[Feedback] Answering your questions about aircraft SB

[ItalianHitman 1,288]

The maximum theoretical reward is even lower at lower tiers.
For example, for MB.5 (Rank IV premium):

15 (minutes) * 2652 (SL multiplier) * 1.67 (Victory bonus) - 6K (spawn cost) = 60K 

I just don't understand how your "net gain" could be higher than the theoretical maximum ... 

(And just as a reminder, in some other game modes, you can make 184K/15 minutes, practically -not just theoretically-)

@gromvoiny

Edited August 3, 2021 by sudo__su

[przybysz86 10,309]

@Stona @Smin1080p - based on what we see here, big debatable thing is - how SB can compare to RB

Maybe instead of La-9 we can use a different example? Maybe having 2 examples will help us to understand the new system better?

I INSIST you use A21A-3 as an example:

Spoiler

I would appreciate a developer responsible for economy to give us stats for all game modes for this plane when it comes to avg earning but not per hour but per 15mins (avg time spent in AB/RB battle?) instead. 
I would like a 15min scenario in all 3 modes (AB, RB and SB) dissected and analysed in details 

I INSIST you don't use premium account in calculations but assume the player is a regular one.

I thank you in advance for help here. I am sure that if we have clear picture in mentioned scenario, we would have better understanding and maybe we would be able to appreciate the vision behind it.

EDIT:
A21A-3 is a rank III plane, a starter plane for Swedish EC3 so it's very near the earning sweet-spot at rank IV. I therefore I expect it to be on the high side of earning for non-premium planes and should be good and representative example

Edited August 3, 2021 by przybysz86

[gromvoiny 12,767]

1 hour ago, ElGravy said:

 

I believe he's trying to point out the highest SL/minute for the new air SB reward system is 3810 SL/m on all high tier premiums, giving a base theoretical maximum 57,150 SL per 15 minutes if you play flawlessly. That does NOT take into account spawn cost. A 4.7 premium ship made 2.5x that in a 15 minute battle.

 

 

We're discussing a simple statement that on average you shouldn't end up in negative SL on a premium machine regardless of rank or game mode. I don't see how these calculations (whether they're even correct is another question) are related. 

[Lieutenant_Camel 622]

deactivates reward for usefull actions and activates respawn points and the timer again!

 

and everyone is happy!

 

if you fiddle too much makes more broken! 

 

Greetings

Lt. Camel

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Lieutenant_Camel

[Kogarasu_Yuri 11]

Thank you for your honesty and for sharing your vision!
I view your statement very positively.
 

The various measures proposed for Eco update, Farming and Abuser are very meaningful to the game.
I think this will be very beneficial for the game, because if we can eliminate cheating from SB, we can restore the stats that were boosted by cheating, and even apply missions to SB.
It can give SB options to people who used to play only AB and RB.
In other words, it will increase the volume of the game by 1.5 times.
 

Gaijin may not have realized it yet, but there is a huge benefit to making SB fairly viable.
I hope you'll keep up the good work and use a lot of resources to update this game mode into something great.

[onebullet95 343]

@gromvoiny Are you trying to tell us that or we JUST fly premium planes or we barely get something? Really? I mean, i have premium, im ok pilot but do you think its fair for somebody who doesnt have premium planes or account to fly an lose money every single game?

 

Sim was never rewarding in lions if you were a normal pilot, NOT one of those pilots that YOU! let them do bombing/rocket runs  and get thousands and thousands of SL with Phantoms, A2D, 264 or Be-6 (so funny that now that we have AA with missiles and powerful AA, Phantoms dont do that anymore, who would have expected?!) ...... for us, normal pilots we had to fight hordes of people doing that. At the end of the day we got around 80k-200k if u did a good game..... but now you get anything. If you are in the average then you get an ok amount of SL but as far as you are below or above the average, you get nothing!

 

Just please confirm us that we MUST buy premium planes to get "decent" SL. 

Also, tell ask devs why they try to balance Sim economy with AB and RB but not wagers, backups in EC, battlepass....

 

I still havent got a proper answer on how many kills i need to get to get above 100k

 

And this was with premium account 

Edited August 3, 2021 by onebullet95SPAIN

[gromvoiny 12,767]

13 minutes ago, onebullet95SPAIN said:

@gromvoiny Are you trying to tell us that or we JUST fly premium planes or we barely get something? Really? I mean, i have premium, im ok pilot but do you think its fair for somebody who doesnt have premium planes or account to fly an lose money every single game?

 

I'm just repeating what is already stated in our answers. 

 

"The guaranteed positive average balance of income and expenses is applied to vehicles below rank IV as well as premium vehicles (as intended for increased earnings)".

[ItalianHitman 1,288]

39 minutes ago, gromvoiny said:

 

We're discussing a simple statement that on average you shouldn't end up in negative SL on a premium machine regardless of rank or game mode. I don't see how these calculations (whether they're even correct is another question) are related. 

They are based on formulas posted by CMs in previous topics (and conform to actual results, roughly), so yes ... they are correct (though, again, they are the theoretical maximum with 100% activity -which is very difficult to attain- ... practical earnings are even less) 

Just because you are in the "positive" doesn't mean it's fine ... 1 SL/3-hour-game is also positive!
We are talking about the fact that the rewards in Air SB are not in line with other game modes ... 

 

[przybysz86 10,309]

11 minutes ago, gromvoiny said:

"The guaranteed positive average balance of income and expenses is applied to vehicles below rank IV as well as premium vehicles (as intended for increased earnings)".

Can I ask you to dissect the A21A-3 for me?

plane is rank III and cost 45k SL to spawn while being nothing really special.
It's rewards are capped at 1500SL/min according to datasheet for a person w/o premium account.

you want to tell me that every player in game survive for over 29 minutes in A21 while remaining "100% useful" to get full reward?
I have not taken into account victory, etc because for me guaranteed positive average should not include one but even if we assume ideally balanced case of 50% win-rate and multiply planes 1500SL/min reward by 1.33 (getting just shy of 2k/min) it still means that every single player (even the worst one) on average survives 22.5 mins while actively participating in activities to achieve 100% "usefulness".

Is that correct?

There is also one more matter - not losing money is not progress. it's stagnation. every other game mode will, for same amount of effort and same end results give you 10x higher rewards for the same plane

Edited August 3, 2021 by przybysz86

[gromvoiny 12,767]

4 minutes ago, sudo__su said:

We are talking about the fact that the rewards in Air SB are not in line with other game modes ... 

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

[gahab141 33]

1 hour ago, Lieutenant_Camel said:

deactivates reward for usefull actions and activates respawn points and the timer again!

 

and everyone is happy!

No, just no.

 

26 minutes ago, gromvoiny said:

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

If the rewards are in line then why are flight costs not in line with RB repair costs?

[TaumelScheibe 183]

27 minutes ago, gromvoiny said:

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

My earnings in AB are twice as high as in SB and i haven't noticed a 100% Reward boost for EC with the new economy update.

The Rewards in EC are much worse compared to other modes and it' pretty much obvious for everyone who actually plays said mode.

[Lieutenant_Camel 622]

@gahab141

why NOT? Vehicle points and timers are more important for EC than the usefull actions reward system. both are incompatible .. so the usefull actions reward system has failed!

[LostF0X 1,969]

1 hour ago, gromvoiny said:

 

I'm just repeating what is already stated in our answers. 

 

"The guaranteed positive average balance of income and expenses is applied to vehicles below rank IV as well as premium vehicles (as intended for increased earnings)".

 

You have got to be kidding.

 

Below rank IV:

 

:

 

 

And about premium vehicles, well it's funny because repair cost of some premium have been raised. i.e. japanese sabre, german sea hawk mk100, shenyan F5. and other premiums have a cost/earning ratio pretty insufficient to allow you to end game with positive income, at least with the current system. So once more lot of us spent real money to get useless premium contents. 

 

Not to mention you're telling us that in a game with currently 7 ranks once surpassed the half there is no more gain. well more than that, since there is a huge lost in term of SL 

I'm a bit confused

[Hoernerice 584]

5 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

Not any vehicles, premiums are exception to that regardless of rank, in case you missed or misunderstood that part of the answer. 

 

 

So you are contradicting yourself. Also, the answer doesn't even mention premium account, which obviously improves your SL gains additionally. 

if you not top 1% player, you make -sl with premium account and plane in ec1-7.... i dont pay to earn more. as it is, i pay to loose less.

 

1 hour ago, gromvoiny said:

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

Not even close. i have to play other modes to have sl on my account and im playing piston planes only. im the exception? every rb and ab player, playn one year wt, has 10-100times more sl then a sim player. and the same amount of vehicles and expert crews. your data are faked by exploiters. you dont have implmented automatic systems against them since 2 years now. so dont tell me you can say on your data sheet, that this income is from a fair player and this from  botaccount user.

your data lieing to you. accept this and we maybe can find a solution.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Hoernerice

[_Shortik_ 17]

Maybe it helps if you know that you are arguing with propably over 1000 people (judging by the votes on the community letters), with not even one saying that the current economy system is good...

 

How can you say that everything is normal and fair?

 

 

[TaumelScheibe 183]

57 minutes ago, Hoernerice said:

Not even close. i have to play other modes to have sl on my account and im playing piston planes only. im the exception? every rb and ab player, playn one year wt, has 10-100times more sl then a sim player.

I can confirm this 100%.

When i was playing SB EC only my SL balance always hovered between 300k and 1M SL.

My absolute record was 4M and that was only possible because i buy planes only once a year during the 50% November sale.

 

Last year i started to play a little bit of Air AB and now i'm sitting at a comfortable 8-10M SL.

There is definitely a huge Reward difference between AAB and SB EC.

[Bloodlet 408]

6 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

Not any vehicles, premiums are exception to that regardless of rank, in case you missed or misunderstood that part of the answer. 

 

 

So you are contradicting yourself. Also, the answer doesn't even mention premium account, which obviously improves your SL gains additionally. 

lol no genius. You just confirmed what I said.

[Snake509 762]

I'd like to see a bit of different balancing in Air EC...we should take into account aircraft equipment and performance solely in the borderline BR ranges.  

 

If an aircraft has higher than AIM-9B equivalents or is capable of supersonic speeds, it should be 9.7 base.  Likewise if it's transonic and has AIM-9B's it belongs at 9.3.

[AbyssWanderer 41]

I just don't understand how is this normal? I understand that I joined late and 3 frags is not a lot at all, but the fact that I still went negative SL without even getting shot once is just beyond me...

25 minutes of gameplay where I actively was looking for enemy jets and engage as soon as I see one only gave me 2/3 of the spawn cost in SL. And yeah, that is with the premium account.

 

[DrJebus 42]

6 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

Again, what we have been stating here and in other threads, with numerous examples, is *no, they are not*. 

 

There is something wrong with your statistics. The most likely cause is abusers/zombers/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. Please address all the examples we've posted over the past weeks of EC players doing exceptionally well and earning about 50k over the course of 3 hours. That is *not* in alignment with the earnings player of the same tier, in the same planes, get in 3 hours of any other game mode. 

[BombingFritz 78]

7 hours ago, gromvoiny said:

 

They are now, that was one of the reasons for changes, again, like stated in the answers.

 

2 hours ago, AbyssWanderer said:

I just don't understand how is this normal? I understand that I joined late and 3 frags is not a lot at all, but the fact that I still went negative SL without even getting shot once is just beyond me...

25 minutes of gameplay where I actively was looking for enemy jets and engage as soon as I see one only gave me 2/3 of the spawn cost in SL. And yeah, that is with the premium account.

 

 

 

 

 

As @Hoernerice and @gromvoiny correctly pointed out, these changes work as intended and the intention is to make SB players earn much less than before. The only number they are looking at for this is the global average SL income per game time. Keep in mind, they include all account activity into those numbers. That is: normal players + farmers. If farmers farm more, all normal SB players have to earn less in order to compensate. There is no use in detailing your income on different gaming sessions to them, as they only look at the global numbers for game mechanic changes (and vehicle totals for repair cost changes etc). When their global average shows that SB is cranking out a lot of SL per game time, they will react. That's how easy it is.

 

As SL farming is almost exclusively SB based and Gaijin (for one or another reason)is not able to stop this, it is not surprising that they perceived SL income to be too high in SB - on average. So they drastically lowered it - on average. This just means that you have to pay the price for all those bots and farmers. So if farming is too profitable, you just have to lose SL for an hour of positive k/d gameplay without dying. And by the looks of it, the introduced changes (free spawning of whichever farming vehicle is the most beneficial) will probably not discourage farmers. EC will probably drain even further, keeping almost everybody who doesn't farm out of it. Which means they will probably reduce SL income and increase spawn costs even further until there are only farmers left and they can shut down or demonetize EC completely because it will have become nothing but a farming tool. And to be honest, i'd rather see it demonetized (stripped of all XP/SL benefits and costs) than how it plays out right now, as normal gameplay holds a big risk of just losing a fair amount of SL.

 

A side note here: As EC is excluded from the Game Pass and will be excluded from the summer event, "normal" player numbers are already very low and will dwindle even more, especially as more casual (and thus lower SL earning players) are actively funneled away from SB. Which will increase the percentage of the farmers and thus the average income even more. The weather in front of us doesn't look to bright.

 

PS: I wonder if they took the missing battle pass etc. income for SB players into account at all when coming up with their global averages, as - of course - for the casual player they make up a decent share of their achievable income while being almost completely irrelevant to the farmers.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by BombingFritz

[SnoopyBlack 74]

On 8/2/2021 at 5:10 PM, onebullet95SPAIN said:

Thanks for doing something that the community "asked"..... altho when we asked about P51H to 6.7...... it wasnt that fast, we're still waiting. Oh but you moved F7F to 6.7, nice thanks. Game wasn't balanced but now with no SP and no timers, MB5, P51H, 190A1 in EC2, F4U-1D will balance the games by killing new pilots in inferior planes. Nice.

 

When i was a kid and i asked my mother if i could do something bad she said NO! because she knew it was a bad idea. If community wants something bad, you say YES! great move. 

 

Economy is awful, balance (fun for both teams NOT just one!) was the last "acceptable" reason to play WT...

People will JUST fly meta planes and ohhh bless those who only have 9.7 and have to face Phantoms/MiG21bis..... thats what we asked for, yes. Human is the only animal who falls in the same hole twice! Maybe thats why some asked for these changes. One thing is sure: If you dont fly only 11.0, allied planes in EC3-4-6, if you have a bit of empathy for others and fly EVERYDAY every single NATION! You cant agree with this!

 

Dev's ideas for balancing the game by using the data from player's performance was killing Sim, balancing the game with economy is a super bad idea but now applying such a change (No SP or Timers) without applying BR changes first is GOING to Kill Sim!

 

I still love Sim but War Thunder is a game and a game should be balanced to be fun..... this is not balanced, this is not fun! 

 

Lost completely my faith in devs til the point i think this message is just a waste of time. Nice you read all but would be even nicer you use common sense to apply changes like these.

 

NOT everybody is able to afford to pay 44k and stay alive in the plane for more than 15 minutes! 

I Agree!!! I don't understand why G. wants to break it on purpose

[Yooski 21]

I have paid for premium continuously over the past year, and have spent over £250 on jets for myself and my brother so we can fly.

The current economy is absolutely killing this game mode off and I wont be spending anything more on this (premium or new jets) until I can at least break even on a sim game. 

I had been eyeying up the american harrier but with how SB is currently, its just not worth me investing anymore.

 

I am a relatively good pilot. 

I bomb, I kill other players, I attack convoys.

I come out of every game either just breaking even - 3000-15000SL up, or at a signifcant loss. 
This is for HOURS of play. Not one quick RB or arcade. 

I want to be able to afford new jets. I want to be able to research and spade my aircraft.

This is completely unworkable as is currently and you will be losing customers.

 

My only two cents having played the past few days are:

repair costs are crippling at high levels - please consider reducing them or removing them completely and owing the amount of income generated.

SP should really return to avoid phantom spam at top BR and harrer/yak spam at BR 8-9.3

I invested in VR to play this game in SB aircraft. I am seriously considering taking my game time elsewhere if this continues as is.

First forum post. I wouldnt normally go into games forums to get involved. I login, I fly, I buy. Please gaijin sort it out. 

 

[SnoopyBlack 74]

GAIJIN !!!!

 

useful action failed !!!!

Do it again as it was!

 

Instead of doing stuff like that Better activate EAC in Sim EC again!