Char 25 T Wrong Gun

[nxdefiant001 1,309]

# Description

 

The Char 25T was equipped with an (unspecified name) 90mm gun that fires the same ammunition as the M47 ammunition but at Vo = 930 m/s instead of around 850m/s

 

In game it is equipped with a the same 90mm as the ARL 44.

 

This would mean not only the gun is wrong but the ammunition selection as well.

Reminder that France had M47s at the same time the 25 t was experimented which would give the 25T access to the range of shell carried by those vehicles but at higher speed (Vo = 930 for the normally 850 range ammunition) (since the gun is compatible)

 

New shells for the  25T :

 

M318A1 (APBC)

M82 (APHECBC)

M304 (APCR)

M332 (APCR)

M431 (HEATFS)

M71A1 (HE)

M313 (Smoke)

 

# Source

 

Pierre Touzin's Les Véhicules Blindés Français 1945-1977

 

Chapter about the Batignolles Chatillon 25 T

 

"l'armement prévu est un canon de 90mm Vo 930 qui tire la même munition que les chars M47 et M48 américains. Au cours de l'expérimentation, in apparaît qu'un cannon de 90mm est insuffisant. Il faudrait un 105 à obus à charge creuse (obus G)

The planned armament is a 90mm Vo 930 (930 intial speed m/s) that fires the same ammunition as the american M47 and M48 tanks.

During the trials, it appeared the 90mm gun was insufficient. A 105mm gun with a shaped charge was needed (G shell)

 

Full text for Touzin

(Starts at Le char Batignolles Chatillon 25T)

 

Spoiler

(nothing worth of note here)

 

 

Next page

 

Translations of relevant sentences are in blue

 

I know it says AMX 30 in big but it is still about the Batignolles Chatillon 25t which was replaced by the AMX 30 hence why you see the AMX 30

As we can see the Batignolles Chatillon 25t  has

 

"l'armement prévu est un canon de 90mm Vo 930 qui tire la même munition que"

The planned armament is a 90mm Vo 930 (930 intial speed m/s) that fires the same ammunition as the ...

 

 

Les chars M47 et M48 américains. 

the american M47 and M48 tanks  [France operated M47s at the time of the trials]

 

Au cours de l'expérimentation, in apparaît qu'un cannon de 90mm est insuffisant. Il faudrait un 105 à obus à charge creuse (obus G)

During the trials, it appeared the 90mm gun was insufficient. A 105mm gun with a shaped charge was needed (G shell)

 

Pictures were provided by LeGrandSarrazin

 

Source 2

 

ComHArt Tome 9 Armement Gros Calibre

 

Page 119

 

The Char 25t is listed with a 930 m/s gun. However the data of the shell is not like the M47, this is probably due to conversion between pounds and kilos. The tank should still be able to fire the same ammunition as the 90mm M36 available in France as France used the M47.

 

Screenshot

Spoiler

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by nxdefiant001

[blockhaj 3,549]

Hello! Thank you for wanting to improve the game.

 

Could you supply images showing the full pages of the sources as well as the cover of the book.

 

Also what is source 2? ComHArt Tome 9 Armement Gros Calibre

React to this message when you have responded so i get a ping.

[nxdefiant001 1,309]

1 hour ago, blockhaj said:

Hello! Thank you for wanting to improve the game.

 

Could you supply images showing the full pages of the sources as well as the cover of the book.

 

Also what is source 2? ComHArt Tome 9 Armement Gros Calibre

React to this message when you have responded so i get a ping.

 

 

Pictures came from this book

Spoiler

 

 

Source 2 is this pdf file

https://www.irsem.fr/data/files/irsem/documents/document/file/1641/Ouvrage_TAUZIN_Tome_9_Armenent_gros_calibre.pdf

This was written for the CHEAr history division, which was a subdivision of the DGA, the french national armament agency.

Right now, the file is hosted by IRSEM, which is an Institute working under the French Army Department.

[blockhaj 3,549]

1 hour ago, nxdefiant001 said:

snip

Thank you.

 

I will go through what you have written and get back to you when i have the time.

[blockhaj 3,549]

Can you supply images showing the full pages of the book (page number specifically). Thank you.

React to this message when you have done so, so i get a ping.

[nxdefiant001 1,309]

52 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Can you supply images showing the full pages of the book (page number specifically). Thank you.

React to this message when you have done so, so i get a ping.

 

 

Page 61 to 65 (pictures by LeGrandSarrazin)

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blockhaj 3,549]

Thank you i will investigate this further. Btw what gun did the AMX M4 use?

[LeGrandSarrazin 725]

AMX M4 used the 90mm SA47:

 

That's pgs. 54-55 btw.

 

and pgs. 56-57:

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by LeGrandSarrazin

[blockhaj 3,549]

Does any images or information about the 25t cartridges exist? Did it fire the same cartridges as the m47 or did it use more powerful cartridges?

[nxdefiant001 1,309]

16 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Thank you i will investigate this further. Btw what gun did the AMX M4 use?

 

the Comhart document states the BatChat and AMXs had two different gun developements

Spoiler

 

which validates Touzin saying it had a different gun (in LeGrandSarrazin's answer)

 

We dont have info about the 47 ammunition but we can guess it is an evolution of the SA45 APCBC shells (i have a bug report about french shells missing ballistic caps on the APBC SA50 which also has APCBC, APCBC SA44 and APCBC SA45)

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by nxdefiant001

[blockhaj 3,549]

Some internet sources states that the 25t used the 90 mm F3 from the AMX-13-90. Is there some truth to this or is it fake news?

[LeGrandSarrazin 725]

3 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Some internet sources states that the 25t used the 90 mm F3 from the AMX-13-90. Is there some truth to this or is it fake news?

 

Our friend @Cedjoe seems to believe this is the case. I am not sure myself.

Or, at least an earlier development of the F3, if not the same one.

Edited May 15, 2021 by LeGrandSarrazin

[nxdefiant001 1,309]

2 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Some internet sources states that the 25t used the 90 mm F3 from the AMX-13-90. Is there some truth to this or is it fake news?

 

There is probably truth in it but Touzin states it is compatible with M47 ammunition whereas the F3 is not

 

As Sarrazin says probably an older variant of some kind

[blockhaj 3,549]

5 minutes ago, LeGrandSarrazin said:

 

Our friend @Cedjoe seems to believe this is the case. I am not sure myself.

Or, at least an earlier development of the F3, if not the same one.

I think it is a good idea to go through if this is the case or not before i bugreport. Are blueprints available for the 25t gun and the 90 mm F3?

1 minute ago, nxdefiant001 said:

 

There is probably truth in it but Touzin states it is compatible with M47 ammunition whereas the F3 is not

 

As Sarrazin says probably an older variant of some kind

It would be good if we could find images of the 25t ammunition to check it it used the same casing or a longer one to the 90 mm on the m47.

[LeGrandSarrazin 725]

I don't believe blueprints will be necessary, as the tank still exists, and is on open display at Saumur:

 

 

And the only blueprint I can come up with only shows the planned armament of 90mm Vo 1000:

 

But, according to Touzin:

 

"On pensa aussi à un 90mm Vo 1000, mais le poids du char devait passer à plus de 35t ce qui éliminait d'office le 25t."

or

"We also thought of a 90mm Vo 1000, but the weight of the tank had to increase to more than 35t which automatically eliminated the 25t."

 

So, the 25t seemingly never mounted the SA47, as it would have been hilariously overweight.

 

I'm still working on finding info on the ammo, but that's what I have for the moment.

[Cedjoe 5,459]

Yes I think the 25t’s gun was probably based on the SA45 and, being the first long HEAT-firing French-made 90mm I can think of, I’d say it’s development led to the CN 90 F3.

They look pretty similar, except for the AMX-13-90’s thermal sleeve and they seem to share a similar muzzle brake at least. I guess it could still be called CN 90 F3 even if it was an early prototype.

It’s also worth noting the OCC 60-62 ammo is comparable in performance to the M47’s HEAT-FS and might’ve been developped from it, possibly following the 25t’s development.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Cedjoe

[blockhaj 3,549]

React to this message when you have more replies that needs to be approved so i get a ping.

[LeGrandSarrazin 725]

Hello again.

 

Sorry it's been so long, but it's not easy to get info on French tanks of certain eras. While we are unable to come to anything 100% concrete at this moment as to the name of the gun used by the BatChat 25t, our friend @nxdefiant001 did recently purchase an issue of TnT Magazine that contains an article on the 25t. The relevant sections are here:

 

 

 

The translation of which reads:

In accordance with the Colomb-Béchar agreements, France developed the platform in September 1960. It is in fact still not planned, at least for the time being, that the factories located on the eastern bank of the Rhine will have the authorization to produce heavy armament. Designing a new model being a hazardous undertaking, the French engineers took as a basis the prototype of the armored vehicle designed by Batignolles-Châtillon. This offers good mobility while offering satisfactory reliability. It must be said that, despite some modern technical solutions, this base is only a heavier extrapolation from the AMX-13. The question of the main armament then arises. The Armament Studies and Manufactures Department (DEFA) leans toward a 90mm gun (Vo de 820m / s) or a 105mm (Vo de 500m / s). Despite different calibers, the two have very similar ballistic performances and, in the end, quite average. The 90mm of the ARL 44 is, on the other hand, more efficient with its Vo of 1000 m / s. However, its volume and mass do not allow the weight in combat order to be stabilized below the 35 ton bar.

-

The choice of this 90mm would force the engineers to imagine a completely new chassis, thereby canceling out the earlier drafts. To solve this problem, the 90mm CN-90, compatible with the ammunition of the American M47 and M48, is considered for a time, but, as on the vehicle designed by Batignolles-Châtillon, this caliber seems too light to face the thick armor of the descendants of the IS-3.

 

and the original French:

 

Spoiler

Conformément aux accords de Colomb-Béchar, la France met au point, en septembre 1960, la plateforme. Il n'est effectivement toujours pas prévu, du moins dans l'immédiat, que les usines se trouvant sur la berge est du Rhin aient l'autorisation de produire de l ármement lourd. Concevoir un nouveau modéle étant une enterprise hasardeuse, les ingénieurs hexagonaux reprennent comme base le prototype du blindé conçu par Batignolles-Châtillon. Celui-ci présente une mobilité intéressente tout en offrant une fiabilité satisfaisante. Il faut bien dire que, malgré quelques solutions techniques modernes, cette base n'est qu'une extrapolation plus lourde de l'AMX-13. Se pose par la suite la question de l'artillerie principale. La Direction des études et fabrications d'armement (DEFA) penche pour un canon de 90mm (Vo de 820m/s) ou un 105mm (Vo de 500m/s). Malgré des calibres différents, les deux ont des performances balistiques très proches et, au final, assez moyennes. Le 90mm de l'ARL 44 est, en revanche, plus efficace avec sa Vo de 1000 m/s. Toutefois, son volume et sa masee ne permettent pas de stabiliser le poids en ordre de combat sous la barre des 35 tonnes.

-

Le choix de ce 90mm obligerait les ingénieurs à imaginer un tout nouveau châssis, annulant de ce fait les ébauches antérieures. Pour résoudre ce problème, le CN-90 de 90mm, compatible avec les munitions des M47 et M48 américains, est un temps pressenti, mais, comme sur la véhicule conçu par Batignolles-Châtillon, ce calibre parait trop léger pour affronter l'épaisse cuirasse des descendants des IS-3.

 

This would seem to corroborate our previous findings: 1. That the 1000m/s SA47 gun found on ARL 44 was incapable of being mounted on the 25t. The gun could only be mounted on tanks greater than 35t; and 2. That the gun actually mounted to the 25t, called 'CN-90' in this article, was compatible with the ammunition on the M47 currently used in French service, which was freely available to them. So APCBC, HEAT-FS, etc.

 

Source: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/762218283264376836/845321924430135346/TnT_Magazine_N17_Bat_Chat_25_in_AMX_30_.pdf pgs. 15, 17.

Cover: 

Spoiler

Trucks and Tanks Magazine website:

https://www.trucks-tanks.com/trucks-tanks17.php

 

Hopefully this third source will be enough to get the ball rolling at looking into correcting this inaccuracy, if not fix it outright.

 

Thank you, and have a wonderful day!

[blockhaj 3,549]

Thanks for that. With this i think i can complete this report.
The barrel length difference seems valid for the new velocity even with the same cartridges.

 

I will send this to the developers when i get time. The thread will be open for extra information until then.

 

Thank you for wanting to improve the game.

[Very_merry_Jerry 1,200]

The HEAT shell should be M348, not M431. M431 is 1960s projectile.

TM 9-718A, 90-mm gun tank M47, Jan 1952. only T108(earlier designation of M348) is mentioned.

The development of the T108 shell initiated in Feb 1950, and fielded to M47 tanks in May 1951.

The development of the T300(earlier designation of M431) began in May 1953. It is obvious that it wasn't available for Char 25t.

Spoiler

 

On 15/05/2021 at 10:41, nxdefiant001 said:

New shells for the  25T :

 

M318A1 (APBC)

M82 (APHECBC)

M304 (APCR)

M332 (APCR)

M431 (HEATFS)

M71A1 (HE)

M313 (Smoke)

 

Therefore the M348 should be listed instead of the M431.

Edited June 8, 2021 by dlwlehd
typo

[LeGrandSarrazin 725]

On 06/06/2021 at 14:58, blockhaj said:

Thanks for that. With this i think i can complete this report.
The barrel length difference seems valid for the new velocity even with the same cartridges.

 

I will send this to the developers when i get time. The thread will be open for extra information until then.

 

Thank you for wanting to improve the game.

 

I am so extremely excited to share with you the official technical specification documents for the Char de 25 T, which was so graciously provided to us by our fellow researcher anod. These documents completely confirm our previous findings in an official form:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As we can see from pg.1, under Sommaire, or Summary:

 

"Char léger armé d'un canon de 90 m/m sous tourelle tirant la munition américaine du char PATTON avec une vitesse initiale de 930 m/s, perforant 170 m/m à 1600m., possédant une grande maniabilité et une grande mobilité et protégé contre les projectiles des armes automatiques lourdes d'infanterie."

 

or

 

"Light tank armed with a 90 mm gun in a turret firing the American ammunition of the PATTON tank with an initial speed of 930 m/s, perforating 170 mm at 1600 m., possessing great maneuverability and great mobility and protected against projectiles from heavy infantry automatic weapons. "

 

as well as pg.4:

 

"III  - TOURELLE Type T.O.90/930

Equipage : 3 hommes : 1 Chef de char

1 pointer tireur

1 servant

Blindage :

Avant: 60 mm.

Côtés et Arrière : 25 mm.

Toit : 20 mm.

Armement :

1) Canon de 90 m/m utilisant la munition encartouchée américaine du canon T 119 monté sur le char PATTON et tirant un projectile normal de 10,900 Kg. à 930 m/sec de vitesse initiale.

Culasse à coin horizontal

Frein de bouche

Longueur de recul normal : 350 mm"

 

or

 

"III - TURRET Type T.O.90 / 930
Crew: 3 men: 1 Commander
1 gunner
1 servant (radio/loader)

Armor:
Front: 60 mm.
Sides and Back: 25 mm.
Roof: 20 mm.

Armament:
1) 90 m / m cannon using the American cartridge ammunition from the T 119 cannon mounted on the PATTON tank and firing a normal 10.9 kg projectile at 930 m / sec initial speed.
Horizontal wedge cylinder head
Muzzle brake
Normal recoil length: 350 mm"

 

I think that just about covers our bases. I'm so happy we were able to get these docs last minute before the report is closed. We were quite fortunate in that respect.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to this and many other changes coming soon to the Char de 25 T.

Have a wonderful day!

Edited June 8, 2021 by LeGrandSarrazin

[blockhaj 3,549]

6 hours ago, LeGrandSarrazin said:

 

I am so extremely excited to share with you the official technical specification documents for the Char de 25 T, which was so graciously provided to us by our fellow researcher anod. These documents completely confirm our previous findings in an official form:

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As we can see from pg.1, under Sommaire, or Summary:

 

"Char léger armé d'un canon de 90 m/m sous tourelle tirant la munition américaine du char PATTON avec une vitesse initiale de 930 m/s, perforant 170 m/m à 1600m., possédant une grande maniabilité et une grande mobilité et protégé contre les projectiles des armes automatiques lourdes d'infanterie."

 

or

 

"Light tank armed with a 90 mm gun in a turret firing the American ammunition of the PATTON tank with an initial speed of 930 m/s, perforating 170 mm at 1600 m., possessing great maneuverability and great mobility and protected against projectiles from heavy infantry automatic weapons. "

 

as well as pg.4:

 

"III  - TOURELLE Type T.O.90/930

Equipage : 3 hommes : 1 Chef de char

1 pointer tireur

1 servant

Blindage :

Avant: 60 mm.

Côtés et Arrière : 25 mm.

Toit : 20 mm.

Armement :

1) Canon de 90 m/m utilisant la munition encartouchée américaine du canon T 119 monté sur le char PATTON et tirant un projectile normal de 10,900 Kg. à 930 m/sec de vitesse initiale.

Culasse à coin horizontal

Frein de bouche

Longueur de recul normal : 350 mm"

 

or

 

"III - TURRET Type T.O.90 / 930
Crew: 3 men: 1 Commander
1 gunner
1 servant (radio/loader)

Armor:
Front: 60 mm.
Sides and Back: 25 mm.
Roof: 20 mm.

Armament:
1) 90 m / m cannon using the American cartridge ammunition from the T 119 cannon mounted on the PATTON tank and firing a normal 10.9 kg projectile at 930 m / sec initial speed.
Horizontal wedge cylinder head
Muzzle brake
Normal recoil length: 350 mm"

 

I think that just about covers our bases. I'm so happy we were able to get these docs last minute before the report is closed. We were quite fortunate in that respect.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to this and many other changes coming soon to the Char de 25 T.

Have a wonderful day!

Honestly this makes everything easier as this is a primary source, which means i don't have to put in as much work into the final report XD

However with this in mind. Did France have access to the M348 HEATFS shell when the 25t was developed? And even then, is it a good idea to give it that shell? Because if it gets it then it will most likely be pushed to BR 7.7 or similar, which means France would effectively have no tanks at tier 4 BR.

Just giving it AP and APHE might be more suitable as it hopefully can keep its BR, maybe even go down to 6.7 considering its new penetration (AP: 198 mm, APHE: 211 mm), which in my opinion would be more healthy for the tree and the game in general.

[Cedjoe 5,459]

2 hours ago, blockhaj said:

Honestly this makes everything easier as this is a primary source, which means i don't have to put in as much work into the final report XD

However with this in mind. Did France have access to the M348 HEATFS shell when the 25t was developed? And even then, is it a good idea to give it that shell? Because if it gets it then it will most likely be pushed to BR 7.7 or similar, which means France would effectively have no tanks at tier 4 BR.

 

Just giving it AP and APHE might be more suitable as it hopefully can keep its BR, maybe even go down to 6.7 considering its new penetration (AP: 198 mm, APHE: 211 mm), which in my opinion would be more healthy for the tree and the game in general.

The 25t was being developped when the first M47s were delivered to France (1953-1954) and I doubt HEAT-FS was already being sold on the export market at that time anyway.

The first French-made HEAT (obus G) entered service in 1961, followed by Mle 1962 HEAT-FS, and both started development in 1956-1957, so they weren't there at the time.

I can't find sources stating clearly that French M47s even used HEAT-FS during their service, since they were retired early, so I guess it would be fine as you said.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Cedjoe

[LeGrandSarrazin 725]

@blockhaj

Hello again, just wanted to jump in before the report is closed, but France did in-fact have and use US 90mm HEAT. It was at the very least in service during the 1952-1954 period on the French M26 and M26A1 according to it's technical manual:

 

 

As the Pershing/Pattons all share the same exact ammo, I feel this would confirm France had full access to HEAT ammunition at the time of the 25t's development, and would have been able to use it.

We are still working on getting ahold of the French M47 manuals. We have access to them, but one of us will need to buy it to be sure, so it'll take some time.

 

Thank you for everything, as always!

[blockhaj 3,549]

20 hours ago, LeGrandSarrazin said:

@blockhaj

Hello again, just wanted to jump in before the report is closed, but France did in-fact have and use US 90mm HEAT. It was at the very least in service during the 1952-1954 period on the French M26 and M26A1 according to it's technical manual:

 

 

As the Pershing/Pattons all share the same exact ammo, I feel this would confirm France had full access to HEAT ammunition at the time of the 25t's development, and would have been able to use it.

We are still working on getting ahold of the French M47 manuals. We have access to them, but one of us will need to buy it to be sure, so it'll take some time.

 

Thank you for everything, as always!

Thank you. I was just gonna go and send it when i saw this. Also, reports can always be reworked after being sent to the devs. We use an "archive" of sorts.