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The F-8E Crusader, issues with the "Last Gunfighter" that once again aren't the flight model


KekDermott@live
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Intro:
Hello fellow forum users, with the release of War Thunder's newest update "Direct hit" more versions of the F-8 Crusader have been added to the game specifically the F-8E and the F-8E(FN); personally I've been having a lot of fun with the F-8E and am glad to see it in game (even if I'm a bit salty they didn't add one of the better versions) and thankfully for the most part it is modelled correctly especially since they added the AIM-9C and AN/ALE-29 countermeasure dispenser. Of course though I wouldn't be here making this topic unless there were problems and this time around there are quite a lot to get through but before let’s go through the Crusaders evolution to better understand each variant and the differences between each.


Evolution:

6544707_F8UVariantsrgb.thumb.jpg.a07dff4

"A table showing the evolution of the US navy models Crusaders and their rebuilds"
Over the course of it’s 50 year service the Crusader evolved through many different variants each often bringing their own unique additions that improved upon the design (some more so then others), so in this topic we’ll be looking at all fighter versions of the F-8 used by the US Navy and the Marine Nationale, how to identify them and what sets them apart from each other. This is to educate people who are new to the aircraft and might not know much about it  and want to learn more about it; additionally for readers of  my previous topic “The F8U-2 Crusader issues with the “last gunfighter” that aren’t the flight model” this can be seen as a more up to date/re written and comprehensive version of that topic’s evolution section so if anything I say in this topic contradicts something I previously said then that means that info was incorrect and that what I have said here is correct, now without further ado lets get right into this.


F8U-1/F-8A :

F-8_Crusader_on_Hornet_2.thumb.jpg.30cd7

"F-8A, on display at the USS Hornet museum"
Firstly we have the version that started it all, the F-8A, compared to later versions the A model is very basic. Equipped with the Aero 10-L armament control system which contained the Mk.16 fire control system and AN/APG-56 radar gun sight contained within a metal two piece nose section, the F-8A had no all weather capabilities and was used only as a day fighter, early production A models would be powered by the J57-P-12 but this was quickly replaced by the more powerful P-4, other additions during the production run would include the aerial refueling probe (contained in a blister on the forward left side of the fuselage) and fuselage pylons to allow carriage of the AIM-9 Sidewinder missile and Zuni rockets both of which would become staples of the entire series. One feature that was standard on the F-8A was the internal rocket tray that contained 32 mighty mouse rockets (2 per tube) the tray was seldom used however due to it’s tendency to catch fire, the reason being the rockets getting jammed in the tube and catching fire by way of the one behind hitting it, in other cases the jammed rocket could prevent the tray from retracting or could even block the nose gear from deploying all this led to the tray being sealed shut. In total 318 F-8As were built of a total planned 448, this leads us onto the next model were those remaining 130 aircraft became...  


F8U-1E/F-8B/F-8L:

Screenshot_20210320-155322_Kindle.thumb.

"F-8B of VMF-312"
 Next we have the F-8B, originally part of the F-8A order the last 130 would instead be produced as the B model which saw the addition of the AN/AWG-3 armament control system which retained the Mk.16 but replaced the APG-56 with the Magnavox AN/APS-67 search radar giving limited all weather capabilities. The addition of a search radar required a redesign of the two piece nose section with it being replaced by a larger plastic single piece radome that contained the radars antenna; along with this the cockpit was also redesigned, seeing the addition of radar scope on the centre console and radar controls added to left console to complement the radar itself. Outside of these changes the F-8B is the same aircraft as the A model. In 1968 61 F-8Bs would be remanufactured as F-8Ls, upgrades included a strengthened airframe, tailhook and landing gear along with a new stronger 4000 hour wing to extend flight hours and an approach power compensator to make carrier landings easier; additionally provisions were made to add the strakes and wing pylons to the aircraft but neither of these were added which resulted in the mounting holes for the strakes being covered by small plates (which is how you identify an F-8L) besides this there were no changes made to the F-8L.        


F8U-2/F-8C/F-8K :

Screenshot_20210320-163748_Kindle.thumb.

"F-8C of VF-24"
Next we have the F-8C (or as it’s known in game, the F8U-2) and it’s with this model we start to see the Crusader become a truly capable fighter aircraft. Carrying over many of the features of the F-8B, the F-8C’s main improvements would be in performance and firepower, most important of which was the installation of the more powerful J57-P-16 which produced a total thrust 16,900lbs giving a marked increase in flight performance over the previous models. The increase in flight performance also required the addition of two noticeable features those being cooling scoops on the engine cowling and ventral strakes for high speed stability both of which would become standard on later fighter versions of the Crusader. Next the controls for the horizontal tail were strengthened and the movement of the elevators was decreased to give clearance between them and the strakes. Finally the last major additions made were changes made to the AN/AWG-3 by replacing the Mk.16 with the improved EX-16 (the APS-67 was retained) and the addition dual Y shaped fuselage pylons which doubled the amount of Sidewinder missiles and Zuni rockets that could be carried greatly increasing the Crusaders firepower. In 1965 the F-8C would be one of the first F-8 models to receive ECM equipment from project shoehorn in the form of the AN/ALQ-51 ECM suite which included (in addition to the aforementioned jammer) the AN/ALQ-27 MWS and AN/ALE-29 countermeasure dispenser greatly increasing it’s defensive capabilities. Later in 1968 87 F-8Cs would be rebuilt as F-8Ks as part of the remanufacturing program, upgrades were mostly the same as those on the F-8L which included the strengthened airframe, landing gear, tailhook, 4000 hour wing and approach power compensator unlike the F-8L however wing pylons were actually added to F-8K allowing it to carry ordinance for ground attack. Additionally some sources claim that during the rebuild the F-8K received either a better radar or engine but these claims are untrue.

 

F8U-2N/F-8D/F-8H:

Screenshot_20210503-052226_Kindle.thumb.

"F-8H of VF-202, equipped with Zuni rockets and wing pylons"
Continuing on from the C model we now come to the F-8D which introduced some of the most important features and changes to the Crusader, the first of which was the removal of the rocket tray with it finally being replaced by a fuel tank (increasing the total fuel load by 75 gallons), second was the addition of the AN/AAS-15 IRST allowing for passive search and track of targets which was included in the new AN/AWG-4 which featured the new AN/APQ-83 search and track radar giving the Crusader true all weather capabilities additionally it also had a continuous wave feature allowing it to illuminate targets for the specially designed (though seldom used) SARH AIM-9C missile. Other avionic changes included the installation of a three axis autopilot and a approach power compensator which made carrier landings far less dangerous to do (this was retroactively added onto the B and C models during their rebuilds), these avionic changes also applied to the cockpit as well most notable was the inclusion of a dual stick configuration (one for flight controls and weaponry and the other for radar controls), this change allowed for most of the radar controls to be moved making space for the autopilot and APC controls on the left console other slight changes were made to the centre console (such as a slightly different radar scope and armament selection panel) the right console was also received slight changes but for the most part remained the same. The final change made was the installation of the J57-P-20 engine which gave a total thrust of 18,000lbs, with this engine installed the F-8D had the best performance of any production model Crusader. In 1967 and 1968 89 F-8Ds would be rebuilt as the F-8H, the upgrades applied to the H were the same as the K (strengthened airframe, landing gear, tail hook, 4000 hour wing and wing pylons), in addition to these the F-8H also received the F-8E’s bullpup hump (used to store ECM equipment) and distinctive rectangular radar scope moreover while it was not part of the remanufacturing program the F-8H also received the AN/ALQ-51 ECM suite to enhance it’s defensive capabilities. Even later on in 1969 to 1970 the F-8H would once again be upgraded receiving the newer AN/ALQ-100 ECM suite (stored in a larger rugby ball shaped tail fairing) which in addition to the APR-27 and ALE-29 also included the AN/APR-30 RWR however the APR-30 was not given it’s own display instead it used the radar scope to display information, this worked by way of the pilot being able to choose to display either only the radar or RWR separately or instead using the override mode wherein the RWR will override the radar and display lines of bearing if a radar lock is detected. Next the APQ-83 radar was upgraded becoming the AN/APQ-149 and finally the last upgrade was the installation of the better J57-P-420 which saw a massive increase to 19,600lbs of thrust, with this engine installed the F-8H gained the best flight performance of any fighter variants of the Crusader (having a near 1:1 thrust to weight ratio at low weights) turning it into one of (if not) the definitive Crusader model.   


F8U-2NE/F-8E/F-8J:

Screenshot_20210321-025911_Kindle.thumb.

"F-8J of VF-211, equipped with dual Zuni rockets"
And now we come to the most famous variant of the Crusader, the F-8E! Essentially an improved F-8D the E incorporated fewer (but still very important upgrades) upgrades most of which would be added onto the pervious models during their rebuilds. To start of the most noticeable addition to the F-8E was the AN/APQ-94 radar set which was built as an improvement on the APQ-83, the new radar was larger then it’s predecessor (hence the better performance) which required the F-8’s nose to once again be re designed as a result the radome became overall both larger and much rounder to accommodate it, additionally the eye catching rectangular radar scope replaced the previous square shaped one. Next came the addition of the bullpup hump which while originally intended to house the electronics for the aforementioned AGM was instead used to house part of the AN/ALQ-51 ECM suite from project shoehorn which on the E also contained the APR-30 RWR (it should be mentioned that the first 50 F-8E’s did not initially have hump but this added to them during retrofits), the final major upgrade the E model received was the ability mount pylons on it’s wings giving it access to various bombs and rockets for ground attack missions; outside of these additions the F-8E is overall the same aircraft as the F-8D using the same avionics, ACS and engine is a little heavier then the F-8D (by 300lbs) giving it a slight degrade in flight performance despite this however it is much superior to the D due it’s multi role capabilities and better radar set making it the definitive version of the production model Crusaders. In 1968 136 F-8Es would receive the most extensive rebuild in the form of the F-8J which in addition to the standard features of the rebuild program (strengthened airframe, landing gear, tailhook and 4000 hour wing) received a new radar the AN/APQ-124 (which while originally intended to have a pulse doppler mode never had this feature added) and the enhanced landing features found on the French F-8E(FN), this included double hinged wing slats, enlarged elevators and BLC blown flaps giving improved landing performance decreasing the landing speed of the J by 15 knots. There was just one problem with this, due to all these additions the empty weight of the J had increased by about 1500lbs (mostly due to the BLC) something which the J57-P-20A was simply not designed to handle making the F-8J overweight and underpowered, this was most noticeable when trying to land on a carrier since the BLC bled air from the engine further decreasing the available power making landings quite a hassle to perform. To overcome this issue many fixes were tried (mainly by changing the incidence of the wing and deflection angles of the flaps and ailerons) but the long term solution would be the installation of the J57-P-420 which gave a 1,600 lb increase to total thrust resolving the weight issues of the J. However even with the P-420 installed the J could not achieve the same levels of flight performance that it’s predecessor did nor did it come close to the F-8H which also had the P-420, never the less the F-8J would be the only model used on US Navy carriers after 1970 due to it’s better landing performance. Additionally like the F-8H the J was also upgraded several times after it’s rebuild being given the AN/ALQ-100 ECM suite in 1969 and another 1975 were it was given the AN/ALQ-126 ECM jammer and the better AN/ALR-40-50 RWR (this set contained fairings on the sides of the intakes). 


F-8E(FN)/F-8P:

20210911_225856.thumb.jpg.da2c28bbd755c0

"F-8E(FN) of Flotille 12.F, poses with the SARH version of the Matra R.530 missile"
Finally we come to the last production model of the Crusader, the F-8E(FN). Built specifically for the Marine Nationale (the French navy) the E(FN) came due the services need to replace it’s ageing Aquilon fighters (a licensed version of the Sea Venom) however due to rather small size of the 2 Clemenceau class carriers (Clemenceau and Foch) the options for a replacement were very limited by the requirement of low takeoff and landing speeds which  immediately ruled out large aircraft such as the F-4 Phantom, in the end due to it’s takeoff and landing characteristics (as well as the two seat TF-8A’s performance at the 1963 Paris air show) the F-8E was chosen as France’s next naval fighter, despite this changes still needed to be made to the design to accommodate the requirements of the Marine Nationale. The easiest part of the changes was integrating the domestic Matra R.530 missile into the F-8s weapon system, this required changes to the EX-16 and APQ-94 after which the APQ-94 was redesignated the AN/APQ-104 (it retained the same performance as the APQ-94 however). The harder part involved actually getting the Crusader onto the decks of Clemenceau and Foch which even with the low speeds the Crusader could fly at was still not slow enough for it to be practically possible, to fix this issue the Crusader had various features installed to enhance landing performance such as double hinged wing slats and a Boundary Layer Control system in the wings, this system (activated by changing the wings incidence) bled air from the engines high pressure compressor and forced it through nozzles located on top of the flaps and ailerons increasing the point at which the airflow separates from the wing (essentially it gets more lift), additionally larger elevators were fitted allowing for better control at slow speeds, additionally their leading edges were tipped with titanium to better resist the blast of the R.530s rocket motor. There were 3 other small changes made with this model those being the flaps and ailerons now drooped at 40 degrees, the wings angle of incidence was decreased to 5 degrees and finally instruments for the BLC were added in the cockpit. With all these additions the F-8E(FN) could now land on the French carriers without trouble, it did however come at the cost of flight performance due to a weight increase of 1500lbs but considering the limitations put on the Marine Nationale at the time the degraded performance was a worthy trade off. The “Cruze” would go on to see a very long service with the French Navy (with it’s upgrades being retroactively added to the F-8E when it was rebuilt as the F-8J) and in that time it received various upgrades such as the F-8J’s 4000 hour wing, a new afterburner for it’s engine ,integration of the Matra R.550 Magic missile and later it’s successor the all aspect Magic 2. However it’s most important upgrade would come in 1989 when 17 E(FN)s would be rebuilt as the F-8P (as in prolong) as a stopgap until the Dassault Rafale M could enter service. As part of the rebuild each aircraft would be have their wiring and hydraulic systems replaced, their airframe would be strengthened to extend fatigue life, the cockpit had several of it’s instruments moved or replaced such as the IFF and altimeter. Additionally the Mirage F-1’s nav system was installed and the Cruze also recieved the sherlock RWR (with it’s own display). The F-8Ps would serve until 1999 when they were finally replaced by Rafale M, they would be the last F-8s in military service bringing an end to more then 40 years of service.

 

Now with every version of the Crusader explained we can now look at the in game F-8E and see what exactly is incorrect with it starting with the visuals of the plane.


Visuals:
Here we have a photo of my in game F-8E (sorry about the jaws but I couldn’t help myself):

15-09-2021_01-10-29-x2wsftxr.thumb.png.f

Overall the model accurately represents the real life F-8E and has that aircrafts key features such as the hump, IRST, single right side vent, larger nose and even the small pitot tube at the end nose's front. Additionally it fly’s the with the paint scheme of VF-162 hunters the squadron of which famous F-8 pilot Richard Bellinger was the commander of (if you don’t know who that is I’d implore you to look him up his story of flying the F-8 is was an amazing first). The one exception to this is that the rocket tray is still visually modelled on both the E and E(FN), how can you tell? Because the belly is the same one the F-8C has, and by opening the airbrake you can still see the trays support beams:

  15-09-2021_01-22-21-juh21q1a.thumb.png.7 Screenshot_20210915-012717_Kindle.thumb.
To fix this the belly just needs to be visually changed to better reflect that the tray is no longer there this would involve mounting the airbrake directly to the fueselage with a well above it’s mounting as shown here:

Screenshot_20210915-012743_Kindle.thumb.
And the skin in between the airbrake and nose gear need to changed to this :

20210915_015128.thumb.jpg.191690bb13ee42

 

Almost forgot about this but there is actually one other feature on the F-8E thats missing from the ingame version which is this:

Screenshot_20210915-023900_Kindle.thumb.

"Rain repellent sprayer" 

The F-8E had a sprayer system on the left side of it's nose used to spray rain repellent onto the windcreen, it's a small detail but one thats missing nonetheless.

 

Now with the visuals looked at lets move onto actual inaccuracies with the aircraft.


Inaccuracies:

1. Incorrect left side dual fuselage pylons (again): 

 

Starting off we have one that I myself thought was actually fixed, as it turns out it was only half fixed. For some context the in game left side dual pylons were originally mirrored versions of the ones on the right, in real life however this was not the case because they were angled differently which was necessary to avoid the aerial refuelling probe, as of right now the bottom left pylon is angled correctly but the top one is not, here’s some photo’s of the F-8E prototype with the pylons equipped compared to what we have in game :

Screenshot_20210910-184958_Drive.thumb.j 15-09-2021_00-53-53-yuabpwoo.thumb.png.6

 

So  even though it's not a 1 to 1 comparison we can clearly see the top left pylon is a mirror of the top right one. To fix this the pylon simply needs to be angled outward at 45 degrees instead of being angled upwards at 75 degrees like it is right now.

 

2. Gun row selection (again):

Here’s another simple one, in fact this one has already been fixed. In real life the Crusader received a modification (AFC-493) that allowed the pilot to selectively use either the top or bottom row of cannons as a form of ammo conservation. The in game F-8E and E(FN) strangely do not have this implemented however (despite it being properly implemented on the F-8C); to fix this issue all that’s required is to implement it on the F-8E and F-8E(FN) the same way it is on the F-8C (top row = machine guns, bottom row = cannons). 

 

3.Missing single pylon load outs:
Yet again we have a very simple issue, the F-8E for whatever reason is missing most of it’s single pylon load outs with the only one implemented right now being the 2x AIM-9B; these should be added to the F-8E because the option to choose between the single and dual pylons allows the player to choose whether they want better flight performance or firepower respectively. I understand that for most people (me included) the dual pylons are the more popular option but these should still be added as they are already in game on the F-8C and would not require any work to add.
To fix this issue these single pylon loadouts should be added: 2x AIM-9D, 2x AIM-9C and 1x AIM-9D & 1x AIM-9C.  

 

4.Missing ground ordinance load outs:
As some who have flown the F-8E might notice it is missing several load outs for it’s ground ordinance, most notably is the inability to carry 8x fuselage mounted Zuni’s alongside ordinance on the wings and no mixed load out options including the mighty mouse rockets. Additionally there are some inaccuracies with 3 ordinance loadouts the first 2 being the rocket loadouts, essentially there should only be 2 rocket pods per pylon as stated in the manual while there are photo’s of the F-8 carrying 3 on each wing (such as the one of the F-8E prototype I showed) this was likely just for image and wasn’t actually possible. The other loadout that is incorrect is the 1,000lb bomb loadout which does not carry enough, as stated at the bottom of this page:

Screenshot_20210913-044001_Drive.thumb.j

"List of equipable ordinance for one of the F-8E's wing pylons"
In total the F-8E should be able to carry 4x 1,000lbs bombs outboard and centre pylons of the MER.
To fix the missing loadouts add mixed options for both the dual fuselage mounted Zuni’s and wing mounted mighty mouse rockets, reduce the amount of wing mounted rocket pods that can be carried from 6 to 4 and increase the amount 1,000 lbs bombs carried from 2 to 4.  

 

5.Inaccurate radar:
Ok this one I’m not even sure how they got this wrong. In game both the F-8E and E(FN) for some reason use the APQ-83, which as some of you will know is the radar of the F-8D...

15-09-2021_01-30-02-eo4wr3uf.thumb.png.4

"...why?"

Unlike most issues however we know how this happened which is because someone reported on the dev server that the F-8’s radar should be either the APQ-83 or APQ-94, likely because they only looked at the F-8D/E flight manual which does not specify which aircraft uses which radar set, of course though this is not the case as the F-8E should be using the APQ-94 (the entire reason it has a bigger nose) and the F-8E(FN) should be using the APQ-104. Additionally the azimuth range settings are also not correct being set at 23 miles and 46 miles when in fact these should be set at 20 miles and 40 miles (the radar also had a 60 mile setting but this did not have a track feature so this does not need to be added), additionally here is the F-8E SAC which shows it is equiped with AN/APQ-94:

Screenshot_20210915-010702_Drive.thumb.j

"SAC for the F-8E, the APQ-94 is in the electronics section"
To fix this redesignate the F-8E’s radar as the AN/APQ-94 and the F-8E(FN)’s as the AN/APQ-104, additionally the azimuth range settings should be changed to 20 miles and 40 miles.

 

6.Mixed AIM-9 load out launch limit:
Again we have another simple issue that can be very easily fixed, as most know by now, the AIM-9D has a launch limit of 4g when you take the mixed loadout of it and the AIM-9C. This is of course inaccurate as the AIM-9D has no launch so the fix for this is pretty easy, just remove the launch limit. I’d also like to add 2 things, firstly the AIM-9C just uses the AIM-9D’s visual model which is incorrect because it should instead look like this:

image.thumb.png.915cb46e1efc7e9308d4e28d image.thumb.png.85688f43fc71ac644d31ca6a  

"From top to bottom: AIM-9B, AIM-9D, AIM-9C"                      "F-8E with AIM-9C (top) and AIM-9D (bottom)
Secondly I would suggest adding a 1x AIM-9C & 3x AIM-9D loadout which was possible in real life (and was the more popular option), the main reason this should be added is so you have more flexibility on combat (since the AIM-9D’s are more reliable) while still allowing for you perform head on attacks (with the single AIM-9C).

 

So with all the inaccuracies covered lets move onto what can be additions can be made to the F-8E.
 

Additions:
1.AN/APR-30 RWR:
Before going into this I need to give a massive shout out to DJBscout for finding this. As it turns out the F-8E does in fact have the AN/APR-30 RWR (something I previously believed only the F-8H and F-8J had) which you can see mentioned in it’s manual here highlighted in red:

Screenshot_20210915-011505_Drive.thumb.j
So obviously this needs to be added to the F-8E as soon as possible, additionally the AN/ALQ-51 fairing and fins should be visually as those (along with the APR-27) were required for the APR-30 to work, here’s a photo of an F-8H with the ALQ-51 ECM suite installed: 
20210321_173739.thumb.jpg.93fee977f7ccd8

"F-8H of VF-111 with AN/ALQ-51 ECM upgrades, note the fairing on the tail and the small ventral fins"

2.Better engine:
And here we have something that counts as both an inaccuracy and an addition at the same time, in game the F-8E use’s the J57-P-20 engine however in real life the F-8E was eventually equipped with the upgraded J57-P-20A:

Screenshot_20210828-164734_Drive.thumb.j
The P-20A increases the military thrust (in game max thrust) from 10,700lbf (4,850 kgf) to 11,400lbf (5,170kgf). As you may have just noticed this also means that the P-20 in game is actually underperforming in terms of military thrust, this is actually worse for the F-8E(FN) which (despite having the P-20A) has the same thrust ratings as the F-8E! To solve this the J57-P-20A should be added to the F-8E increasing it’s max thrust being increased to 5,170kgf, this change should also be applied to the F-8E(FN) which already has the P-20A.  

 

Conclusion:
And that is pretty much everything wrong with the F-8E in game, I hope this topic (like the last) has been educational for people who didn’t know that much about the Crusader and that it also gets people talking about the problems in game or even reporting them. Below this you will find pretty much every source I’ve used and a google drive that contain every first hand source I have on the Crusader (and a few secondary ones too) so if your interested in that then please go read them. Additionally if you haven't done so already then I implore you to go and check my suggestion post on the F-8D/H, as I've said many times before this is the best version of the Crusader and should be the one added to the game (instead of the F-8J) so if you want to see it in the game please go and vote for it, you'll find the link for it under this post (as part of my signature).

 

Finally before I go I would like to thank all of you for waiting for me to get this out (as I have no doubt some of you were expecting this) I won't lie it was a real struggle to do this, not because of all the info gathering mind you (that was easy) but because I had to redo the entire thing about halfway through making it because my browser reloaded the page and I lost everything but I pulled through and now after 5 days this massive post about my favourite aircraft is finally done, so once again thank you. 

 

References:

  1. NATOPS flight manual, Navy model: F-8D and F-8E aircraft, NAVAIR 01-45 HHD-1, Dated "1st of November 1964", Revised "1st of March 1968"
  2. Supplemental NATOPS flight manual, Navy model: F-8D and F-8E aircraft, NAVAIR 01-45 HHD-1A, Dated "1st of May 1965", Revised "1st of December 1966"
  3. SAC , Navy model: F-8E aircraft, NAVAIR 00-110AF8-5,  Dated "1st July 1967"
  4. Vought F-8 Cruader, development of the Navy’s first supersonic jet fighter, by William D. Spidle
  5. F-8 & RF-8 Crusader, in detail & scale, by Bert Kinzey, art by Rock Roszak
  6. Walk around F-8 Crusader, by Ed Barthelmes, colour by Don Greer and Darren Glenn, illustrated by David Gebhart  
  7. F-8 Crusader illustrated, by Lou Drendel
  8. MiG Master, The story of the F-8 Crusader, by Barret Tillman
  9. Vought's F-8 Crusader part four: Naval fighter squadrons (Naval Fighters Number Nineteen), By Steve Ginter
  10. Superheat's Notes: F8U/F-8 Crusader, by Thomas H. Thomason, in dedication to Tom "Superheat" Weinel

 

Link to google drive containing first hand sources:

Edited by KekDermott@live
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  • KekDermott@live changed the title to The F-8E Crusader, issues with the "Last Gunfighter" that once again aren't the flight model
Just now, jhb2004710 said:

Again, another great post. By the way, do you mind if I post this on the subreddit? perhaps it could draw more attention to the post.

No problem go ahead and do it

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hello again everyone :)

 

Ive just submitted a historical report about the missing AN/APR-30 RWR system mentioned in the post above. Its my first bug report, but its a pretty important addition, and I think it would really help the plane out in ARB with the new SARH missiles now dominating top tier. I will post here if/when the report is approved.

image.png.86f0fa62f3ceede716aa834fd69fa5

Edited by jhb2004710
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6 minutes ago, jhb2004710 said:

hello again everyone :)

 

Ive just submitted a historical report about the missing AN/APR-30 RWR system mentioned in the post above. Its my first bug report, but its a pretty important addition, and I think it would really help the plane out in ARB with the new SARH missiles now dominating top tier. I will post here if/when the report is approved.

image.png.86f0fa62f3ceede716aa834fd69fa5

Great to see that been done, I've just reported the Inaccurate fuselage pylons and I'll likely be doing the radar next. Btw have made sure to add that if it recieves the RWR the visual model will need to be changed to have the tail fairing and small ventral fins?

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10 minutes ago, KekDermott@live said:

Great to see that been done, I've just reported the Inaccurate fuselage pylons and I'll likely be doing the radar next. Btw have made sure to add that if it recieves the RWR the visual model will need to be changed to have the tail fairing and small ventral fins?

I actually didn't, but I will be adding those right now. Thanks for the reminder.

 

edit: just edited the report, Tail fairing and ventral fins are added.

Edited by jhb2004710

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7 minutes ago, jhb2004710 said:

I actually didn't, but I will be adding those right now. Thanks for the reminder.

 

edit: just edited the report, Tail fairing and ventral fins are added.

If you want you can use this picture of an F-8H with the upgrades installed to give a good picture of where they should be:

20210321_173739.thumb.jpg.93fee977f7ccd8

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Just now, KekDermott@live said:

If you want you can use this picture of an F-8H with the upgrades installed to give a good picture of where they should be:

20210321_173739.thumb.jpg.93fee977f7ccd8

thats the exact picture i used actually, but thank you :lol2:

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I commend you sir, as a fellow lover of naval aviation and a Crusader fan, for this excellent post. My own bug reports on the matter were summarily ignored, and I hope this gets more traction.
 

Have you been able to find any information on the launch limits for the AIM-9C? I would bet the launch limit is not 4G and that 4G is just them being lazy with copy-paste AIM-9B code.

 

Your reports about loadout inconsistencies illustrates how desperately this game needs a pylon system.

Edited by Mr_New_Vegas
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On 17/09/2021 at 05:40, Mr_New_Vegas said:

 

Have you been able to find any information on the launch limits for the AIM-9C? I would bet the launch limit is not 4G and that 4G is just them being lazy with copy-paste AIM-9B code.

 

i dont think its using AIM-9B code I think its using the outdated AIM-9D/G code the C's are acting funny exactly like how the D/G's were before the fix. they are constantly over leading and missing. I fired a C at a mig 23 flying almost perfectly straight but it was like 50 meters below and to the left of him before pulling in last second to hit him.

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5 hours ago, Jayj115 said:

i dont think its using AIM-9B code I think its using the outdated AIM-9D/G code the C's are acting funny exactly like how the D/G's were before the fix. they are constantly over leading and missing. I fired a C at a mig 23 flying almost perfectly straight but it was like 50 meters below and to the left of him before pulling in last second to hit him.

The launch values are stored in the loadout file, not the FM file. The loadout file is obviously an AIM-9B file hastily edited with AIM-9Ds and Cs, which means they didn't remove the launch limits and the missile icons for that specific loadout are wrong. 

 

As for the FM, naval sidewinders have been garbage recently. AIM-9Bs are more reliable because for whatever reason, gaijin has decided that these missiles should miss non-maneuvering targets. It's a problem with their proportional navigation code on the backend, which it seems has a hard time reconciling missiles who attempt to lead their targets more, resulting in them constantly overleading their targets and trying to correct at the last second when they have neither the requisite time, distance, or control authority to ensure a kill. These missiles are incapable of hitting targets that aren't flying directly towards or away from you because of how reliably their guidance makes them miss otherwise easy hits. 

 

What do I care though, I'm not even playing this game anymore. Trying to fly my favorite plane when it is de-facto 11.0 with missiles that actively steer away from the target has been the last straw. 

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7 minutes ago, The_Monolith said:

The launch values are stored in the loadout file, not the FM file. The loadout file is obviously an AIM-9B file hastily edited with AIM-9Ds and Cs, which means they didn't remove the launch limits and the missile icons for that specific loadout are wrong. 

 

As for the FM, naval sidewinders have been garbage recently. AIM-9Bs are more reliable because for whatever reason, gaijin has decided that these missiles should miss non-maneuvering targets. It's a problem with their proportional navigation code on the backend, which it seems has a hard time reconciling missiles who attempt to lead their targets more, resulting in them constantly overleading their targets and trying to correct at the last second when they have neither the requisite time, distance, or control authority to ensure a kill. These missiles are incapable of hitting targets that aren't flying directly towards or away from you because of how reliably their guidance makes them miss otherwise easy hits. 

 

What do I care though, I'm not even playing this game anymore. Trying to fly my favorite plane when it is de-facto 11.0 with missiles that actively steer away from the target has been the last straw. 

It's embarassing, honestly. What's the point of a dev server if you're going to put such a low amount of effort into loadout parameters? Any fool from the forums could do a better job than this.

Edited by Mr_New_Vegas
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I've also noticed with the 9C that if you launch at a target at medium-short range from the side the missile will just fly straight, then try and turn in (as with the above examples) at the last second, missing the target by a country mile. It's annoying enough playing a plane that has no RWR and that gets uptiered 90% of the time to a BR rampant with pulse-doppler radar, Skyflash/Aim-7E-2 carrying planes. Then on top of that your missiles don't work properly half the time, and I really don't see the appeal of this plane currently.

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So why is nobody talking about the fact that the F-8E doesn't have the compass display? Meaning you are basically blind and can't use the search radar to spot targets. Sure there's the little radar display at the bottom but it's not accurate and practical at all.

 

It's been like that for days.

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5 minutes ago, _FoeHammer_ said:

So why is nobody talking about the fact that the F-8E doesn't have the compass display? Meaning you are basically blind and can't use the search radar to spot targets. Sure there's the little radar display at the bottom but it's not accurate and practical at all.

 

It's been like that for days.

 

They just removed that compass for all aircraft with radars because apparently that's what people wanted, although I definitely did not want them to remove it and the only response I've seen so far is people wanting it back.

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21 minutes ago, Paul__C said:

 

They just removed that compass for all aircraft with radars because apparently that's what people wanted, although I definitely did not want them to remove it and the only response I've seen so far is people wanting it back.

 

Oh I'm dumb. I've been playing the F8E only for 4-5 days. Never saw anyone wanting this tho. Also why removing it in a ninja update like that. That's kinda big news, they should have removed it in the big update instead if they wanted to imo. And finally, why completely remove the compass instead of just the radar "markers" on it?! That was still useful sometimes for giving directions to your teammates. Now I have to go into cockpit view to use it? Makes no sense.

Edited by _FoeHammer_
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41 minutes ago, _FoeHammer_ said:

 Also why removing it in a ninja update like that. That's kinda big news, they should have removed it in the big update instead if they wanted to imo.

 

It wasn't really a ninja update. They did announce it: https://warthunder.com/en/news/7349/current/

Quote

Modern combat equipment has numerous systems that are sometimes duplicated in different areas of the interface. For example, data from the radar appeared at the bottom left corner, as well as at the top of the screen as an azimuth scale.

We’ve analyzed your preferences and decided to remove the scale to make observance of combat easier and clearer for you.

 

Personally I don't think it's a good change though. They really should have given us an option to turn it on / off.

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