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Battle class 4.5”/45 QF mk5


Tank_Killer1
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(This is my experience in arcade)


Since the damage model changes for dd’s this gun is in my opinion is very underwhelming. 
 

The H.E shell is so weak when compared to lower br ships within its own tech tree. I’d rather use the 4.0 Hunt class which has stronger H.E shells despite the fact the 4.5” firing a heavier shell then both the 102mm and the 120mm guns.

 

The 114mm was supposed to be a powerful DP gun for destroyers, however it’s seems like a downgrade to any 4.0 or 4.3 British destroyer. 
 

It was comparable to the 5”/38 that the USA destroyers have but I don’t feel that is the case in Warthunder.

 

The only pro I can see using this gun is a good rate of fire but that is offset by its accuracy and it’s can shoot down planes. 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

There are a few problems with the QF 4.5 inch gun currently:

 

1) The explosive filler for HE shells should be RDX/TNT, not pure TNT. The Royal Navy shifted to RDX/TNT for all HE shells by 1945. The Battle class (both Armada and Tobruk ingame) all commissioned in 1945 or later. B.R. 932, Handbook on Ammunition (1945):
 

Spoiler

oN063C9.png

 

2) The explosive filler weight is too small for the HE shells (HE, HE-DF, and HE-VT). It should be 4 lb 1 oz = 1.84 kg RDX/TNT. Currently it is only 1.22 kg TNT. Combined with the fact that the filling is now RDX/TNT, the TNT equivalent should be around 2.35 kg TNT (using the ingame multiplier of 1.28), which is almost double the current value. The source of the filler weight is from Ammunition Bulletin No. 1 For Inspecting Ordnance Officers (May 1939) :

 

Spoiler

Y1rOyp7.png

 

This refers to the Army's QF 4.5 inch Mark II AA gun, which used the same ammunition as the naval QF 4.5 inch gun. Indeed, it is essentially the naval 4.5 inch gun in a land-based mounting. Here, it is filled with TNT since the manual is from 1939.

 

3) British SAP should be about 4% TNT explosive filler by weight. Currently the 4.5 inch SAP has only 0.72 kg (about 3%), whereas at 4% it would be 0.92 kg. B.R. 932, Handbook on Ammunition (1945):

 

Spoiler

mdjGSo7.png

 

The HE filler buff, in particular, would immensely improve their viability. Right now they suffer a lot with the new damage models. I don't think the SAP buff will make a big difference, but a buff would be welcome still.

 

I've already made a report which has yet to be accepted.

Edited by SuperComrade
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17 minutes ago, SuperComrade said:

There are a few problems with the QF 4.5 inch gun currently:

 

1) The explosive filler for HE shells should be RDX/TNT, not pure TNT. The Royal Navy shifted to RDX/TNT for all HE shells by 1945. The Battle class (both Armada and Tobruk ingame) all commissioned in 1945 or later. B.R. 932, Handbook on Ammunition (1945):
 

Reveal hidden contents

 

2) The explosive filler weight is too small for the HE shell. It should be 4 lb 1 oz = 1.84 kg RDX/TNT. Currently it is only 1.22 kg TNT. Combined with the fact that the filling is now RDX/TNT, the TNT equivalent should be around 2.35 kg TNT (using the ingame multiplier of 1.28), which is almost double the current value. The source of the filler weight is from Ammunition Bulletin No. 1 For Inspecting Ordnance Officers (May 1939) :

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

This refers to the Army's QF 4.5 inch Mark II AA gun, which used the same ammunition as the naval QF 4.5 inch gun. Indeed, it is essentially the naval 4.5 inch gun in a land-based mounting. Here, it is filled with TNT since the manual is from 1939.

 

3) British SAP should be about 4% TNT explosive filler by weight. Currently the 4.5 inch SAP has only 0.72 kg (about 3%), whereas at 4% it would be 0.92 kg. B.R. 932, Handbook on Ammunition (1945):

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

The HE filler buff in particular would immensely improve their viability. Right now they suffer a lot with the new damage models. I don't think the SAP buff will make a big difference, but a buff would be welcome still.

 

I've already made a report which has yet to be accepted.

If you don't want to wait months, just send it to me, and I transfer it through the Russian forum.;)

Edited by Magiaconatus
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15 minutes ago, Magiaconatus said:

If you don't want to wait months, just send it to me, and I transfer it through the Russian forum.;)


Okay, I'll quote it here. I appreciate your offer to help.

 

Incorrect Filler Weights and Compositions for British Shells

 

# Game version 2.7.0.176

# Description

Some British shells have incorrect explosive fillers.

 

Late-war British HE shells of calibre less than 8-inches (especially those with VT fuzes) should be using RDX/TNT, instead of pure TNT. Shells that should have RDX/TNT ingame are:

  • All HE-VT shells smaller than 8-inches , since VT fuzes were introduced in the Royal Navy around 1944 and thus they represent late-war shells on British ships.
  • All HE shells for the Battle-class destroyers HMS Armada and HMAS Tobruk (HE, HE-TF, HE-VT), since Armada, the first of the class, was commissioned in July 1945 and Tobruk was commissioned in 1950.

 

Furthermore, the explosive fillers of the 4.5-inch gun's shells are too low:

  • HE shells for the QF 4.5-inch guns on HMS Armada and HMS Tobruk currently have only 1.22 kg TNT, which is only about 4.5% of the shell mass (55 lb = 24.95 kg); the mass should be 4 lb 1 oz (1.84 kg), i.e., about 7% of the shell's mass . As mentioned above, the filling should be RDX/TNT since these ships were commissioned in 1945 or later.
  • In general, British SAP shells should have 4% of their weight as explosive filler. The SAP for the QF 4.5-inch guns on HMS Armada and HMS Tobruk currently has only 0.72 kg TNT, which is only very slightly above 3% of the shell mass (23 kg), whereas at 4% the mass should be 0.92 kg.

 

 

# Steps to reproduce the issue

  1. Open up relevant shell information in hangar/port.

 

# Affected vehicles

  • All British ships with access to HE-VT shells of smaller calibre than 8 inches,

  • HMS Armada

  • HMAS Tobruk.

 

# Sources

  1. Source 1 (for SAP filler and RDX/TNT for late-war British HE shells)

    1. B.R. 932, Handbook on Ammunition (1945); Admiralty S.W.1, Naval Ordnance Department

    2. Reveal hidden contents

       

    3. Reveal hidden contents

      Page 10, Paragraph 79

       

      oN063C9.png

       

      Page 41, Paragraph 285

      mdjGSo7.png

 

  1. Source 2 (HE filler amount for 4.5-inch QF HE shells)

    1. Ammunition Bulletin No. 1 For Inspecting Ordnance Officers (May 1939); Chief Inspector of Armaments, Woolwich

    2. Reveal hidden contents

       

    3. Reveal hidden contents

      Page 1

       

      Note that this refers to the QF 4.5-inch Mk. II AA gun, which is the land-based version of the naval 4.5-inch gun but used the same Navy ammunition and was only sited near Navy installations (see Campbell below). Since this bulletin is from 1939, the filler is listed as TNT. By 1945, when the Battle-class first entered service, all Navy HE ammunition was RDX/TNT filled (see Ammunition Handbook B.R. 932 above).

       

      Y1rOyp7.png

  2. Source 3 (HE filler for HE shells, SAP filler, 4.5-inch Army AA gun is the same as Navy's 4.5-inch gun)
    1. Naval Weapons of World War II; John Campbell

    2. Reveal hidden contents

       

    3. Reveal hidden contents

      Page 7

       

      kqjAM4W.png

       

      Page 51 (4.5-inch QF Army AA gun is the same as 4.5-inch QF naval gun)

       

      VAo1hDk.png

  3.  

Edited by SuperComrade
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Should also add that the Battles should have radar direction for their main guns. The entire point of the class is to be true dual-purpose AA/surface combatant ships.

The 4.5-inch main guns were directed by Type 275 fire control radar coupled to Mk. VI or Mark 37 directors. The STAAG Bofors guns also had their own centimetric Type 262 radar for fire control.

That is a separate issue, though.

Edited by SuperComrade
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2 hours ago, Magiaconatus said:

Done! And now we wait.:D I will let you know if they need more info on anything.:salute:

 

Thanks! Sorry, could you also add this to the report?

 

This is more information for the QF 4.5 inch AA gun in the coastal defence role.

 

Source is Ammunition Bulletin No. 20 (June 1941) (pages 8 and 9):

 

Spoiler

bqeDYO2.png

 

Here we have the exact weight of the shells and bursting charges for HE and SAP:

  • HE shell (55 lb), bursting charge of 4 lb 8 dr = 1.83 kg TNT (should be RDX/TNT for 1945 shell, as per B.R.932), which is consistent with the earlier bulletin.
  • SAP shell (55 lb), bursting charge of 2 lb 3 oz 4 dr = 1 kg TNT.

 

This proves the SAP should be heavier and have 1 kg bursting charge.

Also, RDX/TNT filling for QF 4.5 inch shells was approved in July 1941.

Ammunition Bulletin No. 21 (July 1941), page 6:

 

Spoiler

zWFHxPg.png

 

Edited by SuperComrade
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2 hours ago, SuperComrade said:

 

 

Thanks! Sorry, could you also add this to the report?

 

This is more information for the QF 4.5 inch AA gun in the coastal defence role.

 

Source is Ammunition Bulletin No. 20 (June 1941) (pages 8 and 9):

 

Hide contents

 

Here we have the exact weight of the shells and bursting charges for HE and SAP:

  • HE shell (55 lb), bursting charge of 4 lb 8 dr = 1.83 kg TNT (should be RDX/TNT for 1945 shell, as per B.R.932), which is consistent with the earlier bulletin.
  • SAP shell (55 lb), bursting charge of 2 lb 3 oz 4 dr = 1 kg TNT.

 

This proves the SAP should be heavier and have 1 kg bursting charge.

Also, RDX/TNT filling for QF 4.5 inch shells was approved in July 1941.

Ammunition Bulletin No. 21 (July 1941), page 6:

 

Hide contents

 

I added them, thanks!:salute:

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  • Technical Moderator

Thank you so much, I’ve been searching for this for years but turned up nothing :018:

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  • 4 months later...
  • Technical Moderator
On 30/12/2021 at 00:27, Tank_Killer1 said:

Just had a look at the bug report on the Russian forums. This is getting fixed in the next update.

It's already fixed.

 

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