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The Italian Air TT is dead (unfortunately)


arpitmkn
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To my great displeasure i must announce the death of the Italian Air Tech Tree, I started again to check how many players play each tech tree (soonish I’ll post the results) and the Italian Ground tech tree is still quite well placed....

unfortunately the same can’t be said about the Italian Air tech tree, that is in a very sorry state in player numbers, it is very far behind the French and Swedish Air tech trees, two nations that Italy is ahead in the Ground.

 

here is in my opinion the 4 reasons why this is the state of the tech tree:

1- The lack of a compelling end of the tree aircraft: the F-104S is sort of fun to play sometimes, but it offers a play style that can be found in other 4 tech trees, the Aim-7e aren’t enough of a difference.

 

2- Lack of compelling multirole aircrafts/attackers, unfortunately very few BRs have compelling attackers to use in ground RB, even the Sm-91 and 92 (that in my opinion are the best attackers that Italy can offer) are a far cry from the aircrafts that nations like the US can offer.

 

3- Lack of end of the line jet bomber, Italy is stuck with a mediocre to bad bomber at the end of the line, the P.108B. The entire line of Italian bombers make a total of less than 2.000 matches a month, when aircrafts like the French Voutour racks up over 8.000 matches alone a month. Even Sweden’s bombers are better off because at the one of those, you can find the SAAB-105. The solution here can be 2: the paper CS.11 jet WW2 bomber or the addition of the AMX to the end of the bomber line instead of the attacker line, this would motivate people to play Italian bombers.

 

4- Repair cost way too high, even the best aircrafts in the tech tree, that should rack up tens of thousands of matches a month, get less than 2.000 matches each due to the insane repair costs. I’m part of the problem, because I don’t play aircrafts like the G.56 due to its ridicoulous price.

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The re.2005 got nerfed and it has still a horrible rep cost. The G56 got up in br and in rep cost. The same for the G91YS. The Breda ammo is still not fixed and there is no new content/plane added.

Edited by S__bastienZ88
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3 hours ago, arpitmkn said:

Italy is stuck with a mediocre to bad bomber at the end of the line, the P.108B

Okay I know italy needs I higher BR bomber but the P108B isn't a bad bomber for it's br, it's actually good, a very good bomb load and the ability to destroy 3 bases and have bombs left over, sure maybe the guns on it arnt the best but can be very effective

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Just now, magicman2468@psn said:

Okay I know italy needs I higher BR bomber but the P108B isn't a bad bomber for it's br, it's actually good, a very good bomb load and the ability to destroy 3 bases and have bombs left over, sure maybe the guns on it arnt the best but can be very effective

Yes but it doesn’t work as a motivation to grind the Italian bomber line, something like the Voutour, SAAB105 etc etc

 

there needs to be something there that pushes you to research the Italian bomber line 

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5 minutes ago, S__bastienZ88 said:

The re.2005 got nerfed and it has still a horrible rep cost

It didn't get nerfed, rather completely ruined.

 

It had equal climbrate and turn (Spit wins sustained turnfight!)to the Spitfire LF Mk IX, slower but with better guns.

Now it's worse in everything.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, arpitmkn said:

Yes but it doesn’t work as a motivation to grind the Italian bomber line, something like the Voutour, SAAB105 etc etc

 

there needs to be something there that pushes you to research the Italian bomber line 

The Voutour is really bad, believe me.... It get's shot by a sidewinder as soon as it drops its bombs, or even before... It's by far the most boring plane in the french lineup...

Also French BR9-10 is autolose, so it doesn't even get back the money... My record is 20 games lost in a row... Because you get always 3-4 Vautours and 1-2 Buccaneers who do nothing for the team.

Edited by Xolorn
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3 minutes ago, NoodleCup31 said:

It didn't get nerfed, rather completely ruined.

 

It had equal climbrate and turn (Spit wins sustained turnfight!)to the Spitfire LF Mk IX, slower but with better guns.

Now it's worse in everything.

 

 

I will do a suggestion on Thursday for the re.2005 mm.495 VDM.

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2 hours ago, Dr_Pavel said:

Truth be told it was never that alive to begin with.

inb4 Thunderskill

trend.thumb.png.07fa57daa82c778809a590b1

 

So many of these aircraft are overtiered :(

A6M5, A7M, J6K, Ki-87, J7W, Ki-84 Hei, J2M3/5 G.55 Serie 1 and S, C.205N2, Bf 109 G-14AS etc.

 

If the enemy is a really bad pilot you win, that's why they have good stats.

The good allied fighters completely destroy you if the pilot is competent...

2 minutes ago, S__bastienZ88 said:

I will do a suggestion on Thursday for the re.2005 mm.495 VDM.

What's that?

Would rather have Re.2006 tbh

Edited by NoodleCup31
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5 minutes ago, NoodleCup31 said:

What's that?

Would rather have Re.2006 tbh

It has already been done. And to be honest every thing they need to make this plane can be found at the archivio storico reggiane.

 

The mm.495 is the version with VDM propeller and modified German engine.

Edited by S__bastienZ88
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17 minutes ago, Xolorn said:

The Voutour is really bad, believe me.... It get's shot by a sidewinder as soon as it drops its bombs, or even before... It's by far the most boring plane in the french lineup...

Also French BR9-10 is autolose, so it doesn't even get back the money... My record is 20 games lost in a row... Because you get always 3-4 Vautours and 1-2 Buccaneers who do nothing for the team.

The problem is, as I said, a single Vautour racks up 8.000 matches a month, the entire Italian bomber line does less than 2.000

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4 hours ago, arpitmkn said:

To my great displeasure i must announce the death of the Italian Air Tech Tree, I started again to check how many players play each tech tree (soonish I’ll post the results) and the Italian Ground tech tree is still quite well placed....

unfortunately the same can’t be said about the Italian Air tech tree, that is in a very sorry state in player numbers, it is very far behind the French and Swedish Air tech trees, two nations that Italy is ahead in the Ground.

 

here is in my opinion the 4 reasons why this is the state of the tech tree:

1- The lack of a compelling end of the tree aircraft: the F-104S is sort of fun to play sometimes, but it offers a play style that can be found in other 4 tech trees, the Aim-7e aren’t enough of a difference.

 

2- Lack of compelling multirole aircrafts/attackers, unfortunately very few BRs have compelling attackers to use in ground RB, even the Sm-91 and 92 (that in my opinion are the best attackers that Italy can offer) are a far cry from the aircrafts that nations like the US can offer.

 

3- Lack of end of the line jet bomber, Italy is stuck with a mediocre to bad bomber at the end of the line, the P.108B. The entire line of Italian bombers make a total of less than 2.000 matches a month, when aircrafts like the French Voutour racks up over 8.000 matches alone a month. Even Sweden’s bombers are better off because at the one of those, you can find the SAAB-105. The solution here can be 2: the paper CS.11 jet WW2 bomber or the addition of the AMX to the end of the bomber line instead of the attacker line, this would motivate people to play Italian bombers.

 

4- Repair cost way too high, even the best aircrafts in the tech tree, that should rack up tens of thousands of matches a month, get less than 2.000 matches each due to the insane repair costs. I’m part of the problem, because I don’t play aircrafts like the G.56 due to its ridicoulous price.

really only number 4 is the main problem with things IN GAME. The rest of the problems could more or less be fixed easily if gaijin gave a crap.

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2 hours ago, arpitmkn said:

The problem is, as I said, a single Vautour racks up 8.000 matches a month, the entire Italian bomber line does less than 2.000

That's because of the premium Vautour. It's simply the way to grind the french TT, but it isn't fun.... nobody plays the TT vautours...

To be fair, is there really a reason to play bombers besides grinding? I can't remember the last time I played a non premium german bomber, and I spaded them all...

Edited by Xolorn
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   Lack of content is the worst problem for me followed by poorly modelled aircraft Breda machine guns and lack of indigenous armament, like Motobomba FFF, Sispre missiles and etc.

   Also the fact that Italian related events (even mentionings :facepalm:) get ignored each damn year doesn't positively influence the tree popularity.

  As for the popularity of ground tree, imo this is mainly because of R3 T20)

 

Edited by _Condottiero_
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29 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

As for the popularity of ground tree, imo this is mainly because of R3 T20)

Eh not just the R3 T20, but the centauros and unique tanks like the R3 T106 or the Otomatic are also what draws people to the ground tree.

 

Honestly a way to give the italian tech tree even more popularity would be to give the arietes better APFSDS rounds such as the Shard

 

 

But back on topic, the main problem of the italian air tech tree is the 4th point, where oppressive repair costs as well as overtiered aircraft, aka the G55 series 1, G55S, G56, Bf109 G14/AS, and Re 2005 (not only is the current flight performance unrealistic due to broken FM that has severely nerfed the climb rate and turn rate of the plane). This not only affects Italy sadly, it affects other nations such as Japan where at least half of Japans props from rank 2 to rank 4 are overtiered (Seriously, how is an A6M2 considered equal to a F4U 1A USMC or F4u 1D, or a A6M5 considered equal to a P-47D25/28, P-51D-5, 20, 10, and the P-38L, or a Ki 84 Hei is considered equal to the P-51H, F2G-1, Spitfire mk 22, F8F-1B and tempest mk 2).

 

The thing about the fourth point is that the reason it's even happening in the first place is due to incompetent allied players not able to use their planes right, its gotten so bad to the point where Allied jets at 7.0br to 7.7br are losing to Me 262s despite being in the F-80A and C, F84B and G, and F89B and D. Like at this point its embarrassing.

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3 hours ago, DaGreenBolt said:

Re 2005 (not only is the current flight performance unrealistic due to broken FM that has severely nerfed the climb rate and turn rate of the plane)

I remember the first time when the re.2005 outperformed the Spitfires. The Spitfire pilots hated it.

 

There is one big thing in the war thunder community Italian vehicles can't out perform iconic vehicles like Spitfires and others.

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23 hours ago, arpitmkn said:

To my great displeasure i must announce the death of the Italian Air Tech Tree, I started again to check how many players play each tech tree (soonish I’ll post the results) and the Italian Ground tech tree is still quite well placed....

unfortunately the same can’t be said about the Italian Air tech tree, that is in a very sorry state in player numbers, it is very far behind the French and Swedish Air tech trees, two nations that Italy is ahead in the Ground.

 

here is in my opinion the 4 reasons why this is the state of the tech tree:

1- The lack of a compelling end of the tree aircraft: the F-104S is sort of fun to play sometimes, but it offers a play style that can be found in other 4 tech trees, the Aim-7e aren’t enough of a difference.

 

2- Lack of compelling multirole aircrafts/attackers, unfortunately very few BRs have compelling attackers to use in ground RB, even the Sm-91 and 92 (that in my opinion are the best attackers that Italy can offer) are a far cry from the aircrafts that nations like the US can offer.

 

3- Lack of end of the line jet bomber, Italy is stuck with a mediocre to bad bomber at the end of the line, the P.108B. The entire line of Italian bombers make a total of less than 2.000 matches a month, when aircrafts like the French Voutour racks up over 8.000 matches alone a month. Even Sweden’s bombers are better off because at the one of those, you can find the SAAB-105. The solution here can be 2: the paper CS.11 jet WW2 bomber or the addition of the AMX to the end of the bomber line instead of the attacker line, this would motivate people to play Italian bombers.

 

4- Repair cost way too high, even the best aircrafts in the tech tree, that should rack up tens of thousands of matches a month, get less than 2.000 matches each due to the insane repair costs. I’m part of the problem, because I don’t play aircrafts like the G.56 due to its ridicoulous price.

I think the ITT is quite strong at ranks that in the game don't matter at all infact, apart from therank 3, Italy has a lot of good machines (and with good I also mean playable, not 30k repair cost ones like in rank 4) in the first 2 ranks, I'd love to play more the ro57, the re2001s, the c202s and many others but they don't count for any event nor for the second daily tasks. infact this is why I'm playing USA and Japan rank 3/4 due to the fact that I have already spaded everything in rank 3/4 Italy and it's getting monotonous to play the same 5 machines over and over again.

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On 06/04/2021 at 15:18, NoodleCup31 said:

It didn't get nerfed, rather completely ruined.

 

It had equal climbrate and turn (Spit wins sustained turnfight!)to the Spitfire LF Mk IX, slower but with better guns.

Now it's worse in everything.

You can blame Laurelix for that. Gaijin nerfed the FM based on his bug report, which has since been disproven.

 

One of the rare cases where a vehicle was performing properly and then got broken because of a bug report.

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36 minutes ago, watch_your_fire said:

You can blame Laurelix for that. Gaijin nerfed the FM based on his bug report, which has since been disproven.

 

One of the rare cases where a vehicle was performing properly and then got broken because of a bug report.

 

How did that even get forwarded in the first place???

"I don't have the source, but I heard..."

And it wasn't even taking into consideration anything besides the forum datasheet.

Not the actual flight model code, nothing.

 

The J6K for example has the climbrate that some Wikipedia article claims apparently.

Significantly worse than the A7M which is heavier and bigger with equal engine power.

 

Can I now report that too and say it should be better???

Edited by NoodleCup31
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5 minutes ago, NoodleCup31 said:

 

How did that even get forwarded in the first place???

"I don't have the source, but I heard..."

And it wasn't even taking into consideration anything besides the forum datasheet.

Not the actual flight model code, nothing.

 

The J6K for example has the climbrate that some Wikipedia article claims apparently.

Significantly worse than the A7M which is heavier and bigger with equal engine power.

 

Can I now report that too and say it should be better???

His argument was "look, the J2M climbs worse with a better P2W ratio!"

while ignoring that the J2M has a somewhat less efficient wing design and much more drag.

There was also the possibility that the J2M was underperforming or a million other ways to dismantle that argument.

How the hell does a bug report comparing in game values to other in game values get passed through?!?!

 

Well, we know why it got passed through: Gaijin was looking for an excuse to nerf tier 4 axis fighters, and they got that chance. Look at how Fw-190s fly these days...

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1 hour ago, watch_your_fire said:

His argument was "look, the J2M climbs worse with a better P2W ratio!"

while ignoring that the J2M has a somewhat less efficient wing design and much more drag.

There was also the possibility that the J2M was underperforming or a million other ways to dismantle that argument.

How the hell does a bug report comparing in game values to other in game values get passed through?!?!

 

Well, we know why it got passed through: Gaijin was looking for an excuse to nerf tier 4 axis fighters, and they got that chance. Look at how Fw-190s fly these days...

I remember reading that bug report and thinking how is that even allowed to just use in game values to report a "bug" and get it approved.

 

Doesn't bug reports require historical sources in order to change a climb rate, weigh, speed, armament, or FM of a plane?

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On 06/04/2021 at 14:23, NoodleCup31 said:

What's that?

Would rather have Re.2006 tbh

I would honestly like the Re 2006 as well, but since we all know what gaijin did to both the G56 and the Re 2005, it's safe to say if it came into the game it would be at either 6.3br to 6.7br, or recieve the same Re 2005 treatment where allied players complain about it, make a bug report base on in game values, and what someone heard in order to butcher it, and have like a 30K to 50K repair cost

Edited by DaGreenBolt
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