[Feedback] Answering your questions about aircraft SB

[The_Tea_Rex 801]

So, basically, when my premium account expires in 19 days, I can expect to usually earn negative earnings thanks to crippling repairs costs and reduced rewards?

 

Thank you for clarifying this, you just saved me a lot of money.

 

 

I honestly cannot comprehend how you thought that these sorts of changes are okay  after the sheer amount of feedback from the greater sim community .

 

 

[Lieutenant_Camel 622]

ok Gaijin is acting against the wishes of the simulator community! I like simulator very much! I accept the changes and will continue to play simulator. but i hope another developer buys the simulator mode and turns it into a real flight sim! - without silver lions and without golden eagles! ..look at 1C IL2 flight sim!  there it works

[Twisted 3,112]

And once more into the breach we charge 

1. Admit that your reward system and statistics have been totally wrecked by your insistence on bombers, which totally messed up your RPs and SLs.

2. Admit that rather than admit to the rampant abuse of bombers, you keep degrading the rewards of fighters as if you are trying to balance economy.

3. Admit that even as you do this, you know you are wrong, because none of the things you are trying to fix, will actually address the real problem.

4. Admit that the real problem with SB, is that you reward low difficulty Arcade game play, and dis-incentivize  actual SIM game play.

5. Admit that trying to Mash two different rule sets together is what the entire problem is, from abuse, to farming, to the general arseholery that has been rampant over the last years.

 

I doubt you got this far, but if you did . . . lets continue

 

If you actually protected Runways the way they are supposed to be, you would actually immediately deny those abusers who loiter around the runway and get the J-out kills.

 

Ah . .but then the poor darlings would not be able to bomb the 'orrible runway in their flying unicorns.  

 

If you locked all aircraft into cockpit view, removed 3rd person views, for all aircraft , and put in a proper flight model for these awesome aero planes, you would immediately raise the bar, so that a significant portion of losers who like to abuse the system, would be unable to. 

 

Ah . .but then the poor darlings wont be able to take off and shoot those 'orrible fighters down. 

 

If you created proper bomb targets, like factories, shipyards, railway stations, you could then protect runways properly, and still have real missions for bombers.

 

Ah . . .but we created those wonderful modular airfields for the poor darlings to bomb and feel like they won the game  

 

If you actually had a meaningful attrition for player deaths, it would stop most types of abuse and wins would go to the side that actually damaged the enemy heart and soul. 

 

Ah . . .but the poor darlings need to learn and you sim people are so mean 

 

If you actually gave rewards for the difficulty of the task achieved, shooting down named bots is not easy, destroying flights of attackers and bombers and escorts is not easy, yet mashing the space bar over static AI targets and immovable blocks . . .YAY!!! it would remove huge exploits

 

Ah . . .but then the poor darlings will feel inadequate and it will hurt their feelings and wont get RP or SL, everybody should get a participation trophy.  . .in fact the biggest and bestest trophy, except for you sim elitist meanies 

 

As you can see, you are just going down the wrong road.

 

You can do whatever you like, you will never be able to fix this mode and make it something great as long as you keep insisting that you are right  . .when you are so obviously wrong.

 

With each attempt . . . the Abuse keep growing and growing as you move further and further away from the actual place you want to be.

 

While your stubbornness and futile attempts are amusing , you will never be able to fix this until you admit you were wrong and set it straight.

 

I can not even imagine the revenue you must have lost over all these years to pure and obvious abuse, and yet you insist on doing the same thing over and over again and making it worse with each iteration.

 

EC was the best thing and a good model, but you let them break it, just like every single time.

 

Play SIM by SIM rules and your problems will vanish and we can move onto that totally wasted effort of World war and make it something everybody can play and enjoy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Twisted

[Dragonceraptor 56]

Warthunder stops to be a fun game, it's an economical simulation ! "I love this plane... should I play it ? Hum... taking into account the repairs costs, I should consider that I have to kill 2 enemy planes within the first 13min44 sec, bomb 1.22 tons of TNT and return to airfield 1 time. Taking into account my level and the opponent level, I have 43.44% of chances to be shot down... ****... too risky... Ho... should I consider the average level of the opponent team or only the strongest ? Hum, does the level of the players respect a gaussian distribution..."  But sorry, it's not fun.

 

I give up. You don't care, I don't care. Steam is full of other games !

 

My premium is over friday. I will not renew it. I go back to AB with my squadron, for the moment, because even AB is not rentable for me without premium account.

 

Thanks to the community for your efforts.

[erich_vons 0]

So to play sim and turn a meagre profit you have 2 options:

- premium plane (+ prem account as of rank 5) 

- if F2P go up to EC2 Max 

fair enough…

very annoying that new shiny TT planes are added that even with premium will hardly turn a profit. 

 

Anyway I just accepted now that flying fancy jets is “de facto” locked behind not only a paywall (which I would understand) but also a grind wall (as a premium account will not cover the fancy top tier jets sortie costs so you’ll need to down tier to another plane to recover the SL). Which doesn’t make sense, especially for paying customers, paying to avoid the grind. Might as well buy once a module in another sim game and flight it as much as I want.
Your decision Gaijin, I’ll stick with my prem planes & cheap TT planes. 

[LostF0X 1,969]

9 hours ago, The_Tea_Rex said:

 

I honestly cannot comprehend how you thought that these sorts of changes are okay  after the sheer amount of feedback from the greater sim community .

 

 

Easy, They Do Not Care At All! Otherwhise what's the point asking the community feedback just to act in the opposite direction?

Lot of us will save money and our liver too. 

[Lunacae 316]

The fact that you continue to ignore the practical state of the economy is laughable. It is quite literally impossible to simply break even in jet battles, while in the other modes, these same aircraft can easily and reliably earn upwards of 10k SL per 10 minutes of gameplay.

But in SIM EC as it stands, you stand to lose anywhere from 20k to as much as 300k- if not even more!
The economy of SIM EC is obviously weighted to stop players from playing the vehicles they want to.

These changes are tone deaf, made by an algorithm weighing the outliers just as heavily as the rest- if not moreso, and by extension, punishes ordinary players.

Your blatant and deliberate attempts to ignore the greater SIM community in these matters- despite the unanimous agreement among the community that these changes are harmful and nothing else- only makes this ordeal worse than it could be.

Keep the new reward system, but you need to reinstate the spawn point spawn costs, and reduce the repair/flyout costs of aircraft across the board- bring the earnings TRULY in line with other modes for AVERAGE SL/TIME RETURN.
NOT the current SL/Battle return.
 

[chmooreck 923]

On 02/08/2021 at 16:21, Stona said:

In terms of economy balance, there will be no difference. If we remove the fee for the fly out, the cost for repairs will grow accordingly by 2+ times

But AB / RB / ground SB don't have to pay repairs. They can just wait for it to repair itself or use "free repairs", right ?

 

On 02/08/2021 at 16:21, Stona said:

You do not block/ban abusers.

We do! On a weekly basis, game masters punish several people for exploiting “boost” accounts in such “treaty” game sessions. We continue to block violators for using game exploits and similar actions that violate the eula. Just a few recent examples of these players: example1 , example2 , example3 . 

We are very grateful to all the players who personally report to us regarding such abusers.

The point is not banning individual accounts. It should be resolved by making such behavior no more profitable (SL and RP wise) than normal play.

 

For example make first kills per hour (not in match, per hour is the key)  much more profitable then next once, capping it at maybe 10, maybe 15 kills per hour - I'm pretty sure not many honest players can afford such numbers. Make this first kills in every hour viable income for people, who can not afford much more - let novice players have fun too. We (veterans of some sort) can live with not much income for our 15'nth or 20'th kill in a session.

 

On 02/08/2021 at 16:21, Stona said:

So, for example in the latest updates respawn scores were disabled and the timer has been removed

It was one of worst decisions. Now we see mainly top-BR planes in every game.

There was always possibility to take top-BR's to next EC bracket, where they are doing mostly ok'ish.

Not true for EC7? Make EC8 with only top planes, without spawn points and timers (top planes at entry BR) instead of screw game for all others.

 

P.S I'm for reducing max timer to 20 or 15 min, but it's not so important.

Edited August 4, 2021 by chmooreck

[Lunacae 316]

22 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

They quite simply are not.

Global average, perhaps.
But that includes the massive outlier that is the farmers.

We- the regular players- are being actively PUNISHED for playing SIM EC now with this new economy.
There is no longer any reason to even attempt to play the game mode, as doing so will make us lose SL regardless of how well we do.

[Avetorro 215]

3 hours ago, Lunacae said:

We- the regular players- are being actively PUNISHED for playing SIM EC now with this new economy.

Hit the Nail on the head there. If this game wasn’t on servers it would be a great game. But it is on servers and open to abuse. The abuse has been rife and the people who suffer for it are the players...not the abusers. GJ need to tackle the issue in a way that it does not impact on the player base. So many vehicles now have a repair cost and/or BR rating based on data biased by the sheer amount of farming too which is completely unfair. (For example the A7M5 Zero (BR 4.7 in SB) and a repair bill of nearly 50,000 when very, very similar Zeros are around 4-5,000??!!) And it’s still rife. Every night I get a Japanese plane and go to see what rooms are available and it’s full of farming rooms. I mean if someone crashes more than 100 times in a game or has a shadow strike streak of 300 or more....you’d thing the servers could flag that up? “We have the technology gentlemen”. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Drogo_joystick

[Skain79 749]

Thought I'd try my best and see how much I could earn in a tier two match to see what you good folk are on about.
did as many objectives as I could, except bombing mini bases

best I could do in 2 hours was 48,362 SL

...Just wow!

Edited August 4, 2021 by Skain79

[LuftKaffee 188]

1 hour ago, Skain79 said:

Thought I'd try my best and see how much I could earn in a tier two match to see what you good folk are on about.
did as many objectives as I could, except bombing mini bases

best I could do in 2.5 hours was 48,362 SL

...Just wow!

 

LOL, I´m not a SB player but RB.

I need in a good match only 15mins in Ground RB to get 50-100k SL.

My best tactic if i have SL booster, taking a 4.3 Premium plane and hunting bombers and attackers in ground forces. Depending on booster i get 100k - 300k SL in less 20min.

 

I think the most problem are the macro farmers. They are destroying that mode 

 

[chmooreck 923]

2 hours ago, Skain79 said:

Thought I'd try my best and see how much I could earn in a tier two match to see what you good folk are on about.
did as many objectives as I could, except bombing mini bases

best I could do in 2.5 hours was 48,362 SL

You got to subtract spawn cost from it. Look at Messages->Battles

[Kernow1346 1,847]

Been away a few day having a life, but genuinely pleased to see this new topic and an attempt to explain the reasoning behind the economy.  I could make a few observations, but I’ll stick to just one.

 

I’ve seen many, many screenshots from players showing how poor are the rewards in sim EC, yet, “You is wrong,” seems to be the official response.  Perhaps we could see one - just one - screenshot from a dev showing these ‘working as intended’ rewards in sim EC?  You can have an absolute blinder of a game, it doesn’t have to be representative, average or poor, but could we see a screenshot of these ‘same as AB/+ rewards’ please?

 

Ok one other point: interesting that I’ve already seen 2 players who initially welcomed the ‘no SP, no timer’ change saying they now agree with what all the long-time SB players said from the start, ie, it’s a dumb idea.  Funnily enough no one has changed their mind in the opposite sense.

[Skain79 749]

4 hours ago, chmooreck said:

You got to subtract spawn cost from it. Look at Messages->Battles

 

Oh so its even less than  48,362 SL   ....Sheesh!

[onebullet95 343]

i have some question (that probably wont get answers ) what average do you take in mind so you make the others modes similar to the MAIN mode , Arcade average, Realistic average or Simulation average?  because with the La-9 example; all averages were similar, around 85k per hour 

 

I mean, planes have different BR in every game mode, what if a plane is spammed in RB because it has airspawn but in Sim people barely use it (Ta152C3)

 

Do you use RB average to get a profit average in sim so it gets similar to RB?

 

Whats the average (in RB and SB) of Sagittario  because the plane in RB is 44K but in Sim is around 7K? And G55, we know G55  serie 1 is very easy plane in RB but in Sim not too many people flew it because it was expensive, what was the average in RB and Sim?

 

Do you split averages between Air RB and Ground RB? Its not the same killing AI tanks than real tank players.... we can only kill AI tanks.

 

Whats the average on A21 in RB and Sim? There are barely no rooms for EC2-3 sweeden, do you have that in mind?

 

We are confused and would like to hear some answers..... if you arent busy ofcThanks! 

Edited August 4, 2021 by onebullet95SPAIN

[Kaasjager010 248]

I have a feeling Gaijin's data for calculating repair cost and rewards go a bit like this:

9 players make +100k and -75k in 1 hour in SIM (3x F-4 phantom spawns)
1 zomber makes +1million and -25k in 1 hour SIM (1x F-4 phantom spawn)
Conclusion: average rewards are 190k per hour and 67k per spawn. Repair cost are too low!!!

 

I really like the removal of SP and timers and it's a step in the right direction. It has made the game so much more playable.

What absolutely need to change though:

-You can grind backwards (negative SL cost at end of match)
-You are punished for going after player controlled fighter aircraft because if you get shot down it hurts too much financially so many people including myself just end up lookin for bots or AI to shoot down...

Grinding backwards and reasons to avoid busy servers or other players in general are not indicative of a sustainable in game economy.

 

I basically just play vs bots now on empty servers because I can't afford 15k per fly out in my premium Sea Hawk, premium Mig-17 or premium Sea Vixen. The risk of getting shot down are too big. When I bought them they had fly out costs of around 4k * 0.5 = 2k. All the reward increases in the world don't matter if you get shot down time and time again before receiving those rewards! If even the premium aircraft are too expensive too fly then how does that motivate me to buy more? Very dissappointing. I don't care about losing 2k per fly out and getting shot down for an hour straight would cost me the same right now for being shot down once which means I'll just go bot hunting and avoid crowded servers or other players...

Edited August 5, 2021 by Kaasjager010

[BombingFritz 78]

11 hours ago, Kaasjager010 said:

I basically just play vs bots now on empty servers because I can't afford

Welcome to what EC is balanced for now: Bots.

If you have to achieve double-digit k/ds to break even with the spawn costs of your plane, everybody knows this is not to supposed to earn you any reward. It's meant to charge you for participating - and quite a sum, to be honest.

Either that, or nobody ever tested it for even one match, looking at how obvious it is to anybody who plays the game for an hour or so just once. On any BR.

[Mursac 87]

So... I bit the bullet and flew out the A21A-3.  Completely stock, no bombs or rockets.  Everything I scored was guns only with stock ammo belts. 

-Two air kills (named bots) 

-Five enemy T-34s at a front line event (took pot shots at a couple convoys, but couldn't kill anything), and one friendly artillery (partly obscured by the final tank I shot).  I crashed before landing after the tank kills, so I only got partial credit.

-Two capture zones

-Almost an hour played, 91% activity, and a victory. 

 

Basically, a long, uneventful match.

 

189,128 SL earned (w/ a 10% multiplier at the start), and 34,550 SL for a single spawn repair cost.  Ignore the research points.  I'm done researching the Swedish line, and the module earnings show only what was left of the first module I unlocked this round.

 

Total profit of 154,578 SL. 

 

Preliminary

 

Final

 

I'm pretty sure we've been doing this wrong.  That's a good reward for how slow the match was.

Until this point, I've done a mixture of bombing, objectives, and PvP.  This is the first time I attempted to exclusively pursue objectives.  Good rewards are still possible by completing objectives, but PvP seems like it was deliberately carved out.

 

The main question I have, is why?

 

[przybysz86 10,309]

32 minutes ago, Mursac said:

Until this point, I've done a mixture of bombing, objectives, and PvP.  This is the first time I attempted to exclusively pursue objectives.  Good rewards are still possible by completing objectives, but PvP seems like it was deliberately carved out.

 

The main question I have, is why?

 

Those are actually quite interesting results. Maybe something got ninja-buffed or we were doing it all wrong the whole time. I mean - the desctiption given by GJ was not really that obvious.

as for PvP I think that (based on your results) it's just the case that it's super easy to saturate activity. For example what if 1 kill give 100% and it takes say 30mins for it to fade out?
This would mean that getting more than 1 kill per 30min is pointless as you only risk your plane for no additional reward since your activitry is already capped at 100%


I personally have not problem with that and I even said that before that people who have 20-30kills should not be a priority.
If we accept that this is what GJ want us to do then it's ok. Theyt want us to carefully plan and execute our missions even if they take 30min or so and they want us to prioritize survival. Sounds like good recepie for game that try to simulate real combat.

Problem I see is that right now maps are too small and if we have say 10vs10 game there will naturally be a lot more PvP which means a lot more chances to die.

and of course there is still problem that people see discrepancy between what 20-30kills gives them in AB/RB and in SB. Basically we are talking about very strong hard-cap on above avg. player's rewards

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by przybysz86

[Twisted 3,112]

23 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

Sounds like good recepie for game that try to simulate real combat.
 

 

wow . . . problem solved . . .lets tell the worlds air forces, we have a new air doctrine. Fighters will no longer engage the enemy and everybody gets to bomb to living tar out of each other because Gaijin said its good for the economy.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Twisted

[przybysz86 10,309]

8 minutes ago, Twisted said:

 

wow . . . problem solved . . .lets tell the worlds air forces, we have a new air doctrine. Fighters will no longer engage the enemy and everybody gets to bomb to living tar out of each other because Gaijin said its good for the economy.

well no.

remember that losses also apply to bombers and they pay for every time they don't make it so they have to plan their mission to avoid getting shot too.

In other words - zombering is not profitable.
This of course means that if one side will decide to zomber and another will be forced to stop them - then everyone lose SL.

Beside, that's exactly what I've said - on current small maps, likelihood of dying is way too high and no one can expect results like shown 2 posts up

[Twisted 3,112]

5 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

well no.

remember that losses also apply to bombers and they pay for every time they don't make it so they have to plan their mission to avoid getting shot too.

In other words - zombering is not profitable.
This of course means that if one side will decide to zomber and another will be forced to stop them - then everyone lose SL.

Beside, that's exactly what I've said - on current small maps, likelihood of dying is way too high and no one can expect results like shown 2 posts up

 

So what you are saying is that if shooting players down is made unprofitable enough, than bombers can have a safer and more profitable time and there is no need for people to fly fighters and intercept them because thats does not simulates real combat . . and this a good thing  . . we should be congratulating Gaijin on this wise decision?

Edited August 5, 2021 by Twisted

[przybysz86 10,309]

1 minute ago, Twisted said:

 

So what you are saying is that if shooting players down is made unprofitable enough, than bombers can have a safer and more profitable time and there is no need for people to fly fighters because and intercept them because thats does not simulates real combat

no - read again

[Twisted 3,112]

43 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

Those are actually quite interesting results. Maybe something got ninja-buffed or we were doing it all wrong the whole time. I mean - the desctiption given by GJ was not really that obvious.

as for PvP I think that (based on your results) it's just the case that it's super easy to saturate activity. For example what if 1 kill give 100% and it takes say 30mins for it to fade out?
This would mean that getting more than 1 kill per 30min is pointless as you only risk your plane for no additional reward since your activitry is already capped at 100%


I personally have not problem with that and I even said that before that people who have 20-30kills should not be a priority.
If we accept that this is what GJ want us to do then it's ok. Theyt want us to carefully plan and execute our missions even if they take 30min or so and they want us to prioritize survival. Sounds like good recepie for game that try to simulate real combat.

Problem I see is that right now maps are too small and if we have say 10vs10 game there will naturally be a lot more PvP which means a lot more chances to die.

and of course there is still problem that people see discrepancy between what 20-30kills gives them in AB/RB and in SB. Basically we are talking about very strong hard-cap on above avg. player's rewards

 

 

Thats exactly what you are saying . . . lets make player kills so unprofitable that it makes more sense to simply play vs the environment and bombers can have a good time because it simulates real combat 

 

Oh and yes . .carefully plan and execute  . . . above mentioned bombing missions that obviously require careful planning and serious execution.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Twisted