree with the previously made decision of moving the Pz.4G of Germany to 3.3 in RB, but as you have seen it necessary to do so and have gone through with it, I see no reason why the Italian Pz.4G should be exempt. The 2 differences between the Pz.4G's (Italian one lacking wider tracks, gaining sheet metal around the turret) are in actual ingame combat, minute. Though if they were to be considered, the Italian one is worse off than the German one due to slightly less mobility and slightly more weight in ineffective "armor". As it stands, there is currently a difference of 2 BR units between the versions in both modes for no reason, hindering the Italian 3.3 lineup and reducing the value of this premium vehicle by limiting it to a higher BR lineup, whereas the German tech tree Pz.4G does not face such a hindrance and has a robust 3.3 lineup to support it. To move the Italian Pz.4G to 3.3 would bolster its value as a premium vehicle by increasing the amount of situations in which it could be used, allowing it to support the iconic (and in terms of lineup potential, decently lonely) P40, and in my mind most importantly, providing parity between functionally identical vehicles. The current situation of the Italian Pz.4G makes it feel as though it has been neglected in favor of its German brother, and certainly makes it a harder vehicle to sell when its brother in the German tech tree is in a much, much better spot for itself.

Please do not continue to neglect a vehicle which must be bought for real money. Please do not continue to neglect a vehicle which could greatly help the Italian 3.3 lineup. Please do not continue to allow this lack of parity between nations.

 

Black Prince:

AB/RB 6.0 -> 5.7

 

At the BR of 6.0, the Black Prince is not a nice experience, to say the least. Here I will compare it to its only 6.0 counterpart in the british tree, the Centurion 1. Its effective armor thickness is decent, but not better than that of the Centurion 1 by enough of a margin to warrant its use in battle. Their guns are identical, as well as ammunition choices. The Black Prince can achieve a slightly better reload, but the Centurion already beats the reload of most competitors anyway. The Black Prince's mobility is comparable to that of a 400lb paraplegic who has had their arms broken, while the Centurion 1 has mobility similar in most aspects to that of the T25. In comparison to its peers of other nations, the Black Prince's only advantage is firepower, except in the case of the IS-2, in which case its advantage is its reload rate. This was shown (surely to the embarrassment of the Black Prince) exceptionally well in the Shooting Range #261, in which the Black Prince very much had its **** handed to it on the queen's finest royal china. This vehicle's only real selling point is its uniqueness (for better or for worse), as it is a fantastic hangar decorator, and useful for nothing else. As a product, this is an extremely hard sell for many, and I believe that could be rectified if it were moved to 5.7, where it could not only do better for itself, but it could also support a lineup with the Comet and Challenger, and even the AC4 and QF Ram if you want to get spicy. Also, with the ongoing sale, it would surely make the Black Friday pack more appealing to people if this vehicle were to be moved down, for what that's worth, given that the Black Prince and P-61A-1 are widely considered the duds of the pack.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

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Added other planned changes:

 

Balance changes in the fire rate (shots per minute)

  • Ikv 103     6 → 7.5
  • SU-57B 12 → 14
  • ASU-85 7 → 8.4
  • Sturmpanzer II 4 → 4.5
  • Marder III 8,4 → 10
  • SU-5-1    12 → 14
  • Ho-Ro    3 → 4.5

 

New ammunition added

  • T-90A — 3BМ60
  • M1A2 — M829A2
  • Leopard 2PL — DM53
  • Leopard 2A5 — DM53
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P-40C:
RB 2.7 -> 2.3

 

This premium is identical in all aspects to another premium in another tree, the H-81A-2. However, the H-81A-2 currently sits at 2.3. There is no reason for its american counterpart to be sat at a higher br with no difference in performance. Their BR's should be identical due to the mentioned identical performance and to promote parity between nations.

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Ground RB: 

US:
75mm Gun Motor Carriage M8 2.7->3.3 
This is amazing small light tank that could well be 3.3br and have scout if moved to tier 2. This would also give it ability to help people do rank 2 tasks.
Its Ex-TD like many others but same br stits M5A1 that has 37mm and lacks 50cal that M8 has.

M4A3 (105) 2.7->3.3
76mm sloped armor that brings to to around same level as Tiger I or KV-1 armor and has 130mm pen HEAT. Its like fighting a heavy tank even if you have same BR vehicle and there is no other tank that can tank that 105mm HEAT. Its also really mobile and 50cal can easily handle lighter enemy vehicles+Air targets.

M4A2 75mm 4.0->3.7
This tank doesnt deserve 4.0 br where it A.doesnt have any other tanks but M19 to make lineup and its far from its glory days where it faced much less high pen guns. 
Right now its just slightly slower M4 that lacks UFP weakspots.

T20 6.0->5.3
Why is this thing still 6.0? It doesnt have HVAP like M4A3 that sits at 5.7,it has worse armor then all Shermans because it lacks extra mantlet plate+UFP was nerfed from 76mm to 63mm so it doesnt even bounce 75/L48 anymore. Only thing it does better then M4A3 is slightly better speed and top speed.

T32 7.3->7.0 and T32E1 7.7->7.3
These things have no armor to handle HEAT or APDS,they depend on decent APHE that really lacks against targets like T-54/T-55 and Late IS series. 
IS-3 and IS-6 both sit at 7.0 right now so dont see any reason to keep these high BRs when they have worse armor profile and only somewhat better gun.

GER:
PzIV F2/G 3.3->3.7
These tanks lack armor,but have amazing 75mm gun that can deal any target +1BR range. If Chi-Nu II that has worse gun goes to 4.3 i see no reason for these to sit at 3.3 anymore. 

Jagdpanther 6.0->6.3 
88mm long barre gun at 6.0,panther mobility and better front armor then normal panther. What else do you need? This TD was totally fine at 6.3 with Ferdi because it wasnt a worse tank it was difference in playstyle. This is really hard tank to deal with when facing it even using 6.0 vehicle not even talking about 5.0s like T-34-85.

USSR:

T-34 41/42/STZ/E +0.3
All these deserve +0.3 to their BRs. Armor makes them really close to heavy tank when facing same BR or lower tanks and 76mm is not a bad gun even against well sloped and armored tanks because of soviet slope modifier. Also theyre really mobile medium tanks in all terrains compare to Chi-Nu or PzIVs.

KV-1E/B 4.0->4.3 
Better armor then Tiger I,more mobile and very few weak spots. These tanks have long been allowed to club low tier players and this really should stop. They didnt even get nerfed when shells got changed,but they got buff so now they can even deal with KV-1 Zis-5 that was their hard counter before.

KV-1 Zis-5 4.3->4.7
Good armor,good gun decent mobility for heavy tank. Similar to KV-85 that changes great armor to great gun at 4.7
In downtiers probably best assault tank because of small weakspots and good mobility.

SU-85M 5.0->4.7 
Lacks gun depression,doesnt really do anything better then T-34-57s that have turret and even with 75mm UFP can be killed easily because of Cupola that SU-85 lacks.

ISU-122S 5.7->5.3 
TD version of IS-2. Lacks turret,armor and doesnt have good enough mobility to work as assault gun. 
Shouldnt sit same BR as IS-2 that has same gun+turret.

UK:

SARC MkVI 6pdr 3.3->3.7
Same gun as Cromwell Mk1,better mobility and has 50cal that can easily work as SPAA.

France:
B1bis/B1ter 2.3->2.7
Great heavy tanks that 1.3 tanks cant deal well. Some cant kill them even when flanked. 
 

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1 hour ago, Stona said:

cover_facebook_answers_developers_07a5fc

 

We continue to monitor the Battle Ratings of vehicles and their competitive capabilities. In the next update of Battle Ratings, we will raise the BR bar to 11.3 for the extremely effective MiG-23MLD and F-4J Kai aircraft to avoid or reduce the possibility of encountering aircraft of the lower BRs. 

 

We also are considering a BR rise to 11.3 for certain combat helicopters, such as the Ka-52, Mi-28NM, and AH Mk.1 Apache to exclude them from BR 10.0 battles.
 

To open the Battle Rating changes list in a new tab, click here!

 

If you think we should make some additional changes or do not agree with listed changes, please support your suggestions with arguments!
We read all your feedback, so it can take some time to approve your post. Please be sure to stay on topic.

 

 

Thanks!

Good to see BR decompression. 
My suggestions are: 
1. Hunter F6 to 10.0. in RB-- Because it has no RWR, no countermeasures, no radar, plane itself is a subsonic, cant pull angle of attack, barely average acceleration(Harrier GR1 is soo much better when it comes to acceleration). SRAAMs are really not that overpowered. If anyone uses little bit of game sense, they will know they are supposed to outRUN the missile, not outTURN it and try to dodge it. Because they have full thrust vectoring, its not wise to even try to overlead them also like how you do against Magics. And even a glimpse of flares will be enough to make SRAAMs lose track. Almost every other plane in this BR matchmaking range has countermeasures.

2. Chinese A-5C to 10.3 in RB-- Because it has a very good turn radius, and it has really good energy retention and very good acceleration also. It is blatantly overpowered because it feels ever so slightly heavier than regular MiG-19(which doesn't change much), but it gets Matra Magics and at that BR not a lot of planes don't get countermeasures also. Strike aircraft spawn also adds a lot of advantage to it. 
3. Both Mirages going to 10.3 will become like another Mig-21MF going to 10.3, dealing with subsonics. Leave the Mirages at 10.7.

4. M-26 Pershing to 6.7 will just cause it to die. It is not fast, has an average gun, and an exorbitant repair cost already. Since T26E5 with same gun and a better armour is fine at 6.7, Let M-26 to stay at 6.3.

5. T-25 medium tank to 6.0. Since it has paper thin armour for that BR, not much mobility and since it got its stabilizer removed recently, Move it to 6.0. 

6. JA-37 viggen to 11.3. Top tier SARH missiles with pulse doppler radar and actual usable rocket pods for ground attack, while having RWR, countermeasures and excellent maneuvrability.

7. AH-64D to 10.7. Its basically an AH-64DJP if you want to carry stingers. OR allow it to have MAW even when you are carrying stingers(Basically because, with AH-64D, the MAW systems got integrated into the radar dome, and it need not carry AMASE pods IRL to have MAW)

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10 minutes ago, Stona said:

Added other planned changes:

 

Balance changes in the fire rate (shots per minute)

  • Ikv 103     6 → 7.5
  • SU-57B 12 → 14
  • ASU-85 7 → 8.4
  • Sturmpanzer II 4 → 4.5
  • Marder III 8,4 → 10
  • SU-5-1    12 → 14
  • Ho-Ro    3 → 4.5

 

New ammunition added

  • T-90A — 3BМ60
  • M1A2 — M829A2
  • Leopard 2PL — DM53
  • Leopard 2A5 — DM53

This is quite counterproductive. Everytime a better shell gets added to top tier tanks, the armour becomes less and less effective.

 

Give M1A2 TUSK add-on armour as a researchable modification. The K-5 and relict are overperforming right now. All the leopards except the 2A4 already have really good armour, both on turret and hull. If they recieve better shells its gonna create imbalance for sure. You will need to decompress ground forces BR also to prevent such imbalances.

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I feel like changing the BRs of the buccaneer S1 and S2 is gonna make them suffer more they already get destroyed by planes at the current br like yak 38s av8as and other vehicles with missiles and to increas them to 9.0 and 9.7 respectfully would mean that the S1 can face mig 21 sps k harrier gr1s and the s2 will not face alot of new vehicles bc of the low amount of vehicles at 10.7 but that would mean it will no longer face 8.3 vehicles in a down tier and the buccaneer only had its speed as its advantage and now thats its moving up in br it will probably lose that advantage aswell

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25 minutes ago, Stona said:

M1A2 — M829A2

 

ooooooooooo, my vacuum cleaner will love this addition! Very much good improvement from the previous version.

I'd love to see the A3 version, but then that risks it going to like 12.0 :burned:

 

fwY9Ce6.png

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Give AH64D and AH64A new stingers old stingers are useless . 

Give Ah1Z Aim9M . This missile won't fight planes but helies. IRCM makes unhistorical Aim9L useless. 

With higher battle rating of T26e5, T25 and and M26 than Panthers and M36 Give this tank the late M82 shot found on M46 , M46 , M48 this improvement on firepower adds reliability to these tanks.(also lower battle rating for M26 and T25 should be considered)

Bring down B57 down Plz it has no use anymore look at your statistics .slow compared to miss.  Almost zero self defense from enemy fire with low reward.

Bring down M60, T32e1/T32 down . High repair cost while having less advantages from other tanks.( t54(1949) and is4M or is3)

Tow 2A can be added to M3A3 Bradley.

This Ifv is used in toptier matches . While tow2 is enough to kill 9.3 tanks,Tow2A is needed to defeat Hightier ERA.

The T50 ammo can be added to T32 and T32E1 and M26E1, long reload on these tank should make up for more angle pen which they Don't have.

 

Edited by ACOMETS
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Hunter F.6 should be 10.0, it's missiles are very sensitive to flares and other aircraft and it's missiles can only actually track targets at less than 2.00km (oftentimes they only work at 1.6km), while every other jet at the same BR has more range and are either radar guided or much better IR tracking than the SRAAM. The Hunter is entirely dependent on occupied enemies and cannot even chase a lot of the enemies it chases which are either powered by afterburners or are supersonic. While the aircrafts at it's BR have countermeasures to missiles, the Hunter F.6 has no countermeasures at all and it's only hope is to somehow dodge missiles that can track it anytime. In addition, it's repair cost is too much for an aircraft that barely even survives at it's own BR, much less in an uptier. Even with the new BR ceiling of 11.3, the Hunter F.6 is still outmatched by it's contemporaries.

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EBR (1954) stays at 6.0.

 

Why?

Mobility is average, slow to start gaining momentum and bogs down in rougher terrain, limiting its mobility, perhaps it would be wise to fix its mobility now.

The gun is ok, POT-51A is decent for what it faces right now, giving it POT-51P maybe a wise decision now given it has been facing harder opponents for a while now.

 

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If the Strv 9040B goes to 9.0 at least give it its realistic kulsgr m/95 grenade, hm..?

 

And with the Mirages at now 10.3, maybe it is time you added the F-1E, instead of more US and USSR powercreep planes..

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Yak-38M should definitely be dropped to 9.3 from 9.7 in air RB. It has horrible turn time, no flares and it is subsonic. 

The premium Yak-38 at 9.3 is about 600kg lighter with the same thrust to weight ratio. The Yak-38 actually turns faster due to being lighter.

The other difference between the two is that the M version gets to carry gun pods with R-60s, Yak-38 can either get gun pods or R-60s. 

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Okay so I'll keep this simple.

 

The swedish tech tree has quite a few gaps that can affect gameplay and I hope that my proposals can help close those gaps.

 

Strv 74 to 6.0/6.3 with a reload rate speed decrease to ~6 seconds. (It's a 75mm gun after all)

It is a very strong tank at 5.7 that can hold its ground to higher battle ratings with the only thing holding it back being the poor optics and reload rate.

 

Saab-105(Both variants) to 8.7-9.0-9.3 along with RB-24J

Due to the current meta in that battle rating bracket, this aircraft gets absolutely stomped. It is comparable to the sea vixen having no ability to carry guns (tech tree variant) along with the missiles or with any bombs larger than 250 pounds and a single rocket preset. It has the ability to turnfight when only having missiles because anything heavier makes it a literal brick. The Rb-24J would be balanced because it would give you two chances for kills and with the plane being almost constantly uptiered they can be defeated by aircraft with flares.

 

A32A to 9.0

There's literally no point of it being 9.3 apart from ruining the swedish 9.0 lineup. It has x3 600kg bombs as its maximum load combined with two chaff pods (not flare pods) with 16 chaff each. It also has x4 20mm guns that are absolutely useless against ground targets due to them having incorrect ammo and it is a subsonic attacker that can't even get close to mach 1 even with the afterburner that barely produces thrust.

Edited by UwU_Minna
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2 hours ago, Stona said:

Balance changes in the fire rate (shots per minute)

what is historical source? if none then they should not happen

Stona (Posted )

RoF is balance factor.
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31 minutes ago, Stona said:

New ammunition added

  • T-90A — 3BМ60
  • M1A2 — M829A2
  • Leopard 2PL — DM53
  • Leopard 2A5 — DM53

 

A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one!

 

Now M1A2 will be a proper 11.0 and have an actual advantage over M1A1HC, the Leopard 2s are getting their historical shells and I will have yet another reason to spawn T-90A over T-80U as a backup.

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