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20mm Mg 151 status


Ghostmaxi
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What is currently going, will even happen anything in the future?

Some things are just wrong:

The Ap performence of the Mg 151 is different from Ap-I to Aphe while the rounds are 100% the same with the only difference beeing that the I uses phosphorus and a Bodenschraube (bottum screw) and the He uses Pent and a Bodenzünder (bottum fuze)

The actual penetrator the steel is the same with all 3 types Ap, Ap-I and Aphe (i let the tracer versions outside they arent even in game)

Then the performance itself to be exact over range it heavily looses penetration at 500m while the lighter 20mm shvak round for example is even beyond that much stronger.

Comparing the Mg 151 and Mg FF the Mg FF uses the same round but at a much slower V0 but somehow is over range even stronger than the Mg 151.

These were also allready some time ago reported and submitted by me and @Killakiwi

Then the belts. There are some documents giving example/recommendet belts/used ammo type such as mainly Ap-I and Aphe against planes with heavy armor such as IL series planes. But even some time ago all 3 20mm gun types Mg 151, Mg FF and Mg FF/M had the same round types, that the Mg FF doesnt have Minengeschosse was fixed but now all 3 have differently build belts of which none are even close to documents (with the exception to defencive armarment belts). 

And they are all quite similar and with about 2 for each gun useless. The Mg FF has a I-T I-T Aphe belt as standart where they just replaced the Minengeschoss with another I-T grenade. Overall like all belts are FULL of Minengeschosse, you can just choose how rare other rounds should be and wether or not you want a tracer in it or not. Not to mention the horrible useless Ground targets belt which with luck gets through some AA vehilces and trucks.

Will there even someday come a change?

Also it seems that they use ammo of different time lines looking at the 705m/s ap rounds which were later only loaded to 720m/s.(i will do a report about that)

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20 hours ago, Ghostmaxi said:

Then the belts. There are some documents giving example/recommendet belts/used ammo type such as mainly Ap-I and Aphe against planes with heavy armor such as IL series planes. But even some time ago all 3 20mm gun types Mg 151, Mg FF and Mg FF/M had the same round types, that the Mg FF doesnt have Minengeschosse was fixed but now all 3 have differently build belts of which none are even close to documents (with the exception to defencive armarment belts). 

And they are all quite similar and with about 2 for each gun useless. The Mg FF has a I-T I-T Aphe belt as standart where they just replaced the Minengeschoss with another I-T grenade. Overall like all belts are FULL of Minengeschosse, you can just choose how rare other rounds should be and wether or not you want a tracer in it or not. Not to mention the horrible useless Ground targets belt which with luck gets through some AA vehilces and trucks.

Will there even someday come a change?

Also it seems that they use ammo of different time lines looking at the 705m/s ap rounds which were later only loaded to 720m/s.(i will do a report about that)

 

If Gaijin will change air-target belts for German Mg-151/20 to represent "recommendet" belt setup, it will be nothing but nerf in AirRB. 

The share of API, APHE and IT rounds will increase and these are semi-useless rounds vs planes except for pilot snipe or an engine or fuel tank hit. 

 

Of course, I support the efforts to make API / APHE / IT less useless in the game, but the most optimal solution would be the option to set custom belts with custom share and order of given rounds in the ammo belt. 

It could be a researchable upgrade and the cost of such a belt could be higher, but we should get it. Because yes, there were recommendations, but in the end it was the pilot with the armorer / mechanic who agreed or not and set own belt informally.

 

 

Edited by Ein79
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20 hours ago, Ghostmaxi said:

 

Also it seems that they use ammo of different time lines looking at the 705m/s ap rounds which were later only loaded to 720m/s.(i will do a report about that)

 

 

You are absolutely right the electric- primed shells had generally around 15m/s higher velocity, in game overwhelming majority of MG151/20 we see are electric-primed, yet all/most (can't remember) have the muzzle velocities of percussion-primed shells. 

Edited by Loofah
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3 hours ago, Loofah said:

 

 

You are absolutely right the electric- primed shells had generally around 15m/s higher velocity, in game overwhelming majority of MG151/20 we see are electric-primed, yet all/most (can't remember) have the muzzle velocities of percussion-primed shells. 

That is not 100% correct, shure all the electric primed are faster, but that is not the reason, just (a bit earlier or at the same time) the ammo was only produced with nitropenta in the charge, for electric and non electric.

Edited by Ghostmaxi
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2 hours ago, Ghostmaxi said:

That is not 100% correct, shure all the electric primed are faster, but that is not the reason, just (a bit earlier or at the same time) the ammo was only produced with nitropenta in the charge, for electric and non electric.

 

Where am I not correct, funny dude?

First you say I'm 100% not correct, then you write that electric primed are faster, which is a fact, so you contradict yourself. Sober up.

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1 hour ago, Loofah said:

 

Where am I not correct, funny dude?

First you say I'm 100% not correct, then you write that electric primed are faster, which is a fact, so you contradict yourself. Sober up.

I am sorry, poor choice of words, what i wanted to say is just that all Ap rounds got nitropenta in the charge for 720m/s what primer it has isnt important, both versions were porduced for 720m/s.

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14 minutes ago, Ghostmaxi said:

I am sorry, poor choice of words, what i wanted to say is just that all Ap rounds got nitropenta in the charge for 720m/s what primer it has isnt important, both versions were porduced for 720m/s.

 

Fine, I can't find any evidence for 720m/s percussion primers. But yes, it may be possible that both got the same charge and that percussion primers were just as good, anyway, the velocity for MG151/20 AP is not correct at the moment. Also if you look at this document, the velocity was lower for every type of shell tested with non-electric primer, so at least they were consistent here :P

https://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/handbuchderflugzeugbordwaffenmunition19361945.pdf
 

Edited by Loofah
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That is the same source that i am useing, while the data isnt written clearly, there is a Note under it stating at the first page (which is not designated El.) That with the change to the V Series the wheight of the round was increased from 115g to 117g, the next page (designated with the El.) has in the note under it the next change to the v Series with the increase from 705M/s to 720M/s that is the overall change for both guns to the V series.

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On 12/10/2021 at 12:19, Ghostmaxi said:

The Mg FF has a I-T I-T Aphe belt as standart where they just replaced the Minengeschoss with another I-T grenade.

The MG FF shouldn't even have IT rounds.The MG FF was quickly replaced by the MG FF/M and IT round only appeared in mid 1943.

 

In-game the MG FF fires the same 0.12kg (0.117kg rounded up) ammunition as the MG FF/M and MG 151/20 when the MG FF actually fired shell of ~134g weight.

I think I mentioned it before in some topic but the MG FF pretty much only fired F-T and practice shells, with the practice shell being an inert F-T.

 

 

20mm APHE performance against 0° could be explained by the the fuze triggering the shell before it has the chance to penetrate more than 17-18mm. The performance at 30° and beyond is pretty much the same for all AP types.

 

20mm APHE was also not necessarily meant against tanks since the ammunition manual reads "armored ground targets", while the API specifically mentions use against light tanks.

 

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_G/BLATT_07.HTM

Quote

vorwiegend gegen
gepanzerte oder
eisengeschütze
Bodenziele

armored, or iron protected ground targets. Which might be AA and artilery guns

vs.

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_G/BLATT_08.HTM

Quote

b) gegen Erdziele hauptsächlich bei Bekämpfung von leichten Pz.Kpf. Wg., Eisenbahnzügen und dgl.

against ground targets, mainly light tanks, railroad trains etc.So anything carrying fuel that might be ignited.

 

 

The production of the APHE shell was also discontinued after 1943 in favour of the API shell.

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51 minutes ago, KillaKiwi said:

The MG FF shouldn't even have IT rounds.The MG FF was quickly replaced by the MG FF/M and IT round only appeared in mid 1943.

 

In-game the MG FF fires the same 0.12kg (0.117kg rounded up) ammunition as the MG FF/M and MG 151/20 when the MG FF actually fired shell of ~134g weight.

I think I mentioned it before in some topic but the MG FF pretty much only fired F-T and practice shells, with the practice shell being an inert F-T.

 

 

20mm APHE performance against 0° could be explained by the the fuze triggering the shell before it has the chance to penetrate more than 17-18mm. The performance at 30° and beyond is pretty much the same for all AP types.

 

20mm APHE was also not necessarily meant against tanks since the ammunition manual reads "armored ground targets", while the API specifically mentions use against light tanks.

 

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_G/BLATT_07.HTM

armored, or iron protected ground targets. Which might be AA and artilery guns

vs.

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_G/BLATT_08.HTM

against ground targets, mainly light tanks, railroad trains etc.So anything carrying fuel that might be ignited.

 

 

The production of the APHE shell was also discontinued after 1943 in favour of the API shell.

The Aphe is against ships also, that was written in a document, i unfortunately do not have anymore.

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14 hours ago, KillaKiwi said:

The MG FF shouldn't even have IT rounds.The MG FF was quickly replaced by the MG FF/M and IT round only appeared in mid 1943.

 

In-game the MG FF fires the same 0.12kg (0.117kg rounded up) ammunition as the MG FF/M and MG 151/20 when the MG FF actually fired shell of ~134g weight.

I think I mentioned it before in some topic but the MG FF pretty much only fired F-T and practice shells, with the practice shell being an inert F-T.

 

 

20mm APHE performance against 0° could be explained by the the fuze triggering the shell before it has the chance to penetrate more than 17-18mm. The performance at 30° and beyond is pretty much the same for all AP types.

 

20mm APHE was also not necessarily meant against tanks since the ammunition manual reads "armored ground targets", while the API specifically mentions use against light tanks.

 

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_G/BLATT_07.HTM

armored, or iron protected ground targets. Which might be AA and artilery guns

vs.

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luft/Luft/LDV_4000/TEIL_10/SERIE_G/BLATT_08.HTM

against ground targets, mainly light tanks, railroad trains etc.So anything carrying fuel that might be ignited.

 

 

The production of the APHE shell was also discontinued after 1943 in favour of the API shell.

 

It would be nice if incendiary actually did what it should - created a fireball inside the target. Right now there's no difference between API and AP, while I'm kinda sure a tank crew would be able to feel the difference. 

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On 13/10/2021 at 12:54, KillaKiwi said:

The MG FF shouldn't even have IT rounds.The MG FF was quickly replaced by the MG FF/M and IT round only appeared in mid 1943.

 

In-game the MG FF fires the same 0.12kg (0.117kg rounded up) ammunition as the MG FF/M and MG 151/20 when the MG FF actually fired shell of ~134g weight.

I think I mentioned it before in some topic but the MG FF pretty much only fired F-T and practice shells, with the practice shell being an inert F-T.

Hmmm, do you know what the drum loading for the German ground MG FF variants would be. Would they be usable for the Aircraft MG FF ?  The Oerlikon's are such a wide family of weapons used by everyone to some degree. Which makes it a bit confusing, I wonder how much commonality their was in ammo types etc.

 

From Navweaps.

"The German Army purchased an unknown quantity of guns directly from Oerlikon and designated them as Flak 28 and Flak 29. These were passed on to the Kriegsmarine in 1939."

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_2cm-70_mk234.php

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_FF

 

Images of them them in German use, and various US Versions which changed over time. The earlier ones seem similar.

Spoiler

Color_worldwartwo.filminspector.com_78.j

1045397d1486460993-kriegsmarine-binocula

784px-Marines_aboard_USS_Enterprise_(CV-

800px-USS_Iowa_(BB-61)_Oerlikon_20mm_AA_

Arms-F1-MA-16.jpg?itok=bzfZ8QFH

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12 hours ago, SturmWerwolf said:

Hmmm, do you know what the drum loading for the German ground MG FF variants would be.

In which cases was the MG FF used from the ground?

 

My guess is that the Oerlikon based 20mm rounds are all interchangable as long as the shell weight doesn't interfere with the recoil mechanism.

Of course they can't fire 20mm Mineshells since only the MG FF/M was set up to work with them.

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