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My take on the future of the British jet tree


Flame2512
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So for a bit of fun I had a go at laying out where I would put the remaining aircraft for the British jet tree (up to the present day), here is what I've come up with: https://wiki.warthunder.com/User:U13682523/My_British_Jet_Tree

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This is mainly focused on the future of top tier (i.e. where to put Tornados, Harrier IIs etc.) but I have also padded out rank 5 & 6 with aircraft I feel are missing. I have tried to keep it faithful to the current layout of the British tree (if I had my way we would have a couple more lines). There are also some vehicles I'm unsure what to do with, I welcome any suggestions you have:

 

  • Phantom F.3 (F-4J(UK)) - Would be nice to have, but kind of worse than the other Phantoms. Could either be foddered with the FGR.2, put after the lightning F.6, or made a squadron / event vehicle.
  • Gnat F.1 - Just dumped in there after the Swifts at the moment, not really sue on the best place for it. Also Sweden may claim it as it was technically a Finnish aircraft and that is where all the Finnish vehicles end up.
  • Hawk T.2 / Hawk 200 - Not sure what weapons the T.2 has. I guess the Hawk 200 could go in a folder with the other Hawk(s)

 

I think I've done a reasonably good job at distributing future aircraft across the different lines, can anyone see anything I've missed or think of a better layout (I'm also ignoring the possibility of rank 8 as I can't be bothered to work it out, so everything tops out at rank 7)?

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2 hours ago, Flame2512 said:

So for a bit of fun I had a go at laying out where I would put the remaining aircraft for the British jet tree (up to the present day), here is what I've come up with: https://wiki.warthunder.com/User:U13682523/My_British_Jet_Tree

Hide contents

 

This is mainly focused on the future of top tier (i.e. where to put Tornados, Harrier IIs etc.) but I have also padded out rank 5 & 6 with aircraft I feel are missing. I have tried to keep it faithful to the current layout of the British tree (if I had my way we would have a couple more lines). There are also some vehicles I'm unsure what to do with, I welcome any suggestions you have:

 

  • Phantom F.3 (F-4J(UK)) - Would be nice to have, but kind of worse than the other Phantoms. Could either be foddered with the FGR.2, put after the lightning F.6, or made a squadron / event vehicle.
  • Gnat F.1 - Just dumped in there after the Swifts at the moment, not really sue on the best place for it. Also Sweden may claim it as it was technically a Finnish aircraft and that is where all the Finnish vehicles end up.
  • Hawk T.2 / Hawk 200 - Not sure what weapons the T.2 has. I guess the Hawk 200 could go in a folder with the other Hawk(s)

 

I think I've done a reasonably good job at distributing future aircraft across the different lines, can anyone see anything I've missed or think of a better layout (I'm also ignoring the possibility of rank 8 as I can't be bothered to work it out, so everything tops out at rank 7)?

I like the tree overall and it does seem like the future British tech tree would be similar to this; also I really like the implementation of the Kuwaiti Lighting F.53 as a squadron vehicle (seems like something people would want to go for) and naval patrol aircraft seeing as they'll be a very important and necassary addition for naval (once we get into the cold war period proper). Despite that I do take a few issues with this tree namely the implementation of the Tornado  GR.1/GR.4 and the additions to the bomber tree. 

 

Firstly it makes absolutely no sense to put the strike Tornados under the Phantom, the GR.1 and GR.4 are tactical bombers/interdictors theres no reason for them to be in what is (with 2 exceptions) a fighter line. If it were up to me they would be placed after the Buccaneer S.2B (the aircraft that is overall most similar in capabilities to the Tornado).

 

My other problem is with some the additions made for the bomber line so I'll just go through them in order (I'm probably going to get a bit of flak for what I'm about to say, but please keep in mind I'm just being realistic about this).

Starting of the V bombers probably aren't that realisitc of an addition mainly because strategic bombers (Victor, B-52 and Tu-95 for example) would not be that useful at high tier air rb or ground rb and more often then not would likely just be shot down by various interceptors and SAM's, I know a lot of people would love to see these kind of aircraft (I myself like the Victor and M-4 a lot) but outside of being added as AI targets theres not much use for them unless we see fundemental changes done to the game.

 

Next is the TSR-2, while there is no issue with the plane itself due to it's history (being a prototype vehicle) it wouldn't make much sense for it to be in the main tech tree , it's far more likely for TSR.2 to end up in the premium section as an event vehicle (which while very bad is unfortunaley what will most likely happen). Despite that TSR.2 could also possibly be an option for a rank 7 squadron vehicle and would be a good one at that due to it being a prototype design which a few of them already are (besides it wouldn't be the first time we've had a powerful attack aircraft in this category so why not another?).

 

Finally is the Nimrod MRA.4, I don't think I need to say this but it's not that great of an aircraft (it failed hard), more importantly however is that theres already a much better aircraft that has replaced the Nimrod, the P8 Poseidon, which should be the one added not the Nimrod MRA.4.

 

So if it were up to me though these are the changes I'd make:

  • Remove the V bombers (unless air modes are changed to make them and other high tier strategic bombers practical)
  • Replace the Nimrod MRA.4 with the P8 Poseidon (as the Poseidon MRA.1)
  • Move TSR.2 to the premium tree and make it either an event or squadron vehicle
  • Move the Tornado GR.1 and GR.4 to the bomber line after the Buccaneer S.2B 

Outside of that I really like this tree and I'd love to see almost all the aircraft here implemented the way they are here! 

Edited by KekDermott@live
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1 hour ago, KekDermott@live said:

Firstly it makes absolutely no sense to put the strike Tornados under the Phantom, the GR.1 and GR.4 are tactical bombers/interdictors theres no reason for them to be in what is (with 2 exceptions) a fighter line. If it were up to me they would be placed after the Buccaneer S.2B (the aircraft that is overall most similar in capabilities to the Tornado).

 

My logic was that the Phantom FGR.2 started it's life mainly as a low level ground attack aircraft for use in Germany, only later did it transition primarily into an air to air role, so at the start it served a very similar role to the Tornado. The Hawker line as a whole is also generally quite ground attack focused so it felt like it worked there.

 

1 hour ago, KekDermott@live said:

My other problem is with some the additions made for the bomber line so I'll just go through them in order (I'm probably going to get a bit of flak for what I'm about to say, but please keep in mind I'm just being realistic about this).

Starting of the V bombers probably aren't that realisitc of an addition mainly because strategic bombers (Victor, B-52 and Tu-95 for example) would not be that useful at high tier air rb or ground rb and more often then not would likely just be shot down by various interceptors and SAM's, I know a lot of people would love to see these kind of aircraft (I myself like the Victor and M-4 a lot) but outside of being added as AI targets theres not much use for them unless we see fundemental changes done to the game.

 

Next is the TSR-2, while there is no issue with the plane itself due to it's history (being a prototype vehicle) it wouldn't make much sense for it to be in the main tech tree , it's far more likely for TSR.2 to end up in the premium section as an event vehicle (which while very bad is unfortunaley what will most likely happen). Despite that TSR.2 could also possibly be an option for a rank 7 squadron vehicle and would be a good one at that due to it being a prototype design which a few of them already are (besides it wouldn't be the first time we've had a powerful attack aircraft in this category so why not another?).

 

Finally is the Nimrod MRA.4, I don't think I need to say this but it's not that great of an aircraft (it failed hard), more importantly however is that theres already a much better aircraft that has replaced the Nimrod, the P8 Poseidon, which should be the one added not the Nimrod MRA.4.

 

V-bombers were admittedly added out of my personal love for the Vulcan. I can see the Valiant working as a follow on from the Canberra. Meanwhile the Vulcan and Victor at least got Shrike and / or Martel missiles trialed on them so gave them a reason to be in the game more so than most heavy bombers. I did expect them to be a little controversial though.

 

TSR-2 I wasn't sure what to do with. Squadron vehicle would work, but based on the number of Soviet tech tree tanks starting with "Object" I think we have a good precedent for prototypes in the main tree.

 

The reason I went with the Nimrod MRA.4 is because I feel it to be a far better fit for the game than the P-8. The P-8 is a fine submarine / ship hunter, but that is pretty much all it does (and it is kind of defenceless against fighters). By comparison the Nimrod MRA.4 gets a lot more flexibility. It could get AIM-9L and ASRAAM for self defence, and it could get a wide range of ground attack ordnance (Maverick, ALARM, Paveway IV, etc.). It also could have various cruise missiles, and of course anti-submarine / anti-shipping weapons.

Edited by Flame2512
"Almost" to "mainly"
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4 hours ago, Flame2512 said:

So for a bit of fun I had a go at laying out where I would put the remaining aircraft for the British jet tree (up to the present day), here is what I've come up

It looks nice although:

Strike Tornados should be somewhere in the jaguar harrier line, while fighter tornados could go after the phantom.

Nimrod is fair game because of aim9L and its other weapon capability

But you got to admit, that line looks completely weird progression wise so needs to be evaluated further or maybe some extra spilt

This might be a bad example but I remember playing ace combat infinity on ps3 and its progression lines where a bit more flexible then war thunder,

I dont mean the content but the directions, Dont think war thunder should be only limited to going down and folders maybe in rare cases,

have side grades that cant be sensibly folderd due to aircraft difference. actually being on the side

Some further evaluation will be needed in cases like those but it would be a good unique way to deal with elephants in the room

Other than that, it looks fine to me

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10 hours ago, Flame2512 said:

So for a bit of fun I had a go at laying out where I would put the remaining aircraft for the British jet tree (up to the present day), here is what I've come up with: https://wiki.warthunder.com/User:U13682523/My_British_Jet_Tree

Hide contents

 

This is mainly focused on the future of top tier (i.e. where to put Tornados, Harrier IIs etc.) but I have also padded out rank 5 & 6 with aircraft I feel are missing. I have tried to keep it faithful to the current layout of the British tree (if I had my way we would have a couple more lines). There are also some vehicles I'm unsure what to do with, I welcome any suggestions you have:

 

  • Phantom F.3 (F-4J(UK)) - Would be nice to have, but kind of worse than the other Phantoms. Could either be foddered with the FGR.2, put after the lightning F.6, or made a squadron / event vehicle.
  • Gnat F.1 - Just dumped in there after the Swifts at the moment, not really sue on the best place for it. Also Sweden may claim it as it was technically a Finnish aircraft and that is where all the Finnish vehicles end up.
  • Hawk T.2 / Hawk 200 - Not sure what weapons the T.2 has. I guess the Hawk 200 could go in a folder with the other Hawk(s)

 

I think I've done a reasonably good job at distributing future aircraft across the different lines, can anyone see anything I've missed or think of a better layout (I'm also ignoring the possibility of rank 8 as I can't be bothered to work it out, so everything tops out at rank 7)?

I like it (nice to see the strike master in a tree proposal) the hawks are honestly  a bit fiddly the difference  in armament  between  T.2 and 200 is pretty extensive it might be better too have ZJ 100 and 200 in the same line as they have closer capabilities. On the Gnat topic well there's 2 more options, the F.1 Demonstrator that was in RAF colours or the Yugo F.1. 

Edited by TerikG2014

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6 hours ago, Mr_Pokemon26295 said:

It looks nice although:

Strike Tornados should be somewhere in the jaguar harrier line, while fighter tornados could go after the phantom.

 

Issue is if you put the Tornados with the Jaguars and Harriers you get quite a crammed line.

 

My logic was that the Phantom FGR.2 was originally intended for use as a low level ground attack and reconnaissance aircraft, hence it reviewed stuff like the inertial navigation system, strike camera and reconnaissance pod; it was only later in its life that the FGR.2 was transitioned into an air-to-air role.

 

The Tornado GR.1/4 are fairly similar in role to the early FGR.2, and the whole hawker line is quite strike fighter focused so it felt like they fit there.

 

I put the Tornado F.3 after the Lightning as the Javelin, Lightning, and Tornado F.3 are all dedicated interceptors.

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Probably the best distribution we can hope for, otherwise the attacker line would be huge.

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@Flame2512 have you considered adding the ATLAS Cheetah C and E models to the tree? we already have a South African vehicles in the ground tree so it's likely we'll see them in the air tree too.

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Was going to say we will probably see the Atlas Cheetah on the british tree. As we now know that SA helicopters will end up on the brit tree aswell. There is also the Indian Sepecat Jaguar which has a AESA radar and even better engines. Its based on the jaguar international which in its self is a export brit jaguar. Also the possibility of the HAL Tejas considering India is part of the commonwealth.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Wondering if Gaijin would stick the ADEN 25mm on the Harrier GR.5 or GR.7, project failed but doesn't mean it has to fail on WT.

 

Also GR.7A would be a better choice it had the more powerful Pegasus engine 23,800 lbf / 106 kN (Mk.107)

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19 minutes ago, Gunjob said:

Wondering if Gaijin would stick the ADEN 25mm on the Harrier GR.5 or GR.7, project failed but doesn't mean it has to fail on WT.

 

Hopefully they will

 

19 minutes ago, Gunjob said:

Also GR.7A would be a better choice it had the more powerful Pegasus engine  23,800 lbf / 106 kN  (Mk.107)

 

I figured the base GR.7 would be better in terms of making the GR.9A desirable. Otherwise there wouldn't be much difference between them.

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30 minutes ago, Gunjob said:

Wondering if Gaijin would stick the ADEN 25mm on the Harrier GR.5 or GR.7, project failed but doesn't mean it has to fail on WT.

 

Also GR.7A would be a better choice it had the more powerful Pegasus engine 23,800 lbf / 106 kN (Mk.107)

Personally I don't think the GR.5 should be added as it doesn't really offer anything new. GR.7 onward have the fun toys.

 

10 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

 

Hopefully they will

 

 

I figured the base GR.7 would be better in terms of making the GR.9A desirable. Otherwise there wouldn't be much difference between them.

Apart from ordnance like Brimstone. A only really adds the improved engine.

Brimstone - Think Defence

Edited by Shrike142
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5 minutes ago, Shrike142 said:

Personally I don't think the GR.5 should be added as it doesn't really offer anything new. GR.7 onward have the fun toys.

 

Apart from ordnance like Brimstone. A only really adds the improved engine.

Brimstone - Think Defence

 

That is what I was getting at. Going GR.7A -> GR.9A doesn't get you much other Brimstone (is there anything else?). At least going GR.7 -> GR.9A gives you an improved engine to make it more worthwhile.

Edited by Flame2512
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19 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

 

That is what I was getting at. Going GR.7A -> GR.9A doesn't get you much other Brimstone (is there anything else?). At least going GR.7 -> GR.9A gives you an improved engine to make it more worthwhile.

It's a full avionics and weapons upgrade over GR.7, I'd say that's already worth it.

ASRAAM was also being cleared on it but I'm not 100% if it was just GR.9

FA2 Sea Harrier - Naval Technology

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30 minutes ago, Shrike142 said:

It's a full avionics and weapons upgrade over GR.7, I'd say that's already worth it.

 

Avionics aren't really modelled enough in War Thunder for that to be of benefit. What new weapons does the GR.9 get? All i can think of is Brimstone, Paveway IV, and the Sniper pod instead of TIALD.

 

33 minutes ago, Shrike142 said:

ASRAAM was also being cleared on it but I'm not 100% if it was just GR.9

FA2 Sea Harrier - Naval Technology

 

Working out the deal with ASRAAM and Harrier is a nice rabbit hole to go down if you want to kill several hours. As far as I can tell ASRAAM was planned for the Harrier GR.7, then pushed back to the GR.9, then the idea was scrapped all together.

 

The picture you have and the one below are the only two pictures I have ever seen of ASRAAM on a Harrier, at most it would seem the ASRAAM was tested in some way but I've not seen any evidence it got further than that.

LoqETOF.png

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6 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

 

Avionics aren't really modelled enough in War Thunder for that to be of benefit. What new weapons does the GR.9 get? All i can think of is Brimstone, Paveway IV, and the Sniper pod instead of TIALD.

 

 

Working out the deal with ASRAAM and Harrier is a nice rabbit hole to go down if you want to kill several hours. As far as I can tell ASRAAM was planned for the Harrier GR.7, then pushed back to the GR.9, then the idea was scrapped all together.

 

The picture you have and the one below are the only two pictures I have ever seen of ASRAAM on a Harrier, at most it would seem the ASRAAM was tested in some way but I've not seen any evidence it got further than that.

LoqETOF.png

Still means it can get it with gaijin's rules. Also seeing as the lower picture shows Brimstones that confirms it's on a GR.9.

Brimstone and ASRAAM would be more than enough for a separate vehicle

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6 minutes ago, Shrike142 said:

Still means it can get it with gaijin's rules. Also seeing as the lower picture shows Brimstones that confirms it's on a GR.9.

Brimstone and ASRAAM would be more than enough for a separate vehicle

 

That's valid, the other reason I went GR.7 at the start is the image you posted was originally captioned as a GR.7, but having done more reading it was probably a GR.9.

 

On an unrelated note: the max flare load on the Harrier GR.7 and GR.9 is somewhere in the region of 640 - 700. If it's a short game (~10 mins) you could start period countermeasure release when you take off and leave it on for an entire battle.

Edited by Flame2512
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26 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

 

That's valid, the other reason I went GR.7 at the start is the image you posted was originally captioned as a GR.7, but having done more reading it was probably a GR.9.

 

On an unrelated note: the max flare load on the Harrier GR.7 and GR.9 is somewhere in the region of 640 - 700. If it's a short game (~10 mins) you could start period countermeasure release when you take off and leave it on for an entire battle.

Only if you're going up against gen 1 IRs. French Jag and AV-8A can already do this but when we get better missiles you will need to dump a lot more flares. They'll probably be useless against things like ASRAAM, I can't wait (especially if we ever get the new seeker version in-game).

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1 hour ago, Flame2512 said:

Harrier GR.7 and GR.9 is somewhere in the region of 640 - 700

Holy... I didn't realise they had so many. is that including the chaff from the BOL rails?

Edited by Gunjob
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18 minutes ago, Gunjob said:

Holy... I didn't realise they had so many. is that including the chaff from the BOL rails?

 

Yeah they have four BOL rails giving 640, then possibly 60 more if they keep the AN/ALE-40s. BOL was not just chaff it could also carry IR countermeasures. 

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The truth is Harrier GR.5A add before Harrier GR.7 but come by later Jaguar GR.3A.

1154012-large.jpg

Edited by oom1992

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5 hours ago, oom1992 said:

Jaguar GR.3A.

I'm not sure we really need the GR.3A given we have the GR.1B. Since its just avionics upgrades which aren't anything noticeable in game.  

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