Rewards for useful actions in the aviation SB mode

Juva96 · July 16, 2021

I think the reward would be better if worked like this:

-If you crashed, J-out or killed by AF AAA it's 50% reward

-If you got shoot down it's 100% reward

-If landed, rearmed and refueled it's 120% reward.

The activity can also be scraped and pay the players only by what they did. Only zombers are getting a high activity right now, fighters are having a hard time, even more that in EC6 we have EC7 mission planes, making 90% of it nearly impossible to accomplish.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Juva96

U2711AZ · July 16, 2021

On 15/07/2021 at 12:42, Stona said:

Rewards for useful actions in the aviation SB mode

The reward system for useful actions in battle operates as follows: every 15 minutes, scoring occurs for useful action for the specific aircraft, as well as after aircraft loss, or by the mission end. These are the same points that are displayed in the combat statistics window and in which players are sorted. The amount of points scored are reduced to the period of time they were scored, and the player’s activity in battle is calculated for a given period of time with the new activity formula. Resulting activity is multiplied by the maximum reward for useful actions (see the vehicle card) for a given period of time.

For example, in the La-9 fighter with a maximum reward for useful actions equal to 816 SL per minute, the total reward for a 15 minute period with an activity of 90% will be 816 * 15 * 0.9 = 11.016 SL. If you didn’t play for the 15 minutes and were shot down after 10 minutes with the same activity level, the formula will be 816 * 10 * 0.9 = 7.344 SL. The Silver Lion multiplier doesn't affect the resulting reward for useful actions.

Thus, to get the maximum reward, you have to play as long as you can, keeping the maximum income level. The scoring of points for simply staying near enemies for this reward system will be disabled.

Changes will also slightly affect the mechanics of the deferred reward when landing at an airfield - now the deferred part of the reward that is issued after a successful return to the airfield will be 20% instead of 50%.

Repair costs for aviation in the upcoming economy update will be preliminary recalculated taking into account this reward system. At the same time, the 50% discount on revival from the repair price in this mode will be removed and the final reward in Silver Lions will be increased by 30%.

To familiarize yourself with the new reward system, you can take part in special events (check the “Events and tournaments” tab in the hangar), which will be available from July 15th (15:00 GMT) until July 19th (12:00 GMT), where if you find any issues, please let us know about them in this thread.

Testing might be stopped ahead of schedule for technical reasons.

What I really appreciate in this, is the disabled "increasing point radar spotting", to me a MUST on a ww2 sim game.

Edited July 16, 2021 by U2711AZ

TimeFaker · July 16, 2021

1 minute ago, U2711AZ said:

What I really appreciate in this, is the disabled "increasing point radar spotting", to me a MUST on a ww2 sim game.

what do u mean warthunder is not abt ww2 anymore its abour ww2 and jets now

s9723 · July 16, 2021

1 hour ago, Juva96 said:

I think the reward would be better if worked like this:

-If you crashed or J-out it's 50% reward

-If you got shoot down it's 100% reward

-If landed, rearmed and refueled it's 120% reward.

I don't think that would help. Bombers can fly directly into AF AAA, get shot down & get 100% reward.

Juva96 · July 16, 2021

6 minutes ago, s9723 said:

I don't think that would help. Bombers can fly directly into AF AAA, get shot down & get 100% reward.

Put the AF AAA into the crashed or J-out.

Stona · July 16, 2021

On 15/07/2021 at 14:41, Siggesvag said:

in SB 85284 SL/h

Is that after or before respawn cost? Yes you earn more in sim in the battle results page but then when you look at the real result with spawn cost it is often very much lower total SL or even negative..

7 hours ago, przybysz86 said:

TL/DR
Does La-9 earn on avg 85k minus 17k (spawn/repair cost in new system - cost we don't get back and have to pay no matter what) aka 68k or does it earn 85k on avg after subtracting 17k aka it normally earns 102k

Clarification from Devs:

85K excluding respawn cost

But you can't deduct these costs directly from 85K, because you don't respawn every 15 minutes (after which you get 85K)

AWACS_Thunderhea · July 16, 2021

Spoiler

3 hours ago, The_Tea_Rex said:

Ok, so the rewards for the EC2 lobby seem bad. Really, really bad. Here are some screenshots that people have kindly sent to me on discord. Look at the rewards compared to time played, and look at how low the activity percentage is...

I'm not sure if this is intentional, or an error, but if its intentional then all I can say is RIP to EC1 - EC4.

Another point I want to raise is that this new system would make it "profitable" again to do suicide bombing missions, especially with the repair costs going down on aircraft like the A2D and the A7D and now getting 80% of credit before landing.

I'm not saying the 80% credit is a bad thing, but it will encourage this sort of behavior, which will then affect the results, which will then cause unneccessary nerfs to the general economy of the game mode (getting deja vu from 2015, 2018 and 2020...)

Good lord... 43066 Silver Lions after two and a half hours??? This can't be right. And that's not taking into account the SL he lost in game.
This man even managed to get 13 kills and "fighters nightmare" award, he should at least have gotten minimally decent rewards. And 16839 RP? Yikes...
This is scary.

FouManchou · July 16, 2021

42 minutes ago, Stona said:

Clarification from Devs:

85K excluding respawn cost

But you can't deduct these costs directly from 85K, because you don't respawn every 15 minutes (after which you get 85K)

Is that calculated for SB EC exclusively, or does that include combined battles SB (and Operations)?

I.e : Are rewards calculated as a whole over the three SB gamemodes (not even taking into account that aircraft don't perform the same depending on the Event-Tier they're playing in) or on an individual gamemode basis?

Getting an official answer about this would certainly put to rest some "doubts" many have expressed over the repair costs (and reward levels) of several aircraft, especially high end Jets.

Is the "Median" the median of A) the whole battle ; B) the player's team ; C) all the players of a given aircraft ?

In the C case, it would be especially bad for rare or off-meta aircraft because the smaller population makes it more likely to have a high median, meaning that even a small drop in score-over-time would lead to a big drop in activity.

In cases A and B, it could favour farming games with bots (or poor players) since their activity will be extremely low, so it would be very easy to be above the median ; at the same time, it should reduce rewards for outstanding performance.
It would also mean that small games get wildly affected by which players take part ; if many good players take part in the same game (which happens a lot with squadrons) they can raise the median very high, reducing rewards for everyone.

In case A and B, is the median calculated over the whole duration of the battle? for every 15 minutes of activity calculation? For every 15 minutes of battle time?

What does the curve for activity look like?

We know median score = 80% activity by design, but what do you need to get to 90% or 100% ? How much do you need to do to get to 50%?

Is the activity based on a set deviation from the median (e.g. median +50% = 90% activity)? ; on relative position (e.g top 10% = 100% activity ; 10-20% = 92%, etc.)?

przybysz86 · July 16, 2021

1 hour ago, Stona said:

Clarification from Devs:

85K excluding respawn cost

But you can't deduct these costs directly from 85K, because you don't respawn every 15 minutes (after which you get 85K)

hold on:

On 15/07/2021 at 14:00, Stona said:

At the moment, the average reward for all players for it is:

in AB 94500 SL/h

in RB 81648 SL/h

in SB 85284 SL/h

In AB reward is higher because the unit is more efficient in this mode. At the same time, it spends on repairs per hour significantly higher than in RB and SB.

we moved from 85k/hr to 85/15min? that escalated quickly but I like where this is going

Bu assuming that earlier message is correct and it's 85/hr then I can tell you that it's almost impossible to get more than 1hr out of 1spawn of La-9 because first you have to grind your spawn points to even be able to fly it (that's how EC works these days).

usually decent pilot need 15-30mins to get enough SPc and since EC tames lasting much more than 1.5hrs are not that common, I think we can assume that flying more than 1hr in La-9 in one mission is rarity (won't say it never happens but it's not very common).

In which case we are back to square one and we can assume that majority of players won't fly La-9 for more than 1 hr because they will either die or game will end.
I think assumption that one can fly more than one 85k "tick" is a bit of a stretch when we're talking averages and not top 10% of players.

But of course if we're talking 85k/15min then I take all back. I'll shut up and enjoy our new reality

Bloodlet · July 16, 2021

4 hours ago, TaumelScheibe said:

I had a similar experience even in the EC6 event, i had plenty of kills but most of those happened in a short period of time, that might be the problem.

The majority of the enemy team left early, so there were a lot of 15min Battle intervals without "useful activity".

It seems that your Activity goes down significantly if you have intervals without action.

Agreed and I think it unduly affects fighters most. Playing a fighter means you have to search the map for moving targets especially if there is no enemy surveillance aircraft, air superiority event or enemy AI Bombers/Attackers out there with an indicator of location. Generally speaking bomb and ground targets don't move and don't fight back so bombers/attackers always have something to do while fighters have to hunt for targets; and if they happen to get shot down without doing damage they get no points at all since there are no proximity rewards. Due to the nature of being in a fighter, if you don't find a target or maybe do and either don't secure a kill (i.e. they run to their airfield) or die in the process then there is a good chance you get no "useful activity" for that time frame and wasted your time.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Bloodlet

Juva96 · July 16, 2021

13 minutes ago, Bloodlet said:

Agreed and I think it unduly affects fighters most. Playing a fighter means you have to search the map for moving targets especially if there is no enemy surveillance aircraft, air superiority event or enemy AI Bombers/Attackers out there with an indicator of location. Generally speaking bomb and ground targets don't move and don't fight back so bombers/attackers always have something to do while fighters have to hunt for targets; and if they happen to get shot down without doing damage they get no points at all since there are no proximity rewards. Due to the nature of being in a fighter, if you don't find a target or maybe do and either don't secure a kill (i.e. they run to their airfield) or die in the process then there is a good chance you get no "useful activity" for that time frame and wasted your time.

I got this problem too, but sometimes I get a mission to intercept a group of Yak-38M or other EC7 planes that nobody can get, because they fly outside the map or are too fast for EC6 planes.

Beside the bug, getting a reward for making the enemy return to airfield should be in game, like a neutralization reward.

tdesmo · July 16, 2021

I noticed that if I land and J out to change my weapon load out I get charged spawn points again for the same aircraft, is this a new thing? I don't remember it being like that before or maybe I didn't notice

przybysz86 · July 16, 2021

1 minute ago, tdesmo said:

I noticed that if I land and J out to change my weapon load out I get charged spawn points again for the same aircraft, is this a new thing?

if by new you mean less than 2-3 years old, then yes

DrJebus · July 16, 2021

9 hours ago, The_Tea_Rex said:

Ok, so the rewards for the EC2 lobby seem bad. Really, really bad. Here are some screenshots that people have kindly sent to me on discord. Look at the rewards compared to time played, and look at how low the activity percentage is...

I'm not sure if this is intentional, or an error, but if its intentional then all I can say is RIP to EC1 - EC4.

Another point I want to raise is that this new system would make it "profitable" again to do suicide bombing missions, especially with the repair costs going down on aircraft like the A2D and the A7D and now getting 80% of credit before landing.

I'm not saying the 80% credit is a bad thing, but it will encourage this sort of behavior, which will then affect the results, which will then cause unneccessary nerfs to the general economy of the game mode (getting deja vu from 2015, 2018 and 2020...)

Looking at those numbers, I don't get where the '85k/hour' thing is coming from. That's about 45k in 2.5 hours... so like what... 18k/hour. Not factoring in respawn costs, which although lower at that tier are not nothing. Compare that to RB and you can make 18k in 15 minutes on a poor game.

Kinda getting the feeling that the 'median 80% scoring player' being used to generate the 85k/hour number is a zomber.

s9723 · July 16, 2021

This is a EC2 match with new system. I flew P-40 for 1hr 50min and got 4 player kills/ 1 AI kills / 6 ground kills/ 37% activity. The match became quite empty due to all enemy players bailing out.

This is a regular EC2 match. I flew P-40 for 30 mins and got 3 player kills/ 1 AI kill / 1 assist / 89% activity.

The overall reward seems to be worse with the new system.

HOPPING_PONY · July 16, 2021

9 hours ago, Stona said:

Clarification from Devs:

85K excluding respawn cost

But you can't deduct these costs directly from 85K, because you don't respawn every 15 minutes (after which you get 85K)

Nice rewards you've got here, guys.

Spoiler

My "reward" for this 1.5hr gameplay after repairs:

Edited July 16, 2021 by HOPPING_PONY

Mursac · July 16, 2021

Rewards are quantitatively worse. I flew two matches earlier in the American premium Ki-43.

The first was a sim battle. I scored three aerial victories against player flown aircraft and returned to base safely before leaving the match. I got 13,825 Silver Lions, with 92% battle activity (how, I don't know - had a similar match yesterday with two kills and got 69%). There were no values listed for Air Targets Destroyed, Critical Hits, Hits, Landings, or Takeoffs.

The second match was a realistic battle for comparison. I only shot down a single aircraft and destroyed a single halftrack. I earned 15,204 Silver Lions, with 82% battle activity.

SIM: Three air kills with no death = 13,825 SL

RB: One kill and halftrack = 15,204 SL

I'm trying to post screenshots for proof, but it's giving me a max upload size of 38 kilobytes. What's up with that?

Also, have scores for "Air Targets Destroyed, Critical Hits, Hits, Landings, and Takeoffs" been disabled for testing? Or is this the planned final state?

tdesmo · July 16, 2021

something is wrong the the EC2 match, all the players on the opposite team left the match and the match kept on going, eventually my team lost because the other team finished with more points even though there were not players or AI left.

AWACS_Thunderhea · July 16, 2021

52 minutes ago, Mursac said:

Also, have scores for "Air Targets Destroyed, Critical Hits, Hits, Landings, and Takeoffs" been disabled for testing? Or is this the planned final state?

Yes. There are no rewards for individual actions. Their proposal is to reward your time spent in battle doing useful activity (critical hits, hits, kills, bombings, etc), instead of each and every action per se.

I thought that enough of us had already expressed our disapproval of such system in the topic below, months ago:

HOPPING_PONY · July 16, 2021

@Stona

Am I too bad compared to avg player, or what?

With this economy model rip SB mode.

Stats from 1.5hrs in EC2-test under spoiler:

Spoiler

New system is very bad for number of reasons, for example if player trades 1:1 or even 5:1 in furball he loses plane but gains nothing for kill. It should not work that way.

Edited July 17, 2021 by HOPPING_PONY

The_Tea_Rex · July 17, 2021

Yeah after flying several of these test games I find the reward unacceptable. If this goes live I will 100% uninstall the game because this would be a death sentence to the sim mode.

Where did you find this magical 85,000SL/Hour number???? I've barely managed to get 50ksl for two hours. I could make 50ksl in a single air RB game over the course of 20 minutes, in fact, I do regularly because I am forced to play other game modes so that I can afford to play Sim.

AWACS_Thunderhea · July 17, 2021

On 15/07/2021 at 09:00, Stona said:

At the moment, the average reward for all players for it is:

in AB 94500 SL/h

in RB 81648 SL/h

in SB 85284 SL/h

TeaRex's comment sparked this question in my head: The 85K SL/h average in SB... where did it come from?
Did it come from ALL SB modes, including Ground Battles? That would be problematic, because rewards are much, much bettter in Ground Simulator Battles compared to Enduring Confrontation,.
Did it come from all Enduring Confrontation rooms, that is, official (game-created) lobbies and player created rooms mixed in? That would be problematic as well, due to the huge number of 'farming' rooms, which would (and do) skew the statistics.
Did it come from official game-created Enduring Confrontation lobbies only?

ItalianHitman · July 17, 2021

6 hours ago, HOPPING_PONY said:

New system is very bad for number of reasons, for example if player trades 1:1 or even 5:1 in furball he loses plane but gains nothing for kill. It should not work that way.

1+
Even in real life if you went alone against 6 enemies and killed 5 of them and got killed by the last one, they would look at your 5 kills, not your death. you would become a hero and receive medals.
Not rewarding players for kills just because they died is fundamentally flawed ...
This is not a looting game like tarkov where you have to survive to carry the loot back ...
All this new system does is to encourage people to be cowards and avoid dogfights -that can be fun even if risky- in fear of dying. This new system actively discourages PvP & action & fun ... which will make the game very boring.
With currently system, when you are out numbered in an EC match (Which happens VERY frequently) you can still attack the more numerous enemies, knowing that you WILL get killed, but can at least take down a few of them with you. but in the new system you won't get any rewards for that ... so why even bother ...

@Stona

Edited July 17, 2021 by sudo__su

AWACS_Thunderhea · July 17, 2021

Some data i'd like to share:

These are from an outstanding player doing the test EC mission. Huge amount of targets destroyed, crazy high score, zero deaths... You can tell that it was an action packed game.
Yet, rewards are... pitiful, to say the least. If that's what an outstanding player makes with >10.000 score, what will become of the average player with ~2000 score?

In comparison, we have a short match in Realistic Battles:

A short Simulator Battles Operations match (which is similar to how RB plays out), using the same vehicle:

You can start to catch a glimpse of the drama of Simulator economy.

Now, lets make some rough estimates here, using the new EC test game and the short Realistic Battle game:
In 14 minutes of RB, one could make almost as much SL as 95 minutes of SB.
In 95 minutes of RB, one could make 57K RP and 466.000 SL. This translates to 21K RP and 364.000 Silver Lions more than in Simulator Battles for the same timeframe.

And keep in mind:

B18B has better multipliers on every aspect.

So, playing SB often makes you feel like you're missing out... because you really are, actually.
And that's for an excellent player. What incentive would an average player have to keep playing Enduring Confrontation? What about new players, learning their ways into simulator? They would be scared away as soon as the results screen show up.

I don't know whether this economy overhaul is meant to solve the overall simulator economy problem or the abusers problem.
If it's the latter, i strongly believe this not to be the best strategy.

Kernow1346 · July 17, 2021

18 minutes ago, AWACS_Thunderhea said:

I don't know whether this economy overhaul is meant to solve the overall simulator economy problem or the abusers problem.
If it's the latter, i strongly believe this not to be the best strategy.

And if it’s the former it’s not the best strategy.

Rewards for useful actions in the aviation SB mode

Juva96 156

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

U2711AZ 347