An open letter to Gaijin, from the Warthunder Sim Community

[ItalianHitman 1,288]

1+

[Smin1080p 60,200]

26 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

Yes, rewards are similar, we get 50k and RB get say 60k but you know where the difference is? they do it in 15mins and we need 2hrs or more

 

The rewards per hour are roughly equal now in all modes:

 

Quote

• in AB 94500 SL/h
• in RB 81648 SL/h
• in SB 85284 SL/h

In AB reward is higher because the unit is more efficient in this mode. At the same time, it spends on repairs per hour significantly higher than in RB and SB.

As shared here: 

 

Its possible for some players to exceed that and earn more than the average in RB, but thats also possible in SB.

 

A very good example of a match in RB being used to compare against an average match in SB is not a good comparison at all. These are not the average matches of what people really achieve. The average per mode is almost aligned per hour. Not per match.

 

Its also worth noting that all modes have different averages for what players achieve in battle. 

[_Jupiter 29]

3 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

A very good example of a match in RB being used to compare against an average match in SB is not a good comparison at all. Its also worth noting that all modes have different averages for what players achieve in battle.

That is simply not true. Plz check this

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.warthunder.ru%2Findex.php%3F%2Ftopic%2F309613-aviatsionnoe-protivostoyanie-proizoshla-chudovishchnaya-oshibka%2F%26do%3DfindComment%26comment%3D8539551

 

I know, it is on russian, but google translate affords you to get overall message of this post

Edited July 27, 2021 by _Jupiter

[sergeidart 2]

Is it average or median? Do you count with repair or without it?

[Smin1080p 60,200]

8 minutes ago, _Jupiter said:

That is simply not true. Plz check this

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.warthunder.ru%2Findex.php%3F%2Ftopic%2F309613-aviatsionnoe-protivostoyanie-proizoshla-chudovishchnaya-oshibka%2F%26do%3DfindComment%26comment%3D8539551

 

I know, it is on russian, but google translate affords you to get overall message of this post

 

As I said above, this is once again comparing two personal matches in different modes that have different averages. That does not mean the average per hour is different. The changes were done taking into account the overall averages. Not just personal examples.

 

Comparing a closer to average sim game vs an above average RB game is not equal. Because someone can exceed the average in one mode, does not mean the other mode is underperforming, it means the averages are different and they performed worse in one mode and better in the other. 

 

We continue to monitor both the stats and feedback, but this is not a good example. 

[ItalianHitman 1,288]

5 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Its possible for some players to exceed that and earn more than the average in RB, but thats also possible in SB.

By how much?
You have said yourself before, that you adjust the activity formula so that the average player gets 80% activity. 
So as the reward is proportional to activity in the new system, a top player can at best get 20% more reward than the average player ...

Furthermore, even though -according to your statistics- the rewards are similar in all game modes, do you take into account that the repair costs are much higher in SB? and the fact that you pay them upfront and you won't get any refunds even after landing and exiting the vehicle? 

Does your statistics also take achievements into account? in RB/AB you can obtain the achievements a lot more frequently, because the matches last only a fraction of what EC matches last, and some achievements can only be obtained once per battle ...

[アドミラル-葛城ミサト 2]

12 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

The rewards per hour are roughly equal now in all modes:

 

 

As shared here: 

 

Its possible for some players to exceed that and earn more than the average in RB, but thats also possible in SB.

 

A very good example of a match in RB being used to compare against an average match in SB is not a good comparison at all. Its also worth noting that all modes have different averages for what players achieve in battle.

 

4 minutes ago, sergeidart said:

Is it average or median? Do you count with repair or without it?

Answer please

[Hoernerice 584]

Hoernerice clan HELD. I sign this in my name and on behalf of my clan members

[_Jupiter 29]

7 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Comparing a closer to average sim game vs an above average RB game is not equal

Are you considering related match in EC with 13/2 as average both with tank RB 5/0 above average?!

 

7 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

comparing two personal matches in different modes that have different averages

So take plz a one more minute to explain us, why in more complicated and demandable to player's skill mode we getting MUCH less rewarded? What the point is?

Edited July 27, 2021 by _Jupiter

[AWACS_Thunderhea 613]

4 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

A very good example of a match in RB being used to compare against an average match in SB is not a good comparison at all.

We have dozens of screenshots of the most diverse SB game results. I myself have more than a hundred of them. A lot of them were posted on the feedback topics. 
Were they jall just summarily ignored? This is a slap in the face. 

 

8 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

The rewards per hour are roughly equal now in all modes

According to what statistics? How were they collected? Did they exclude Ground Simulator battles, which has completely different earnings? Did it take into account Player Created rooms, which are used 24/7 to exploit the game? Statistics are broken, we've been telling Gaijin this for the last fifty updates.

[[email protected] 120]

My IGN is uzunelendil, I am an officer of BHT, and I endorse this message. 

By the way, dear Gaijin why you increased the repair costs again?
 

[przybysz86 10,309]

1 minute ago, Smin1080p said:

 

The rewards per hour are roughly equal now in all modes:

 

As shared here: 

 

Its possible for some players to exceed that and earn more than the average in RB, but thats also possible in SB.

 

A very good example of a match in RB being used to compare against an average match in SB is not a good comparison at all. Its also worth noting that all modes have different averages for what players achieve in battle.

I am fully aware that this is how it should work in theory but sadly our tests as show here:

does not confirm that.

Very similar feedback was provided during previous phases too. We have almost ideally average game where someone take a plane get 2 kills in it and die, then take next plane get 2 kills in it die and so on.
This result is very reasonable for average sim player with equally more people getting better and worse ones.

Now, as you know we have 20% reward withheld from us until we land so this is not perfect simulation. if player indeed died in each case, his rewards would've been 20% smaller.
But, for now, let's assume he landed and got bombed on AF or just decided that he have enough spawn point so there is no reason to fly bad plane when everyone fly better ones and he changed to higher BR too.

Fact is that in the end our "average player" got 25k for losing battle of 40mins. Bad? maybe but not the end of the world... until you check the actual reward which is not 25k but 8k

and BTW - I made mistake last time because I only multiplied final result by 1.33 to simulate 50% WR. I should've multiplied whole and then subtract spawn cos.
If I do so then our hear with 26k reward will earn around 35k-18k = 17k for 40mins which translates to 25.5k per hour.

Unfortunately that's with premium account so normal player will have to divide this number by 1.5 which gives 17k/hr of an average match. This still means over 10hrs of game play (assuming 50% WR) on rank III to get one plane on rank IV

Maybe my math is wrong - I'd be happy to get corrected as I even now found a mistake I made.
Maybe some factor is not taken into account
-For example in SB we pay for spawn regardless if we die or not while every other mode only pays if they die
-we don't have any sort of orders, battle pass, wagers, etc
-we don't have 10 free respawns that normally allow RB and AB players to not lose money in the very initial phase of flying totally stock plane
-we  get our achievements not every 7-15mins of game but every 2-3hrs and many of them are one-timers (aka you can't win more than one per game)
-same is true for post-battle lootboxes that can give you SL from time to time.
-we don't get free repairs from backups like people in AB (yes in RB they don't work too to the best of my knowledge)
-even our boosters are broken for years now since they work over server time so they end at exact 30/60/90min mark. that's fine if you join at 31mark and have whole 29mins left but not so much if you join at 29min mark and your booster expire after 1 min.
additionally we can only activate boosters before entering to the game and most of them last only one period which is at best 30min. It's understandable why we can't activate them mid-battle but this means that if we spend 2hrs in game, 1.5hr of that (or more) is spent w/o boosters that we normally might have activated.

Is any of those factors  key? I don't know. I don't see stats you see. Perhaps it's neither one of them but combination of couple or even all. Maybe it something we are not aware of as players.
Maybe stats that are used to determine median are skewed by countless months (years now?) of farming lobbies used to abuse the system by people later selling account or offering to boost someone else's account for cash.

I know of at least few exploits that are used but I won't openly discuss them here as I don't believe it's right thing to do (not to mention most likely against forum rules)
Have we informed you about it? of course - for months. problem of people farming alt accounts and abusing custom games with very unbalanced nation setups is years old already

But as I said, I don't think problem is any single point from above but I also think that problem is more general and not about if plane X should earn 500 or 550 SL/min

 

[tangerine_flugel 457]

5 minutes ago, AWACS_Thunderhea said:

According to what statistics? How were they collected? Did they exclude Ground Simulator battles, which has completely different earnings? Did it take into account Player Created rooms, which are used 24/7 to exploit the game? Statistics are broken, we've been telling Gaijin this for the last fifty updates.

In addition, does it account for the fact that SB has the highest repair costs in the game, and that SBEC is also the only game mode in which you have to pay up front to spawn. This means that even when you don't die, you still have to pay for respawn costs, making it harder to turn a profit in the first place.

[NebeI 183]

35 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

As I said above, this is once again comparing two personal matches in different modes that have different averages. That does not mean the average per hour is different. The changes were done taking into account the overall averages. Not just personal examples.

 

Comparing a closer to average sim game vs an above average RB game is not equal. Because someone can exceed the average in one mode, does not mean the other mode is underperforming, it means the averages are different and they performed worse in one mode and better in the other. 

 

We continue to monitor both the stats and feedback, but this is not a good example. 

 

Phantom F-4EJ has 65k SL respawn price. Take a note, it is not a repair cost, but a price to respawn in it, which you pay when you choose the plane in EC, and never get back even if this plane is returned to AF or is alive in the air by the end of session.

From your own average numbers you posted above you need to survive for like 45 minutes to JUST break even and compensate for spawn cost. And you need to be active during this time period, i.e. take part in fights. Believe me, you will NOT survive 45 imuntes of fighting in F-4EJ 9 times out of 10. Most people will die every time within 10-15 minutes of flying it and hence go negative SL even with premiun account and even with victory. 

11.0 plane costs 1kk by itself, 300k for the crew, somewhere close to 700k in modules and 1kk more if you want an expert crew (which is very much advised considering G-forces jets endure). Try to open and spade one top tier jet by itself in EC7 @Smin1080p and you will see there is a problem. Just try to play your game (maybe not you specifically, but at least someone). 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by NebeI

[sergeidart 2]

9 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

As I said above, this is once again comparing two personal matches in different modes that have different averages. That does not mean the average per hour is different. The changes were done taking into account the overall averages. Not just personal examples.

 

Comparing a closer to average sim game vs an above average RB game is not equal. Because someone can exceed the average in one mode, does not mean the other mode is underperforming, it means the averages are different and they performed worse in one mode and better in the other. 

 

We continue to monitor both the stats and feedback, but this is not a good example. 

 

4 minutes ago, sergeidart said:

Is it average or median? Do you count with repair or without it?

 

Ok, I should explain question above If you are using average instead of median you will get higher number than real player could get.
You should use median number insted: it's revenue of average player, not sum of revenues divided by numbers of players. 

Also you could check numbers using 25 and 75 quantile. It's for research somehow worst and best players. 

 

And try to not use revenue. Cause you will not research flow of economy. It's not include repair price and other expenses. Profit after all expences in the other hand...

[onebullet95 343]

a game i just got right now, 1 minute ago.....yes not even 80k....how many kills i need to make at least 100k per game @Smin1080p?

[nuB_3aBoq 0]

My ING is nuB_3aBoq , i am member of [VFA54] , and i endorse this messag e.

[Defbond 534]

24 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

As I said above, this is once again comparing two personal matches in different modes that have different averages. That does not mean the average per hour is different. The changes were done taking into account the overall averages. Not just personal examples.

 

Comparing a closer to average sim game vs an above average RB game is not equal. Because someone can exceed the average in one mode, does not mean the other mode is underperforming, it means the averages are different and they performed worse in one mode and better in the other. 

 

We continue to monitor both the stats and feedback, but this is not a good example. 

With all due respect but you are gaslighting an entire community who came here to post about the dysfunctional economy in SB. I have spent the past 3 days testing and looking at rewards screens from every player I could possibly find. It's very clear that SB rewards in EC are much lower than in RB for similar actions and time spent in battle. Furthermore, rewards have been reduced since the first economy update when compared to the old system, and now after todays update rewards have been further reduced in some cases due to increased repair costs. 
 

There seems to be a breakdown in communication between the ideas being expressed by the SB community and Gaijin staff. Could we talk to someone who actually plays sim because I don't think you should be making such affirmations based on your time in SB, which is mostly in tanks. 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Defbond

[RandaPed 0]

Defbond hit the nail on the head with this, definitely feels like a disconnect. Though at least sim *is* actually getting changes. Maybe one day it will go right

[Smin1080p 60,200]

35 minutes ago, sudo__su said:

Furthermore, even though -according to your statistics- the rewards are similar in all game modes, do you take into account that the repair costs are much higher in SB? and the fact that you pay them upfront and you won't get any refunds even after landing and exiting the vehicle? 

 

Repair costs are factored into account of the final profit. Otherwise repair costs would be 2-3 times higher in SB.

[przybysz86 10,309]

@Smin1080p I do believe that this topic is too complex for us to solve it today.

Do you agree that it would be best to resume it tomorrow?
All we ask for now is that you forward our concerns to devs and I hope that this letter will show you that we who had spoken loudly in the past are more than just proverbial "vocal minority".

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by przybysz86

[Smin1080p 60,200]

32 minutes ago, Defbond said:

Could we talk to someone who actually plays sim because I don't think you should be making such affirmations based on your time in SB, which is mostly in tanks. 

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with me as a player. This information in my answers comes directly from the developers. Its not my job role to present my own personal experience in any capacity, but perhaps you misunderstood that. My stats or SB playtime have 0 relation or relevance here. 

 

My affirmations come directly from the developers as thats my job to relay information. Not present my personal opinion or game experience. I am here to collect feedback and relay the answers. 

[Corsair4 76]

So I finally tested new economy. It's like minus 80k per 1,5 hour

[Smin1080p 60,200]

10 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

@Smin1080p I do believe that this topic is too complex for us to solve it today.

Do you agree that it would be best to resume it tomorrow?
All we ask for now is that you forward our concerns to devs and I hope that this letter will show you that we who had spoken loudly in the past are more than just proverbial "vocal minority".

 

 

Concerns have and are being raised as I have been relaying you the answers. 

[someTwo 2]

My IGN is someTwo, and as a new SB player and member of -GLIDE- I can confirm only from my personal experience that SB, which was striking 2 years ago because of it’s monetary reward for those, who are ready to struggle with their controls, has lost most of it’s appeal. And I also endorse this message.